Arsenal

[The Fox]

On the flip side, I'm well pumped about seeing Gervinho tearing shit up this season, right up until he gets Shawcrossed.

[Art Vandelay]

Also Jenkinson pinged it first time of asking on the crossbar challenge at the members day today. I always said that lad was something special.

[FATEone]

Not if you go out and replace them. Well, not Cesc as trying to find a direct replacement would be fruitless, but Nasri ain't all that.

Well yeah. I just mean you can't sell Cesc and then buy a direct replacement. Players like Sneijder, Pastore etc... aren't even as good. But Nasri is clearly replaceable with plenty of guys out there. He's a great player but he's not at Cesc's level and probably never will be.

Arsenal fans are so entertaining. Like those people on x-factor who genuinely believe they can sing, but sound like a cat with it's tail stuck in the hoover.

[The Fox]

Arsenal fans are so entertaining. Like those people on x-factor who genuinely believe they can sing, but sound like a cat with it's tail stuck in the hoover.

I know you're full retard so there's not much point debating with you, but I'll bite anyway. What exactly is it you're laughing at?

[Jonathan_Kerr]

I know you're full retard so there's not much point debating with you, but I'll bite anyway. What exactly is it you're laughing at?

FATEone earlier..?

[Daley]

Kroenke is in the house apparently for a board meeting to discuss the Cesc bid.

[Rev]

Arsenal fans are so entertaining. Like those people on x-factor who genuinely believe they can sing, but sound like a cat with it's tail stuck in the hoover.

If any of them were better than Cesc, Barcelona would be buying them. It's that simple.

[Liamness]

If any of them were better than Cesc, Barcelona would be buying them. It's that simple.

Well besides his sensational ability and experience at the top, all at such a young age, but there's another reason why they're chasing him so fervently. Yes if you put those aforementioned qualities together, he's one of the most valuable central midfielders in the world. There are a few others on or near his level who are seemingly available though. In reality Cesc has become a priority because the fans want him, in fact they arrogantly consider it their right to have him. As such he's become a pawn in Barca's presidental elections. A similar thing happened with Ronaldo's transfer to Madrid, the difference being Barca can't produce £80m from thin air to patch up any bad feelings.

[The Grand Pursuivant]

There are a few others on or near his level who are seemingly available though.

Who?

[Sirloin]

Matt Oakley.

[Liamness]

Who?

Well I think Modric is a terrific player, and will clearly leave if the right club come calling, after Levy's done digging his heels in that is. Sneijder has also pretty much come out and said he's available. Pastore and Pirlo were available, and I'm sure Barca could've had the former if they wanted, not sure if the latter would've moved from Italy though plus he is getting on. Of course it is questionable if any of these players would improve what Barca already have, but the same is true of Fabregas. If they want a squad player (and he will spend a great deal of time on the bench if he moves) then any of them would've been fine. I'm just saying the reasoning behind their chase for Cesc is not entirely based upon his ability, or even the actual needs of their squad.

[Rev]

Well I think Modric is a terrific player, and will clearly leave if the right club come calling, after Levy's done digging his heels in that is. Sneijder has also pretty much come out and said he's available. Pastore and Pirlo were available, and I'm sure Barca could've had the former if they wanted, not sure if the latter would've moved from Italy though plus he is getting on. Of course it is questionable if any of these players would improve what Barca already have, but the same is true of Fabregas. If they want a squad player (and he will spend a great deal of time on the bench if he moves) then any of them would've been fine. I'm just saying the reasoning behind their chase for Cesc is not entirely based upon his ability, or even the actual needs of their squad.

Weak, Old, Slightly unproven (and sold), Old (and sold).

None of those come near.

[Daley]

Well I think Modric is a terrific player, and will clearly leave if the right club come calling, after Levy's done digging his heels in that is. Sneijder has also pretty much come out and said he's available. Pastore and Pirlo were available, and I'm sure Barca could've had the former if they wanted, not sure if the latter would've moved from Italy though plus he is getting on. Of course it is questionable if any of these players would improve what Barca already have, but the same is true of Fabregas. If they want a squad player (and he will spend a great deal of time on the bench if he moves) then any of them would've been fine. I'm just saying the reasoning behind their chase for Cesc is not entirely based upon his ability, or even the actual needs of their squad.

There's no doubt that part of the reason they want Cesc is because they want him back. But I still think he is the best of all those players mentioned (it's a close one with Sneijder and I admit haven't seen much of Pastore so not sure about him.)

