Arcade

[Login876]

This thread is to discuss about the real meaning of the "arcade" concept in videogames. Is "(B) A long, arched building or gallery" the right meaning of arcade that was related to videogames for the first time? From Amusement Arcade

Flight Cabin Simulators and Police car chase Cabin Simulators offer real life training in a virtual world. These are the real simulators nowadays. Not fun at all, just real.

Real life simulation applied to the control system does not work in videogames. It makes the control hard and the whole game boring. Real life simulation applied to the visuals is greatly appreciated. You get the feeling of been there. The industry focuses its effort in this point.

Control is the key to define whether a game is a sim or not. There are some pretty arcade games with a lot deformation effects, great visual simulations in real time. But that's only an eye-candy. The control system gives you the overall game feeling. And games must be arcades to be fun. More or less. In a way or another. But quite unrealistic either the case.

Amusement arcade classic genres (shoot'em up, beat'em up, gun shooting, driving, fighting) offer instant fun. You just insert the coin and get a short but intense reward.

PC games classic genres (adventure, flight simulator, RTS) are slow to play, you enjoy them during hours, but you also get some boring moments because it's impossible to mantain the payer atention for so long. FPS is the arcade PC genre, instant reward, best if you play online against humans. I think is only appropiate in videogames to use the word simulator to define the classic Flight sims and the racing piooners like Geoff Crammond's ones.

Console classic genres are platforms (Mario, sorry but PitFall is not really the same kind of game) and Rol (pre IBM PC, japanese "adoption" of the occidental adenture). And all amusement arcade classic genres were included, wich agree with the plug and play philosophy of the console. Nowadays the PC adventures and FPS' are also console genres. Online consoles could be the future of admusement arcades.

I think i missed some genres like Sport, wich can be included in all the three classes. I don't really know where the genre started, i think it was in "pre IBM standard" personal computers (used to play mainly).

The fact is that the word simulator is devaluated in videogames. PGR vz Forza, FIFA vs PES, etc. They are all arcade games with arcade controls. But the game wich offer more adjust settings is called simulator, and the game wich not is called arcade. Weird...

But it's even worse. I was asking to myself why the f*ck I had to drive a 35 or more laps race in Forza Motorsport (offline career mode). A friend of mine told me "hey, it's a simulator" [...] Well, when you play the game online most peope race 2-3 laps on 5km circuits and 1 lap in nurburgrin (30km - 10 mins). So it's an arcade game, with arcade controls, played in a arcade way by all people beause that's how you get most fun of it. To drive endless laps during hours is not fun in Forza, PGR, Ourtun, or whatever the game. So a simulator is desinged to make you feel pain at times and the arcade no. Well, it's easier than i thought to create a simulator from an arcade game .

GT: The Real Driving Simulator. Forza Motorport: Racing Simulator. What have these games in common? They are both arcade games, with tedious and boring moments. The only simulation is in the visuals (car deformations, car engine damage) but not in the control or game system. You can adjust and tweak a lot of parameters, and the game is still "go and race 5 minutes" with arcade control. Developers try to patch this by adding some odd 25, 35, 50 lap races: Great. It's like if a Sport simulator game wanted the player to spend the rest of his live in real time matches.

So, apart from linear adventures and few excepcions... Do u think arcade games are the future in consoles?

An anonymous game producer answer the question:

- Where are my 10 hours of pure arcade fun?

* Sorry, this is a sim, so if you want to go online and race with 100% aviable cars you have to spend 100 hours unlocking them.

- I payed for it anyway and i'd live to avoid that hell. My - 10 - hours - now.

* Sorry, but the most expensive cost o a game is to develop the engine. Once we have the game running fine we add the "pain system".

- Why?

* Because it's a sim.

- What about because you need to marketing "100 hours of pure fun" to justify the abusive game price?

* No, because we also lock 90% of cars in arcade games. So you can only play online with the 100% of the cars only if you spend 100h of pure fun offline first.

- That seems quite fair...

* What about copying savegames?

- We are working hard to sign every savegame to a unique console code and also a dvd game code. So you can only play your game in your console with your own DVD. Our patented "pain system" owns you.

* (Owned)

[Mogget]

Not me, I don't want to fucking brake every time I see a corner coming.

Any racing game that doesn't require braking when a corner appears isn't worth playing.

[Hello Goaty ♥]

The Saturn and Dreamcast were everything that arcade means to me.

they were like a modern version of the Amiga & C64 era, when Arcade conversions were all the rage.

