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cubeadvance

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Daley

Daley

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You could spin that round and say Ramsey was going in too hard too then. He was the one stretching for the ball, and it was a lot of his momentum that would have contributing to the break. Obviously I'm not blaming Ramsey for getting injured, but its not like he was standing still and Shawcross came lunging in. Shawcross had possession of the ball at the time of the tackle (well, he was the last player to touch it before the tackle, and the ball was much closer to him at the time of the tackle) so all of these accusations of him being reckless I just dont buy, including the drink driving metaphor posted above. It was an accident. Football is a contact sport and these things happen. Its an unfortunate coincidence that Arsenal have suffered a couple of these in recent years, but that is all it is.

Yes it's an unfortunate coincidence. 3 broken legs in four years is just unfortunate. People saying they have to rough Arsenal up is just part of the game. People flying into tackles with Arsenal players because that is how you stop them is just the way it is. Pundits and journalists saying you have to kick Arsenal to stop them is all fair really. I don't see what Wenger or the players are moaning about. They should just shut up and wait until it is their turn for their legs to be broken. Bunch of pussies. It's a man's game you know. They don't like it up 'em these soft foreigners you know.

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toythatkills

toythatkills

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You could spin that round and say Ramsey was going in too hard too then. He was the one stretching for the ball, and it was a lot of his momentum that would have contributing to the break. Obviously I'm not blaming Ramsey for getting injured, but its not like he was standing still and Shawcross came lunging in. Shawcross had possession of the ball at the time of the tackle (well, he was the last player to touch it before the tackle, and the ball was much closer to him at the time of the tackle) so all of these accusations of him being reckless I just dont buy, including the drink driving metaphor posted above. It was an accident. Football is a contact sport and these things happen. Its an unfortunate coincidence that Arsenal have suffered a couple of these in recent years, but that is all it is.

I don't really understand how this relates to my post at all.

You can't spin it around and say it was Ramsey's fault, because it was Ramsey's ball to win. ie, absolutely not a "50/50."

Shawcross touched the ball last, who cares? That's not relevant at all.

The ball was closer to Shawcross? Was it? If it was - 1) it was travelling away from him and towards Ramsey and 2) only closer because he'd dived in recklessly. There's that word again.

Was it an accident? Sort of, in a similar way that manslaughter isn't the same as murder.

Would it still be a coincidence if three Villa players had had their legs broken like this, within a few years? Don't actually answer that, because you can't.

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BlinkyBear

BlinkyBear

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If we stopped all reckless challenges we'd have no tackles.

No, because not all tackles are reckless.

You can't tackle above the ball because it's reckless; there's a clear distinction there. So why is it people think it's ok to go through a player when it's a 50/50, or to leave a foot in after the ball has gone? It's reckless and sometimes accidents happens precisely because people make bad decisions. The Ramsey would not have had his leg broken had Shawcross made a 'good' challenge.

The simple fact is, we've had 3 broken legs in 4 years. Compare that to other teams and that is some really shitty luck, but they wouldn't have happened had the opposition not been so reckless.

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exwhyzed

exwhyzed

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No, because not all tackles are reckless.

You can't tackle above the ball because it's reckless; there's a clear distinction there. So why is it people think it's ok to go through a player when it's a 50/50, or to leave a foot in after the ball has gone? It's reckless and sometimes accidents happens precisely because people make bad decisions. The Ramsey would not have had his leg broken had Shawcross made a 'good' challenge.

The simple fact is, we've had 3 broken legs in 4 years. Compare that to other teams and that is some really shitty luck, but they wouldn't have happened had the opposition not been so reckless.

All tackles are reckless as there is a risk involved with all and a player will still make that tackle. You can't deny that.

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BlinkyBear

BlinkyBear

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We have yellow and red cards for fouls though. Shawcross was given a red card for his troubles. What more can be done other than to ban tackling totally?

Well at the very least there should be some sort of debate about it.