But for me the point comes back to this: players this good cost £30m+. If Arsenal sell a player this good there is no way they are buying another for £30m+.

[Takizawa]

Weak, Old, Slightly unproven (and sold), Old (and sold).

None of those come near.

If your 'old' is referring to Sneijder that's madness, he's just turned 27!

[Rocafella]

Sneijder is overrated. He's a great player, but he's not on Cesc's level. He couldn't cut it at Madrid and he flourished at Inter in their treble winning season because Mourinho played a certain system which suited him perfectly. If he's made to fit to a system instead of vice versa, he struggles to have the same impact on games. It doesn't surprise me that now Mourinho's left, he's struggling for form and Inter are contemplating selling him if they receive a big offer.

[The Grand Pursuivant]

Well I think Modric is a terrific player, and will clearly leave if the right club come calling, after Levy's done digging his heels in that is. Sneijder has also pretty much come out and said he's available. Pastore and Pirlo were available, and I'm sure Barca could've had the former if they wanted, not sure if the latter would've moved from Italy though plus he is getting on. Of course it is questionable if any of these players would improve what Barca already have, but the same is true of Fabregas. If they want a squad player (and he will spend a great deal of time on the bench if he moves) then any of them would've been fine. I'm just saying the reasoning behind their chase for Cesc is not entirely based upon his ability, or even the actual needs of their squad.

The only one of those who is even on a par with Fabregas is Sneijder, and even then I think Fabregas is better. He is available, but if you take in to account what Barcelona are actually looking for with this kind of transfer, it's clearly someone who will be able to replace Xavi over the next couple of years. Given Sneijder's age, and the fact that, as you point out, anyone Barcelona buy in that position will be mostly sitting on the bench, it would be be crazy for them to spend that kind of money on someone who will probably be 30 by the time he is needed to be a first team regular. I also think they are acutely aware that Fabregas price tag could well go up by the time they actually need to find a replacement for Xavi, which is the reason for them trying to buy now, as risible as their offers for him have been so far.

[Takizawa]

Sneijder is overrated. He's a great player, but he's not on Cesc's level. He couldn't cut it at Madrid and he flourished at Inter in their treble winning season because Mourinho played a certain system which suited him perfectly. If he's made to fit to a system instead of vice versa, he struggles to have the same impact on games. It doesn't surprise me that now Mourinho's left, he's struggling for form and Inter are contemplating selling him if they receive a big offer.

What player doesn't flourish in a system suited to thier style? He's managed to replicate that form for the national team too.

[toythatkills]

There's no doubt that part of the reason they want Cesc is because they want him back.

I don't think it's even about Cesc any more. It's about Barca being a spoilt child. Barca gets what Barca wants, and Arsenal are like the parent that's saying they can't have any more sweets. Barca aren't used to being told no.

[Daley]

I don't think it's even about Cesc any more. It's about Barca being a spoilt child. Barca gets what Barca wants, and Arsenal are like the parent that's saying they can't have any more sweets. Barca aren't used to being told no.

Well just like all bullies they will have to learn that no means no. Or in this case means give me a bit more money.

[The Grand Pursuivant]

It's more like a hostile takeover than bullying.

[Petrousgyre]

I know it's become fashionable to bash Barca if you're an Arsenal fan - but you have to wonder how we'd be feeling if, say, Jack Wilshere had gone to Barca just out of the Arsenal academy and flourished as a player. I imagine most Arsenal fans would want him back in an Arsenal shirt as soon as possible and would be outraged if Barca tried to sell him back to us for a massive fee. I've said this before, and I'm aware they're not the most popular sentiments, but I'd rather we had sold Cesc sooner rather than later and at a relatively cheap price. The £80 million Ronaldo analogies are ludicrous - they're roughly equal in worth as footballers, but at least half of Ronaldos value is his tied up in his image rights. For me it's not worth extracting an extra £5-10 million for Cesc if it means our relationship with Barca becomes untenable and they never sell us another player (as would seem to be the case).

[Daley]

I know it's become fashionable to bash Barca if you're an Arsenal fan - but you have to wonder how we'd be feeling if, say, Jack Wilshere had gone to Barca just out of the Arsenal academy and flourished as a player. I imagine most Arsenal fans would want him back in an Arsenal shirt as soon as possible and would be outraged if Barca tried to sell him back to us for a massive fee. I've said this before, and I'm aware they're not the most popular sentiments, but I'd rather we had sold Cesc sooner rather than later and at a relatively cheap price. The £80 million Ronaldo analogies are ludicrous - they're roughly equal in worth as footballers, but at least half of Ronaldos value is his tied up in his image rights. For me it's not worth extracting an extra £5-10 million for Cesc if it means our relationship with Barca becomes untenable and they never sell us another player (as would seem to be the case).