[Monkichi 2.0]

For some people, the joy comes from mastering a complex control system or be in a virtual environment in which many different factors need to be taken into account. Personally I would be horrified if arcade gaming stamped out simulation games, but luckily that won't happen.

[Super Lurker]

GO TO THE ARCADE.

Not being funny, but yeah.

[Dimahoo]

Sometimes the sim aspect works though.

Densha De Go was a HUGE hit for Taito on its first release and even today companies still release train simulators as success on the PSP and Ps2 testify.

Microsofts trainsim also had one of the biggest forums at one time and this could happen again once Kuju release the sequel.

I still buy the trainsim games (i have all the Densha De go games and nearly every photorealistic train sim), although i must admit, i don't play GTR.

[Liquid Myth]

GO TO THE ARCADE.

Not being funny, but yeah.

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Whoops!

They all got closed down.

[Login876]

The Saturn and Dreamcast were everything that arcade means to me.

they were like a modern version of the Amiga & C64 era, when Arcade conversions were all the rage.

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F355. Naomi and ported DC version. It's an ARCADE game with complex controls. Complex does not mean real, it's not the police simulator. And it's fun to play if you like to deal with this kind of controls, when the time needed to speed up and down, breaking and cornering is "similar to the real life F355". I think Nagoshi (once he was not drunk) said racing games are a complex rhythm games. So, the key to play them is to learn the correct timing for the main events of the game. The control will always be arcade.

And F355 (pure arcade) is a thosand times more "simulator" than the self proclamed console ones. So simulator is really an empty word nowadays.

About not braking in a racing game. I was playing PGR2 online once. I'm not a bad player, i know the cars, the tracks... i can win. And then i raced 1 vs 1 with a friend. He was 20 seconds ahead in the first check, so i quit and asked him how he was cheating because we used the same car and nobody could do the 20 seconds thing that way. We re-started the same race and he did it again. He had mastered the game at a level he didn't need to brake in most curves normal people do, he had found the perfect timing for some cars...

[BoggyB]

Any racing game that doesn't require braking when a corner appears isn't worth playing.

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I just want to tap the break, steer hard left and magically pull off a rediculously over the top drift at 200mph for a good few hundred meters. Fun times.

[BoggyB]

I spelled "brake" wrong there, didn't I...

Darn.

[bplus]

Any racing game that doesn't require braking when a corner appears isn't worth playing.

yeah mario kart was well shit.

[Mogget]

yeah mario kart was well shit.

Horse shit might be a more accurate description.

[Login876]

The GC version is quite bad. SNES and N64 versions of Mario Kart are great games.

IMHO

[Polmon]

The GC version is quite bad. SNES and N64 versions of Mario Kart are great games.

IMHO

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Couldnt agree more. The GBA version is equally as good as teh 16 and 64-bit incarnations too.

They're all a bit pants one player though.

I must say I disagree with a fair bit of the stuff said in the original post though, you seem to be passing your opinion of simulations off as fact at times. I quite enjoy both the GT kind of racing, and Ridge Racer, they both provide a completely different experience, and are both enjoyable in entirely different ways.

[ThreeHeadedMonkey]

Arcade racing is definatly a win, but overall I prefer more realisim in shooting games. Makes a kill so much more fufilling.

[ianwuk]

F355 is a great example of a simulation. Compared to that it could be argued that games like PGR and Forza are arcade racers in comparison (even though they aren't).

I prefer simulation titles but when the realism gets all too stressful it is nice to be able to throw a car around a corner at 200mph with reckless abandon so arcade racing is still going strong as Burnout and Outrun 2 show.

[Login876]

F355 is a great example of a simulation.  Compared to that it could be argued that games like PGR and Forza are arcade racers in comparison (even though they aren't).

I prefer simulation titles but when the realism gets all too stressful it is nice to be able to throw a car around a corner at 200mph with reckless abandon so arcade racing is still going strong as Burnout and Outrun 2 show.

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F355 is an exception to the rule. An arcade game (insert a quid and get a couple of minutes of fun) combined with a complex controls, trying to simulate a F355 and to be fun at the same time. I don't remember any game like this in viodegame history.

Geoff Crammond games created its own sub-genre in driving games, trying to do real simulations with the tech of its time. So a pioneer of something that did not evolve in the expected way.

So apart this two cases (and flight sims), how many games deserve to be called simulators?

