Arsenal

[Throbin Hood]

There were two victims.

At least the comments seem to be sensible even if there has been a lot of stupid shit thrown around.

[Lucky]

I gotta say, I'm suprised that fans of other teams think that we are just moany gits. I don't think for a second that Shawcross went out to break Ramsey's leg, but like Fuller said, they were gonna go out and rough us up, I'm fairly sure their manager told them to rough us up 'cos we don't like it, and I'm fairly sure that their players went out with the intention to go out and get stuck in and give us a little kick here and there to put us off our game.

Like I said at the Eduardo time, I'm all for a contact sport, mans game, and getting stuck in and all that, but as long as teams decide to 'rough us up 'cos we don't like it' things like this will occasionaly happen. As we've seen, 3 times in 4 years tells us they are happening and that's just too often really.

[SeanR]

is there a "man-hours lost through injury" type statistic for EPL teams?

[Dude Ranch]

I gotta say, I'm suprised that fans of other teams think that we are just moany gits.

I'm not. I think it sums up the utter lack of respect in English football. We'll end up with no overseas talent, it'll go back to a cloggers league. Would you come and play here? I don't think Cesc will use this as a public excuse to leave cos I think he's class, despite one tackle and a gesture yesterday that some idiots seem to think was worse than the general Stoke attitude and, ultimately, the Ramsey incident. But I think he'll be looking at his shins and thinking he'll be off this summer. I would be. Then we can chalk another one up to the cavemen and watch them laugh and wave and pat themselves on their humps.

They don't like it up em, the fucking poofters.

[Nate Dogg III]

I wonder whether Cesc will feel a little twinge of regret as it suddenly dawns on him that people break their legs all over the world.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/23012010/58/...oring-goal.html

He'd not have got away with his injury time reducer in La Liga either, thinking about it.

[Dude Ranch]

I wonder whether Cesc will feel a little twinge of regret as it suddenly dawns on him that people break their legs all over the world.

I doubt it. He'll just think of the kicking he used to get every week and..

He'd not have got away with his injury time reducer in La Liga either, thinking about it.

..the way simpletons would take one incident and make him out to be the bad guy who publicly marks his targets pre game.

BTW, yes that looks nasty. I bet there's no Spanish version of you stinking up their forums though. Lucky bastards.

[The Fox]

There were two victims.

At least the comments seem to be sensible even if there has been a lot of stupid shit thrown around.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF POOR SHAWCROSS

I'm not. I think it sums up the utter lack of respect in English football. We'll end up with no overseas talent, it'll go back to a cloggers league. Would you come and play here? I don't think Cesc will use this as a public excuse to leave cos I think he's class, despite one tackle and a gesture yesterday that some idiots seem to think was worse than the general Stoke attitude and, ultimately, the Ramsey incident. But I think he'll be looking at his shins and thinking he'll be off this summer. I would be. Then we can chalk another one up to the cavemen and watch them laugh and wave and pat themselves on their humps.

I dunno, I saw a pic in this month's World Soccer of La Liga's Filipe sitting there with his foot pointing in some weirdass direction, although to be fair I don't know if that was just an unfortunate accident or whether he got booted by some no mark clogger.

edit: haha just noticed Nate's post about the same thing

[Dude Ranch]

I dunno, I saw a pic in this month's World Soccer of La Liga's Felipe sitting there with his foot pointing in some weirdass direction, although to be fair I don't know if that was just an unfortunate accident or whether he got booted by some no mark clogger.

Yeah, link above. Seems like an accident rather than a tactic against his team. Still, I hope he recovers, obviously.

[Daley]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF POOR SHAWCROSS

I dunno, I saw a pic in this month's World Soccer of La Liga's Felipe sitting there with his foot pointing in some weirdass direction, although to be fair I don't know if that was just an unfortunate accident or whether he got booted by some no mark clogger.

Someone wanted to rough him up. They said that was the way to beat them. The media agreed and said "sometimes you have to do that". The player that broke his ankle for him wasn't that type of player though and was really upset when it happened. He's a really nice bloke honest. He has broken someone's ankle before but he didn't mean that either. What are the chances?

[The Fox]

Yeah, link above. Seems like an accident rather than a tactic against his team. Still, I hope he recovers, obviously.

More relevant is the Witsel 'tackle' on Wasilewski, I guess. That wasn't in this country but it was way worse than Shawcross' (or indeed Taylor's). edit: Bouazza on Kokmeijer in the Dutch league too was just a ludicrously stupid challenge, way worse than anything I've seen over here. Poor fucker never played again either.

I guess the difference is that in these other countries you probably don't get so many apologists lionising that kind of play. I'm pretty sure Witsel got totally bummed in the Belgian press afterwards, and rightly so, whereas here all the dipshit ex-pros and media fucktards seem way too attached to the English Lionheart Man's Game.

[Chadruharazzeb]

Someone wanted to rough him up. They said that was the way to beat them. The media agreed and said "sometimes you have to do that". The player that broke his ankle for him wasn't that type of player though and was really upset when it happened. He's a really nice bloke honest. He has broken someone's ankle before but he didn't mean that either. What are the chances?