Few points:

If we were watching the football and winning the trophies they are I doubt I would really give two shits. If anything i'd feel sorry for the poor bastard missing out on all the silverware.

Also, it's natural that if you have the best team in the world and a shit hot academy some of the kids heads' will be turned by the offer of first team football, especially if they think they don't have any chance of removing the current world class player in the first team at Barca.

I would imagine Barca are hoping to cash in on the return of the prodigal son and sell one or two "Cesc" shirts (their "4" squad number is suspiciously empty) themselves. While I wouldn't suggest he's another Ronaldo there is money to be made for them.

As far as the relationship with Barca and them selling us any players? The relationship is dead and the only "deals" done between the clubs are ones where they pay as much as we can get out of them for our players and Pat Rice kidnaps another youngster out of La Masia in the dead of night while Wenger drives the getaway car. Things are far from civil right now.

[Rocafella]

They haven't sold us players per se. We've taken young players from them who haven't signed professional deals yet, so Barca can't stop us. We pay a compensation fee and that's more or less it. In terms of senior players, it's been one way traffic with us selling them Petit, Overmars, Gio, Hleb etc. I don't think we have a very good relationship with them as it is. I couldn't care less if they didn't want to do business with us again, if anything I'd quite welcome it.

[Petrousgyre]

As far as the relationship with Barca and them selling us any players? The relationship is dead and the only "deals" done between the clubs are ones where they pay as much as we can get out of them for our players and Pat Rice kidnaps another youngster out of La Masia in the dead of night while Wenger drives the getaway car. Things are far from civil right now.

No absolutely, they're not civil as a result of the Cesc transfer saga. I'm not disputing Barca haven't behaved as honourably as they could have but regardless of silverware if a player like Wilshere went to Barca as a youngster to further his career we'd be desperate for him to come back.

And it's fine to play the bravado card and say we don't need a relationship with Barca, but when we're competing against the wealth of clubs like City and Chelsea in the Most Competitive League in the World - than it may not have been the worst thing to have access to the best youth academy in the world that produces players that would fit straight into our team. If you take the emotion out of it for a moment - from a purely business perspective we've sacrificed that for the sake of a few million quid - which doesn't make sense to me.

[Daley]

No absolutely, they're not civil as a result of the Cesc transfer saga. I'm not disputing Barca haven't behaved as honourably as they could have but regardless of silverware if a player like Wilshere went to Barca as a youngster to further his career we'd be desperate for him to come back.

And it's fine to play the bravado card and say we don't need a relationship with Barca, but when we're competing against the wealth of clubs like City and Chelsea in the Most Competitive League in the World - than it may not have been the worst thing to have access to the best youth academy in the world that produces players that would fit straight into out own team. If you take the emotion out of it for a moment - from a purely business perspective we've sacrificed that for the sake of a few million quid - which doesn't make sense to me.

Erm we nicked a couple more kids this summer. They are not going to give us access. You take the kids against Barca's wishes. I'm not sure what playing along with them over Cesc was going to achieve.

[Rev]

If your 'old' is referring to Sneijder that's madness, he's just turned 27!

He's stuck in a way that doesn't suit Barce, particularly and is too old to re-learn it and already failed at their rival team. I think he'd be a rubbish signing for them. He'd fit Man Utd better, but it'll be them that have to adapt a bit for him to be worthwhile because he has more or less proven he doesn't.

[Petrousgyre]

Really, I thought Barca sanctioned the sale of Cesc in the first place. If that isn't the case then forget the above.

[Daley]

Really, I thought Barca sanctioned the sale of Cesc in the first place. If that isn't the case then forget the above.

They were massively pissed off.

Arsenal signed their future captain in September that year, paying just £700,000 in compensation after Barcelona complained to FIFA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1359431/Arsenal-repeat-Cesc-Fabregas-poaching-row-Barcelonas-Jon-Miquel-Toral-Harper.html#ixzz1U4uRrg3y

[Rev]

Which is a large part of the reason they aren't as willing to bid as highly as you might expect. If there wasn't any history they'd have put £40m on the table without blinking I think.

[SeanR]

is there a petition to retire the no.27 shirt?