As Arseblog says today: Song now has a two game ban for collecting a yellow card yesterday, his 10th across 28 games. Shawcross will now serve a 3 match ban for a red card, an incident that left a player with a broken leg.

That, quite simply isn't fair. There needs to be a real debate how to deal with the issue and what action could be taken.

I'm not a fan of the idea that the person who caused the injury should be banned for as long as the injured player takes to recover, as that's just stupid, but there needs to be a threat of something sizeable that makes players think whether reckless tackles are a fair way to play the game.

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Rogue Soul

Rogue Soul

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It's also worth mentioning that the last time Arsenal played a league game away to Stoke - Stoke went out to 'rough them up' - which resulted in 2 Arsenal players being out injured. One of which involved Adebayor being tackled 'off the pitch' by 'he's not that kind of player' Shawcross. I can't seem to find any vids of it but here's a related article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/e...rem/7708886.stm

Loved arseblog's post this morning. Head on nail etc.

I'm somewhat surprised nobody's really having a go at the ref last night. He let so many bad challenges go (before and after the injury). Most deserving of a card or at least a stern talking to - but he always seem to waive play on or completely ignored it. And to give Song a yellow for out-pacing/out-muscling Delap was a complete joke given what had been going on, from both sets of players, throughout the match. Cesc, for example, should have been given a card for his 2nd bad tackle towards the end of the match... even though it was in retaliation/frustration at being flattened off the ball a few minutes earlier which the ref didn't respond to.

Dismal stuff.

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Throbin Hood

Throbin Hood

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All tackles are reckless as there is a risk involved with all and a player will still make that tackle. You can't deny that.

In that case breathing is reckless as it has a risk in it. You could pull an intercostal muscle breathing in really hard, there could be someone nearby with a communicable disease, etc. I think you should stop breathing just to be safe.

If you are in fact being serious then what we are talking about are degrees of risk. I would not begrudge it if an Arsenal player got injured in a normal tackle, but this was a reckless tackle.

In case you think I am just saying this, I have seen someone break their neck in a sporting accident and I placed no blame on the other person involved. This was because it was 100% the fault of the person with the broken neck, they were the one with the poor, always potentially injury causing technique. In this case, Ryan Shawcross was the person with the potentially injury causing technique.

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Throbin Hood

Throbin Hood

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It seems to have been missed but Stoke went out to 'rough Arsenal up' again yesterday. At least that was the stated aim of Ricardo Fuller a couple of days before the game in this article. The fact that this is encouraged makes the likelyhood of such incidents yesterday a hell of a lot higher. How often do premiership players get badly broken legs? I would wager it isn't many more than 1 a year, in the last 4 years Arsenal have had 3. That isn't a coincidence.

May 1st 2006 - Abou Diaby

Feb 23rd 2008 - Eduardo

Feb 27th 2010 - Aaron Ramsey

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Daley

Daley

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Arseblog really was totally on the ball today:

Stoke 1-3 Arsenal : Ramsey's injury sickening - the media have blood on their hands

May 1st 2006 - Abou Diaby has his ankle fractured and dislocated by a challenge from Dan Smith.

Feb 23rd 2008 - Eduardo has his left fibula fractured and sustains an open dislocation of his ankle joint after Martin Taylor's tackle.

Feb 27th 2010 - Aaron Ramsey has his fibula and tibia broken, his leg left hanging in the air, by Ryan Shawcross.

Arsenal captain Cesc Fabregas said immediately after the game:

In five years I've seen three of them, Abou, Edu and now Aaron. What can I say? It's difficult.

I love Cesc but he's wrong. It's not five years. It's less than four years. These kinds of horror injuries can happen in football. It's a physical sport and such injuries are thankfully rare but they do happen. However, I have never in all my years known one club to suffer three of these potentially career ending injuries, let alone in such a short period of time.