[essell]

GT: The Real Driving Simulator. Forza Motorport: Racing Simulator. What have these games in common? They are both arcade games, with tedious and boring moments. The only simulation is in the visuals (car deformations, car engine damage) but not in the control or game system. You can adjust and tweak a lot of parameters, and the game is still "go and race 5 minutes" with arcade control. Developers try to patch this by adding some odd 25, 35, 50 lap races: Great. It's like if a Sport simulator game wanted the player to spend the rest of his live in real time matches.

give me some rundowns on the concepts of weight transfer, feint motion and traction circles - that are even remotely accurate - and i'll reconsider the idea that you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to car simulation.

[Login876]

you don't know what you're talking about.

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But of course you do.

Great argumentation.

[essell]

i edited my post. repeated for your convenience:

give me some rundowns on the concepts of weight transfer, feint motion and traction circles - that are even remotely accurate - and i'll take back my assumption that you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to car simulation.

[incidentally, argumentation isn't even a word.]

[Login876]

i edited my post. repeated for your convenience:

[incidentally, argumentation isn't even a word.]

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Argumentation \Ar`gu*men*ta"tion\, n. [L. argumentatio, from

argumentari: cf. F. argumentation.]

1. The act of forming reasons, making inductions, drawing

conclusions, and applying them to the case in discussion;

the operation of inferring propositions, not known or

admitted as true, from facts or principles known,

admitted, or proved to be true.

[1913 Webster]

Which manner of argumentation, how false and naught

it is, . . . every man that hath with perceiveth.

--Tyndale

****

Are you english? I'm not. I you are, then learn your own language a little and i'll consider if you deserve to be answered. Arrogant troll.

Arrogant \Ar"ro*gant\, a. [F. arrogant, L. arrogans, p. pr. of

arrogare. See Arrogate.]

1. Making, or having the disposition to make, exorbitant

claims of rank or estimation; giving one's self an undue

degree of importance; assuming; haughty; -- applied to

persons.

[1913 Webster]

Arrogant Winchester, that haughty prelate. --Shak.

[1913 Webster]

[essell]

hehe, i stand corrected.

any justification for your blanket statements about gt and forza, then?

[Login876]

hehe, i stand corrected.

any justification for your blanket statements about gt and forza, then?

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A hundred of tweaks and setups you can configure in your car, don't change the fact that you get an arcade control in both games (GT & Forza).

In the other hand, an arcade game with no configuration (automatic/manual and three electronic assists on/off) like F355 has proved to have a more simulator handling than any (self proclamed sim) console game.

[Super Lurker]

The thing is ratzclarts, that arcade games are for versus. Well, the proper ones. People who whinge that for a squid you only get "one go" on Initial D say (I hate ID, but yeah) or a fighter haven't noticed that when you win a versus game, you play for free. Again. It is winner stays on, in its purest form. Versus on fighters is what makes the game, and if you are good, you can stay on for aaages.

Hell, I spent forty five minutes being challenged by arabs (very amicable arabs, admittedly) on Maximum Tune 2 last night in Brighton. How much did it cost me? One pound. For forty five minutes of entertainment, at least 50 versus victories (4 player) and lots of milage on my card. Win. (I got whupped incidentally, by a "local legend" white nerd with a 815HP card )

Or just fucking play easy games. Virtua Cop 3 takes an hour to beat properly maxing the score out to 99,999,999 using the slow-mo - for a pound. Rjay63 will testify to that.

[essell]

[this post is a bit of a rambling mess.]

right. i'm pretty sure you're vastly underestimating how much of a simulation gt's handling model is.

first of all - and this is important - you haven't played gt as a simulation unless you have played with one of the official steering wheels. the handling model is simplified and moderated when using a controller, to compensate for the unrealistic way you can flick from lock to lock with an analogue stick. playing gt without the wheels it was designed for is like playing ddr without the mats - a different game altogether.

if it means anything, tiff needell has confirmed the accuracy of gt's handling model in an episode of fifth gear - testing the drift and understeer characteristics of different drive cars, impressed at how accurate gt's representation is to his experience driving the same cars in real life.

incidentally, i've played gt4 and f355 a lot - gt with the driving force pro wheel, and f355 at the arcades. i've read lots about real car dynamics and racing theory [some of which can be read here], and in my experience gt is actually much truer to this stuff than f355 is.

i'm tired of ranting on about the merits of gt4 to "non-believers", and you're right when you say that i was needlessly bitchy earlier on, but this stuff riles me up. your snap judgements on the apparent arcadey nature of gt4 are both unfounded and ill-informed.