This kind of bullshit coming from a group of fans who used to idolise Patrick Viera is stunningly pathetic. Congratulations, sir!

[Dude Ranch]

This kind of bullshit coming from a group of fans who used to idolise Patrick Viera is stunningly pathetic. Congratulations, sir!

This is another one that keeps cropping up, hilariously. You are a dedicated and truly successful muppet. Congratulations back to you, no smilie.

[The Fox]

This kind of bullshit coming from a group of fans who used to idolise Patrick Viera is stunningly pathetic. Congratulations, sir!

Amen bro, that Vieira was just a fucking shitty clogger who went out to kick people off the park because that was all he was good at. Broke loads of people's legs too IIRC.

OH NO WAIT.

[Chadruharazzeb]

This is another one that keeps cropping up, hilariously. You are a dedicated and truly successful muppet. Congratulations back to you, no smilie.

That answers my criticism how?

Amen bro, that Vieira was just a fucking shitty clogger who went out to kick people off the park because that was all he was good at.

Amen, bro.

[Dude Ranch]

That answers my criticism how?

Suitably.

EDIT: Actually, for shame, it's amazing how it always reduces us all to this .

[The Fox]

Amen, bro.

Wait, what?

Ok now you have to be trolling here.

[Dude Ranch]

If anyone missed Sunday Supplement on Sky, here's a link. I haven't watched it, I will later. Apparently you have to stick with it but it goes on to offer some weight to our argument about overly aggressive play in England. Like I say, I haven't seen it yet.

[Daley]

This kind of bullshit coming from a group of fans who used to idolise Patrick Viera is stunningly pathetic. Congratulations, sir!

That answers my criticism how?

[Chadruharazzeb]

It highlights the hypocrisy of Arsehole fans. Viera was one of the roughest bastards ever to play in England and got sent off more times in two games than Shawcross has in his career. So the lesson from Gooners is "It's ok to be a violent thug as long as you're on our side".

[The Fox]

It highlights the hypocrisy of Arsehole fans. Viera was one of the roughest bastards ever to play in England and got sent off more times in two games than Shawcross has in his career. So the lesson from Gooners is "It's ok to be a violent thug as long as you're on our side".

Yeah you gotta be trolling because you don't strike me as being this retarded.

[SeanR]

It highlights the hypocrisy of Arsehole fans. Viera was one of the roughest bastards ever to play in England and got sent off more times in two games than Shawcross has in his career. So the lesson from Gooners is "It's ok to be a violent thug as long as you're on our side".

the current team doesn't contain any violent thugs, THAT'S THE PROBLEM...

well, except vermaelen, fucking nutjob.

[Chadruharazzeb]

Yeah you gotta be trolling because you don't strike me as being this retarded.

What, are you blind or just stupid? Spell it out for me so I comprehend - what don't you fucking understand about that?

[Daley]

It highlights the hypocrisy of Arsehole fans. Viera was one of the roughest bastards ever to play in England and got sent off more times in two games than Shawcross has in his career. So the lesson from Gooners is "It's ok to be a violent thug as long as you're on our side".

No you have him all wrong. Vieira wasn't that type of player. He was a good sort really. An honest pro without a malicious bone in his body. He was just fully committed and liked to get stuck in...

[Arc'Tan'Gent]

Here's some good news as an interlude to today's 'debate'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...nal/8538568.stm

[The Fox]

What, are you blind or just stupid? Spell it out for me so I comprehend - what don't you fucking understand about that?

Ok I'll bite.

1. No one has said that Vieira (or any other Arsenal player, past or present) is a saint. Fabregas' tackle at the end was poor. Gallas' tackle vs Bolton was poor. No one is denying this.

2. If Vieira ever put in a tackle like the ones we're referring to, and busted someone's leg up (or risked doing so), none of us would dare defend him.

3. What has any of this got to do with the two key issues people have? (1 - teams go out to rough Arsenal up, by their own admission, and this has directly resulted in at least one of the players' injuries (Eduardo); 2 - this philosophy is perpetuated by the English media who are full of excuses for the (English) perpetrators. Ever recall the press sticking up for Vieira so vehemently whenever he overstepped the mark? Did they fuck.

[Eats hoops and leaves]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/20...s-arsene-wenger

