Arsenal

[Dude Ranch]

That's not just it though. There's this crying foul thing from the Arsenal camp when things like this happen. Granted, it does happen more frequently than other teams, it's most likely to do with the fact the team is generally younger than all the others. That's mostly it. If your team want it to stop happening, they should something like CRonaldo did and hit the gym. It will happen more and more because you have soft players. You might complain about the state of affairs but you were far better when you were the dirtiest team in the league.

My God. Is any of this actually serious? Hit the gym, don't get three snapped legs in bad challenges?

How about Stoke claiming they'll rough us up one day, broken leg the next. How does that look to you?

[Daley]

That's not just it though. There's this crying foul thing from the Arsenal camp when things like this happen. Granted, it does happen more frequently than other teams, it's most likely to do with the fact the team is generally younger than all the others. That's mostly it. If your team want it to stop happening, they should something like CRonaldo did and hit the gym. It will happen more and more because you have soft players. You might complain about the state of affairs but you were far better when you were the dirtiest team in the league. I'd say Viera's not lost his touch after lashing out the other week, but you might do well with a player who doesn't take shit and isn't afraid to dish it out.

We've had some horror tackles done on our players but they haven't ended up as badly as yours have (like, I dunno, when Mascherano got clattered in the recent derby). It could just be bad luck usually.

You're joking right?

[Dude Ranch]

You're joking right?

It's not a joke. That's what he thinks . You can only laugh.

[hercules]

What a joke, i don't believe shawcross went out to break a leg but as we all seem to believe, he went out to put it amongst arsenal like most teams do, rough em up, go in hard, let them know you're there sort of challenges. Is it a coincidence that our 3 bad injuries have come away from home in games up north.....

I hope Ramsey makes a full recovery and i believe he will be a top player, but maybe now the media circus about roughing up arsenal can stop and maybe refs could be a bit quicker to act.

[BlinkyBear]

It's not a joke. That's what he thinks . You can only laugh.

Or stare, dumbfounded.

[The Fox]

maybe now the media circus about roughing up arsenal can stop and maybe refs could be a bit quicker to act.

Haha yeah right. Immediately after the game Richard Keys and that cunt Gray were asking whether it was all because our players are too fast. OH OK GAIS YEAH IT'S ALL ARSENAL'S FAULT - SORRY!

Anyway, I did have a bit of a guilty laugh at this on Somethingawful:

"Fabregas tucks away the penalty in memory of his former team-mate Aaron Ramsey. He points to the skies, where Ramsey is slow-dancing with Frank Lampard's mum."

[Dude Ranch]

"Fabregas tucks away the penalty in memory of his former team-mate Aaron Ramsey. He points to the skies, where Ramsey is slow-dancing with Frank Lampard's mum."

A really guilty laugh here.

[KRP]

"Fabregas tucks away the penalty in memory of his former team-mate Aaron Ramsey. He points to the skies, where Ramsey is slow-dancing with Frank Lampard's mum."

Fucking hell

[carlito]

I was surprised to find myself thinking Pulis was far more of a cunt after the incident than Shawcross.

It was a terrible challenge and this "not malicious" line of justification is ridiculous. It was late, it was high and he went in with enough force to snap both bones in the boys leg - what more do you want? An angry facial expression? A bestial roar? There seems to be some insane reverse-logic coming from the clamp-down on studs up challenges that now unless people have got six studs in the air it's not "malicious". It was a fucking awful tackle and although I am certain he didn't set out with the prime intention of crippling him, if you commit to that type of challenge, that late it's going to be a nasty, nasty foul every time and you've got to accept responsibility for your actions.

Why don't we just fucking drop this "malicious" bullshit and stick with "dangerous" because that's what it was and that's why he got a red card and that's why Aaron Ramsey, instead of finding his feet in the first team, will be spending the next year in rehabilitation.

I wonder what the press would make of it if the situation was repeated with Hossam Ghaly and Wayne Rooney taking the roles of Shawcross and Ramsey in the friendly next week.