Real life simulation applied to the control system does not work in videogames. It makes the control hard and the whole game boring.

games must be arcades to be fun. More or less.

you're taking some broad generalisations of a few certain types of game, and making a bunch of knee-jerk simplistic statements about the entire medium of games. who are you to say that simulation can't be fun?

in the context of racing games, well executed, realistic handling models, backed up by an adequate interface [ie good steering wheels] can be great fun. it's about creating a more intricate game mechanic and a deeper challenge - and one that reflects the workings of a real life sport.

To drive endless laps during hours is not fun in Forza, PGR, Ourtun, or whatever the game. So a simulator is desinged to make you feel pain at times and the arcade no. Well, it's easier than i thought to create a simulator from an arcade game .

realistic racing games involve longer races because it introduces pitting and endurance strategy to the game.

take fuel changing in gt4 as an example. as in real formula 1 racing, the amount of fuel in the car is always an important thing to consider because it affects the amount and distribution of weight in the car. this in turn affects acceleration, traction and tendency to understeer. longer races in these games means a greater strategic depth.

...

i'm tired of people saying "i don't like this kind of game, videogames should be like this." if we're so passionate about games, we should be embracing diversity - even when if it leads to types of games that don't appeal to us personally.

[Super Lurker]

i'm tired of people saying "i don't like this kind of game, videogames should be like this." if we're so passionate about games, we should be embracing diversity - even when if it leads to types of games that don't appeal to us personally.

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That is the best and most profound thing I have seen on any internet forum ever by a poster that doesn't use capital letters.

Respect++;

[Login876]

German Police Department should try GT, and fly terrorist will train with MS Filght simulator after reading your post. Blah. Marketing paying pro racing pilots to say while smiling: "Oh, its real, i told the developers how to do it so real" is a nosense. The smile is not for the good results of the "work" he's done, but for the jokes he's forced to say to get payed.

You are right about the wheel. If the game supports all the degrees you can turn in real life, it's more fun to play. GT supports decent force feecbak wheels and Forza does not. F1 cars have a very limited wheel turn anyway.

I've only pointed that i don't consider these games simulators. I'm not alone. I'm not against any game or genre. I talk about racing games beause i like them, not to agree with you. There's no setup in GT or Forza that transforms the standard arcade control in a simulator one. That's the point, no how many things you can modify in the car that also modifies the way you drive the car.

Fact: A game must be fun.

Fact: Real life is not always fun.

Fact: A game takes only that little part of reallity needed to connect both worlds, and even modifies it as needed to make the game fun to play.

[Polmon]

Fact: A game must be fun.

Fact: Real life is not always fun.

Fact: A game takes only that little part of reallity needed to connect both worlds, and even modifies it as needed to make the game fun to play.

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Fact: Everyone has a different idea of what is fun.

A hundred of tweaks and setups you can configure in your car, don't change the fact that you get an arcade control in both games (GT & Forza).

In the other hand, an arcade game with no configuration (automatic/manual and three electronic assists on/off) like F355 has proved to have a more simulator handling than any (self proclamed sim) console game.

Some of the comments you've made about GT games make me think you havent even played them. Comparing them to F355 by higlighting features both games have, is a bit daft, and shows you dont really know what you're on about.

Both F355 and GT allow you to have both manual and automatic gears (as does pretty much any driving game, really), and GT also has driving aids which are configurable and optional. That you seem unaware of this also seems to highlight some ignorance in the previous statement that GT (again, I'm only highlighting this as I havent played Forza) handles like an arcade game, which is complete nonsense. Power on too hard in a GT game and the car will wheelspin, brake hard when driving fast and you will lose traction and be unable to turn. Realistic properties which arcade racers do not feature, and which directly affect the handling.

I cant be arsed to argue whether simulation or arcade games are better, or whether either / both have any merit, as its a bit of a retarded topic, but I just wish you wouldn't spout drivel in order to support your arguement.

[Loik V credern]

The GC version is quite bad. SNES and N64 versions of Mario Kart are great games.

IMHO

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Yeah, tis true. I hate Double Dash with a passion. I think I enjoyed anticipating the game more than actually playing it. So unambitious in all areas.

[SeanR]

you know it's all over once they start emulating clutch control... somehow...