The unspoken conspiracy against Arsenal

Arséne Wenger says he doesn't believe in coincidence. Three horrifically broken legs in the space of four years would be enough to make most managers suspect something might be a little off. Wenger is right: there is a conspiracy against his team. But it's not overt nor clearly articulated; it comes from a cultural enmity rather than a personal one. Ever since a nationwide TV audience witnessed Wolves beat Honved on a pitch watered into a swamp by Stan Cullis in 1954 – through Charles Hughes ("we have nothing to learn from Brazil"), Terry Butcher with blood on his shirt and England's Brave John Terry – there has been a powerful lobby in English football following the premise that aggression and physical power can overcome superior technique. Wenger's Arsenal play in a way that is unusual even at the top level: no other Premier League team keeps the ball so jealously in midfield areas. All three catastrophic injuries have happened at away grounds – Sunderland, Birmingham and now Stoke – against teams with no recent history of playing in Europe, against, say, the ball-hogs of the Portuguese league. Arsenal are the only team they meet who keep the ball like this. Everyone who visits Premier League grounds will know the biggest cheer of the day is often for a heavy, disruptive tackle after a period of patient possession by the away team. The tackle by Ryan Shawcross wasn't high or carried out with studs showing, but it was excessively forceful, a statement-tackle, intended to assert his own - legitimate - physical power and his team's style of play. This kind of challenge happens to Arsenal far more often than other teams. They suffer more injuries as a result. It's a culture clash. Shawcross is also, in a far more minor way, a victim here, as is Tony Pulis as a coach from the same culture that teaches that the best way to combat superior ball retention is a traditional test of mettle.

[Mars]

Here's some good news as an interlude to today's 'debate'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...nal/8538568.stm

That was last week. Unfortunately, since then we've had to spend all of our money on new limbs. I bet our players thought that the phrase 'bring on some fresh legs' was just a saying. Ha! Those stupid foreigners, bones collapsing under the weight of a bit of grit from a salt of the earth Englishman. ENGERLAND, ENGERLAND ENGERLANAAAAAAAAAAAAND.

[Arc'Tan'Gent]

Great news though; could clear that in a couple of years. Then everyone else will have to welcome the new Arsenal overlords.

[Mars]

From F365:

"And speaking of Ramsey, the type of incident we all hate to see, the nasty injury to Ramsey, and as many (nay, all) have said, we wish a speedy recovery to a very talented young footballer.

The wording from the commentator regarding the incident on Match of the Day was "This is the Eduardo scenario all over again." I agree. There was a lot of fuss made about that one which did not deserve to be aired. It's happening again.

I'm not is saying it wasn't a foul or a nasty tackle, but words like "disgraceful" and "unacceptable" are way out of place here.

Ryan Shawcross went in late on Ramsey, and a combination of the force with which he tackles and the awkward positioning of Ramsey's leg combine to leave the poor lad with a broken leg. I think (channelling Rafa) that the previous statement is a fact.

I'm not going to hit you with clichés about Shawcross "not being that type of player", because it's irrelevant. I'm not paid to assess people's character and whether they are likely to reoffend, I'm here to look at specific decisions and incidents. And I'm saying that in this instance there is a widespread hyperbolic reaction because of a severe injury, which doesn't take into account the magnitude of the tackle.

I am not saying that if I were Peter Walton I wouldn't have sent Shawcross off. If you are someone who believes that Shawcross did not deserve a red card then you have to imagine yourself as the man in charge of the game in which that incident takes place. I think most of us would. You shouldn't be swayed, as a referee, but the severity of an injury, but I defy a human being to stand there and not be the slightest bit affected by that. Peter Walton is human, and when faced with a tackle that he knows has broken someone's leg, I think he had to send Shawcross off.

Remove the thought of the incident itself for a moment, and think of what the reaction after this might have been. Might there have been Arsenal players out there who might have sought revenge on Shawcross? Very possibly, and when Mr Walton removed Shawcross from the field he also lessened the prospect of the game turning into a nasty spectacle.

I have to say this, though. I think that if Ramsey had planted his foot differently, or had been wearing different boots or had skipped the tackle or had basically done anything which didn't result in his leg being snapped, I don't believe we'd be condemning the tackle. In fact I don't think Shawcross would have been sent off. If you take out the injury factor, and simply look at the challenge, I would term it reckless more than brutal.

There is a turn of phrase in the Laws of the Game where it says that any tackle considered to be endangering a player's safety ought to be considered serious foul play, and worthy of a sending off. I would suggest to you this is a very vague statement. I see a great many tackles which are fair but result in injury. Any tackle will an element of physicality is, on some level, endangering an opponent.

I prefer the line where it says that serious foul play is defined by "Excessive force or brutality". I really don't think that Shawcross's tackle falls into either of those categories.

I cannot condemn Peter Walton for the red card. I think almost any referee would have done the same. I am not saying he is wrong. But this is not worthy of a re-inspection of why teams hate Arsenal, a life ban, a lynch mob or any other overstatement of what this was. A poorly timed tackle which turned into a sad, horrific injury.

And that last sentence, in my eyes, could describe what happened with Martin Taylor and Eduardo as well."

[The Fox]

A poorly timed tackle which turned into a sad, horrific injury.

And that last sentence, in my eyes, could describe what happened with Martin Taylor and Eduardo as well."

I'll let them off on Shawcross because IMO it's not a clear cut case of someone going in with a mindset to give the Arsenal softies a kick. But claiming the Taylor challenge was anything but a 'reducer' designed to hurt the player (not bust his leg, but hurt him nonetheless) is utter bullshit.

edit: also this line "I see a great many tackles which are fair but result in injury" is absurd. How many fair and square tackles do you see that snap someone's leg in two? Nonsense.