[Dude Ranch]

I wonder what the press would make of it if the situation was repeated with Hossam Ghaly and Wayne Rooney taking the roles of Shawcross and Ramsey in the friendly next week.

Bricks would be shat.

Interesting that Shawcross broke Francis Jeffers's leg too.

And remember the tackle earlier this season that put Walcott out for ages? Bolton, was it? I don't recall. That was another one of these premeditated, tactical, hit em hard OTT cowards tackles. It's great apparently. Teams have to do that, if they played us at football they'd lose. That's what opposition managers actually say. English football is dramatically out of date.

[rjpageuk]

Why don't we just fucking drop this "malicious" bullshit and stick with "dangerous" because that's what it was and that's why he got a red card and that's why Aaron Ramsey, instead of finding his feet in the first team, will be spending the next year in rehabilitation.

Having watched the incident live I don't think the ref ever intended sending Shawcross off (or even booking him) until he saw the injury.

[a big boy]

I've avoided seeing the challenge and so I don't necessarily blame Shawcross personally. But I will say I don't think its a coincidence that Arsenal are consistently the most fouled team in the league and their players suffer these far more than any other club. Its so obviously because these niggling little fouls are so rarely called, opposition managers know they can get away with sending their teams out to rough Arsenal up that it happens so much. That's not having a 'physical league', that's stooping players from playing football and putting their careers at risk, and frankly its punishing Arsenal for playing the best football in the league.

[phresh]

I agree, i've said to a few people that I believe the concept of team fouls should be introduced into football. Not just in terms of niggly fouls against a whole team but I remember Ferguson saying last season that teams would essentially rotate the players that fouled Ronaldo so as not to pick up bookings.

I'm sat on the fence with the challenge as their are plenty of similar challenges across the league (and other leagues, we aren't unique in that respect) that don't end in broken legs. You have to have an all or nothing policy regards to punishment as you can't base the punishment on the consequence of the challenge (in situations like this anyway). All challenges of a similar nature should be treated the same, although i'm not sure what that should be. We know that the FA (and again this applies to all leagues) are terrible at punishing violent behaviour, Adebayor getting a 4 game ban for stamping on someones head is proof enough of that.

I can understand people's comments about Arsenal being punished for not playing a physical game but outside of moving to Spain does anyone think their current side would be any better off in the other major leagues? I don't watch much Italian or German football but they didn't seem any less physical to me.

[BlinkyBear]

Mark the day, I agree with Phresh! Team fouls is something that should be seriously considered, if nothing else, it would prevent teams from breaking games up as much and make for a more flowing game that's more attractive to watch.

And from the few games I catch on ESPN, the Italian league is no where near as aggressive as the Premier League. No idea about the Bundesliga though.

[Shevchenko]

I agree, i've said to a few people that I believe the concept of team fouls should be introduced into football. Not just in terms of niggly fouls against a whole team but I remember Ferguson saying last season that teams would essentially rotate the players that fouled Ronaldo so as not to pick up bookings.

I'm sat on the fence with the challenge as their are plenty of similar challenges across the league (and other leagues, we aren't unique in that respect) that don't end in broken legs. You have to have an all or nothing policy regards to punishment as you can't base the punishment on the consequence of the challenge (in situations like this anyway). All challenges of a similar nature should be treated the same, although i'm not sure what that should be. We know that the FA (and again this applies to all leagues) are terrible at punishing violent behaviour, Adebayor getting a 4 game ban for stamping on someones head is proof enough of that.

I can understand people's comments about Arsenal being punished for not playing a physical game but outside of moving to Spain does anyone think their current side would be any better off in the other major leagues? I don't watch much Italian or German football but they didn't seem any less physical to me.

Arsenal are physical at times. Nobody remember the tackle Gallas made on the Bolton player?

In the 90s, Arsenal used to be a very physical team and not one you would want to go physical with. Keown, Adams, Vieira, Bould, Winterburn and even Wright used to give it back to teams. Perhaps one of the reason they haven't won anything for years is because they don't have players who can do that. Teams have been doing it to them since the Neville brothers done it to Pires and Reyes in 2004.