Is it just coincidence? Arsene Wenger said afterwards he doesn't believe in coincidence and I'm with him 100% on this one. I believe that these three injuries are a direct consequence of the 'Arsenal don't like it up 'em' ethos which has become conventional wisdom in recent years.

'They don't like being kicked', the implication that the wimpy foreigners can't take it. And it has been peddled across the football world by reporters, TV pundits, radio commentators, Sky Sports presenters and anyone else you can think of. 'Arsenal don't like it up 'em', as if Arsenal were somehow unique in this. Let me tell you, nobody likes it 'up em'.

No other club has suffered three horrendous injuries like this in the last four years. My honest opinion is that the belief that it's ok to be overly physical with Arsenal because, surprise surprise, they don't like it, is the root cause. If I had to trace it back I think it'd probably start with Sam Allardyce and if I had a time machine that cunt would get it good and proper but sadly we can only deal with the here and now.

Before I go on, I'll make this point : I don't think any of the players who carried out these tackles wanted to break another professional's leg. And in that I'm giving Dan Smith the serious benefit of the doubt because his tackle was by far the worst, well late and I think a bit nasty. Even still I don't think he intended to do that kind of damage. Now, let me address the people who say "Well, he's is not that kind of player'.

Duh, you are a fucking moron and you should shut up. Unless the person in question is an actual psychopath of course they're not that kind of player. It goes without saying. Nevertheless they've been told to go out there and get stuck in and give Arsenal a bit extra because, as we all know, they don't like it up 'em. So you have Dan Smith's snide tackle, Martin Taylor's 'reducer' and last night Shawcross's reckless hack at Aaron Ramsey. Did he mean to break his leg? Of course not. Did he want to? No, of course not. The bottom line though is that he did. I feel his tackle was absolutely reckless. Watch it again if you can - via @twistedgambino. If it happened on a football pitch at the very poor level I play at there would have been war, because everyone could see it was unnecessary. At this level of the professional game it was a horrendous challenge.

If I can liken to it something else it's speeding. The young guy in his car who goes out, thinking he's Johnny Invincible, until he careers around a corner too fast and mows down a child. He didn't mean to, but he did it, and he is responsible. "I didn't meant to run the kid over" and "He's not that kind of driver" aren't acceptable excuses in a courtroom so spare me the mealy-mouthed crap over Shawcross. He looked distraught but his tears don't matter. What matters is that a talented young footballer has been the victim of a ridiculous tackle and his leg is broken in pieces.

We know Aaron is going to get the best possible medical care and all we can do is wish the best for him as his career takes an unexpected and horrific diversion. We've seen the impact of these injuries, the fallout is not pretty, and he is probably going to have to battle the same niggles that Eduardo and Diaby have to struggle against all the time. The physical damage is tremendous, not just the broken leg but try to redevelop the muscle and everything else, but so too is the mental damage. Thankfully he's got two guys who can show him the way, who can help through when things get really difficult and when it's time to come back they can help him cross the white line again without fear.

But how fucking heartbreaking is it that we have those two players? I will admit to being rather emotional watching that game last night. It was obvious from the first instant what had happened and I felt sick for Aaron Ramsey. A kid of 19. It leaves you angry. And angrier because this is not the first time it has happened to Arsenal. Nor the second. But the third inside four years and quite frankly enough is enough.

Immediately afterwards on Sky we had Richard Keys and Andy Gray making excuses. "Is it because Arsenal are too quick?", said Keys. Fuck me. No. It's not because we're too quick, it's because we've been on the receiving end of some obscene tackles. "Sometimes you have to play them like that", said Gray, referring to the fact that Arsenal don't like it up 'em. Well, he's the thing - as far as I'm concerned, Andy Gray, Richard Keys, the rest of those utter cunts at Sky, and anyone else who has helped perpetrate that myth over the years is in some way culpable for the fact that Aaron Ramsey had his leg busted like a twig last night. They have gone on and on and on about it and this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens.