[Rev]

What if it happens to the same team three times in less than 4 years? By players who say they intend to rough up Arsenal? By opponents who have done this type of thing before?

I'd forgotten that was him.

But it makes sense of something else - Glenn Whelan was almost certainly involved in that match for Wednesday. I strongly suspect he stayed with Ramsey because he thinks Shawcross is a cunt.

EDIT: Also, Whelan is ace. I'd have him back at Wednesday in a millisecond.

[MiniVixen]

I wonder what the press would make of it if the situation was repeated with Hossam Ghaly and Wayne Rooney taking the roles of Shawcross and Ramsey in the friendly next week.

English press in xenophobic double-standards shock!

Ramsey is Welsh. That might be a step up the ladder from a greasy Crozilian, but it's still not English. Ergo, they really don't give a shit and would rather defend the offender.

[phresh]

The whole league has evolved though. The difference between the PL then and the PL now is like the Championship and the PL now.

I don't think many Arsenal fans would be stupid enough to defend the reckless challenges by their own players though, but that isn't really the point. The leagues approach to refereeing the physical side of the game is not suddenly going to change to accomodate Wenger's style of football (and in many ways they shouldn't) but that doesn't mean they can't do a better job of punishing continuous team fouling which you might expect (or at least hope) to then reduce the number of reckless challenges.

The whole area of Arsenal players needing to bulk up is a particularly dodgy one. I think one of Wengers biggest faults in building his current team since the Invincibile's is, what I believe, a lack of transition. The physical side of the game isn't anywhere as near as bad as it was 10 years ago and arguably not as bad as it was 5 years ago yet to build a team of relatively small (or weak) players lacking some old school experience was always going to be risky when you have no control over refereeing or how other managers build their teams.

[a big boy]

I think its generally considered that the English league is the most physical major league in Europe, with the French being the second most.

I completely agree about team fouls as well, maybe with the offending automatically conceding a penalty after the commit a certain number or something like that. Although I think the overriding problem is simply the quality of officiating. A deliberate foul should always earn at least a yellow card, so the rules as they stand are easily comprehensive enough to stop scenarios like Gary Neville deciding Reyes will soon crumble after a good kicking. Maybe if refs were ex-players they'd be able to better tell the difference between a mistimed challenge and a deliberate kick. Or maybe if the fourth official was allowed to watch video replays he could take note...

[ckny]

Anyway, I did have a bit of a guilty laugh at this on Somethingawful:

"Fabregas tucks away the penalty in memory of his former team-mate Aaron Ramsey. He points to the skies, where Ramsey is slow-dancing with Frank Lampard's mum."

Fuck. Me. Sideways.

[phresh]

Although I think the overriding problem is simply the quality of officiating. A deliberate foul should always earn at least a yellow card, so the rules as they stand are easily comprehensive enough to stop scenarios like Gary Neville deciding Reyes will soon crumble after a good kicking. Maybe if refs were ex-players they'd be able to better tell the difference between a mistimed challenge and a deliberate kick. Or maybe if the fourth official was allowed to watch video replays he could take note...

To be honest I think that is another issue entirely as the yellow/red card system was introduced when there was infinitely less cheating and a two footed challenges would have seen a yellow at most. Lets be realistic now though, if they can't even sort out goaline technology for working out if the fucking ball has crossed it what hope can we have of them sorting anything else out?

[Throbin Hood]

An eminently sensible article about a few things.

[Shawyboy]

What if it happens to the same team three times in less than 4 years? By players who say they intend to rough up Arsenal? By opponents who have done this type of thing before?

Done this type of thing before?. Yes we set out to injure players every week dont we?. Football requires commitment, which is what we show every fucking game. Would I like to see us being able to hand pick talent and sign the world class players Arsenal have, then see us outplay Arsenal, of course I would. Fact is it isnt going to happen, so you have to accept us "Getting stuck in" if you like.

However to label Shawcross as a man who goes out to mame an opponent is utterly ridiculous, it was nowhere near the scale of Martin Taylor/Eduardo incident a few years back. And Did nobody see Fabregas' 2 footed lunge that went unpunished,a challenge which could have had equally devastating consequenses?. The behaviour of Campbell and Fabregas after the challenge was shocking too, trying to get Shawcross sent off, instead of concentrating on the welfare of Ramsey. That was left to one of our own players to do. Maybe Wenger should take a look at this compilation of stats before commenting next time: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/...ene-Wenger.html

Hope Ramsey Makes a full recovery, when he came on yesterday, he looked one hell of a player...

[Daley]

Done this type of thing before?. Yes we set out to injure players every week dont we?. Football requires commitment, which is what we show every fucking game. Would I like to see us being able to hand pick talent and sign the world class players Arsenal have, then see us outplay Arsenal, of course I would. Fact is it isnt going to happen, so you have to accept us "Getting stuck in" if you like.

I didn't say he sets out to injure players every week. But the fact is that he has broken a players leg (ankle, whatever) before. But i'm sure he's just commited and well, he cried when he walked off so he is clearly innocent of any wrongdoing and not the type to do this. Even though he has done it twice now.

Also have a look at Fuller's "rough them up" comments further up the thread. Is this acceptable?

And if getting stuck in, which results in broken legs, is what Arsenal have to "accept" then is it any wonder that English football is light years behind the continent in terms of technique?

[Dude Ranch]

Also have a look at Fuller's "rough them up" comments further up the thread. Is this acceptable?

No, it isn't.

The thing is, the Prem is really physical every week. We know that, it's always been one it's selling points. When you get two teams who primarily play football, say United and Chelsea, that will still be a massively physical game. Then you take teams like Bolton, Stoke etc. who take the physicality to a new level cos that's their game. They can't or won't try to win at football so they go in heavy handed. Taking it further, they then another 10% of brute force when they play Arsenal. The roughing up factor. So you've got one of the most physical teams from the most physical league going out to be even more physical as their premeditated game plan. And people wonder why these accidents happen. As has been said many times, players don't try to snap someone's leg. But the force of the challenge, the determination to land a heavy blow in the name of tactics is seeing some sickening results for Arsenal fans and true football fans. I don't think there's even an argument to be had about why this is happening.

[Art Vandelay]

Nice to see the Mail out to nail Wenger. Bare in mind what Phresh mentioned about the league being more physical only a matter of years ago and the fact that we've been top or very close to in the fair play league for several seasons. The fact is that teams in the top 4 have moved with the times and attempted to keep pace with the rest of the world and plenty of other teams still idolise some chopper cunt from the 60s.

Arsenal don't play as well if you close them down, we all know that an frankly we're ok with it. The suggestion that you need to kick and hurt them rather than actually compete in a game of football is cowardly and moronic. I wouldn't expect much more from the supporter of a team where a section of their fans were jeering and giving wanker signs to a boy who's had his legs snapped in two.

[Orion]

I wouldn't expect much more from the supporter of a team where a section of their fans were jeering and giving wanker signs to a boy who's had his legs snapped in two.

I saw one lad on tv do that who looked about fifteen. The rest of the Stoke fans gave Ramsey a standing ovation. Come on now, get over yourself.

[Dude Ranch]

I saw one lad on tv do that who looked about fifteen. The rest of the Stoke fans gave Ramsey a standing ovation. Come on now, get over yourself.

Yeah, the 'he's only got one leg' songs came from that one person too.

[Orion]

Some idiots chanting, jesus christ its a football crowd. I remember Dunn getting badly hurt a few years back against Arsenal and some of your fans booing him the whole time he was getting treated and then waving at him as he was stretchered off.

You don't denounce a whole set of fans because of a few idiots.

[Dude Ranch]

Some idiots chanting, jesus christ its a football crowd. I remember Dunn getting badly hurt a few years back against Arsenal and some of your fans booing him the whole time he was getting treated and then waving at him as he was stretchered off.

You don't denounce a whole set of fans because of a few idiots.

The original comment clearly stated a section of their crowd did it. You said it was one person, the rest of their crowd gave a standing ovation. You've now changed your tune cos you were wrong. I don't disagree about the universal stupidity of football fans but the 'get over yourself comment' was daft.