Arsene Wenger addressed it already this season at one his press conferences.

I am always absolutely amazed that people get away with it. When we get kicked and lose the game, the question I get from the press is 'oh, you did not fancy that’. But nobody is upset or shocked by it. When we are kicked they find that it is absolutely all right.

And the assembled hacks had a little titter and off they went to do exactly that. The furore over Gallas's tackle after the Bolton game was incredible. I don't remember any pundit saying "He's not that kind of player", only slamming him for what was, I agree, a bad challenge. The Shawcross apologists are out in force today yet these are the same people who made such a mountain out of the molehill that was Eduardo's dive against Celtic that UEFA 'investigated' and tried to ban him. A dive. Yet when a young man has his leg broken in bits they keep their mouths shut or come out in defence of the honest English clogger (any coincidence all three challenges have been by Englishmen?). Honestly, they make me fucking sick. This willingness to overlook acts of horrific violence yet focus on trivia like diving.

Shawcross gets a three match ban, Alex Song is now banned for two matches for a booking that never was. How the fuck does that work in any sane kind of world? It's rotten to the core, is what it is.

And back to Sky for a moment. If anything sums up their hypocrisy it's the decision not to show replays of the tackle. Why not? They say it's because the images are too upsetting. Firstly, who the fuck made them the arbiters of good taste? Why do they get to decide what is and isn't acceptable? People have buttons on their remote which say 'off' or 'channel up'. If they don't want to watch it, advise them and they can turn it off. As the broadcaster who has done most to big up the 'Arsenal don't like it up 'em' thing they have a responsibility to show what happened to Aaron Ramsey. To show what a tackle like that can do. To show that when you egg people on enough and they think it's ok to behave recklessly that there are consequences.

For Ramsey it's a broken leg and a year out of the game, all going well. For Arsenal we lose a talented player at a crucial part of the season ... and we have to watch another of our lads injured in a way that would bring tears to your eyes. And there are consequences even for Shawcross who I think was utterly reckless. The tackle on Ramsey was not his first wild lunge of the night but he's been told to go out and play like that. He didn't want to break Ramsey's leg. I'm sure it'll make him sick, give him nightmares and all the rest. I'm not suggesting he's a victim by any means but he is a byproduct of this media led scheme too. I don't feel sorry for him but I think it's a fair point in the grand scheme of things.

I'm sure there are some reading this who will say 'Arsenal aren't whiter than white'. And that's true. No team that plays a high intensity physical sport can say that. Yet no other team has been on the receiving end of the kind of injuries we have. That is a fact. One you can put down to an accident, two could be just unfortunate, three ... too much. And enough is enough. I'm sure this will get plenty of coverage on Arsenal blogs, many of whom I'm sure feel the same way about this as I do, but there are good journalists and sports writers out there who also have a platform and, in my opinion, a duty to address this issue. If they love football then they can't ignore this.

Some will, Shawcross has been called up the England squad which affords a player a certain amount of protection from the most jingoistic and snide journalists. I do hope there are others who will take up the baton though. Not against Shawcross in particular but on the general issue. It is not ok to kick Arsenal, or any other team, out of a game. We all love the physical aspect of football, it's part of what makes it such a great game, but there's a line you don't cross and too often now teams have crossed it with us, without so much as a word of condemnation. Instead there's the sly smile, the snigger and the sneering about how 'Arsenal don't like it up 'em'.

It is not acceptable. The consequences of that mindset were obvious last night as a 19 year old boy screamed in agony as his leg hung at a sickening angle. This is the outcome of your sly smiling and your sneering. Are you happy now?

Before I finish on this particular section, props to Stoke's Glen Whelan who stayed with Aaron Ramsey from the moment it happened. A cut above the rest. To the Stoke fans who applauded Aaron off the field, fair play to you. To the rest who chanted abuse as he lay injured and gave him wanker signs as he was taken off the pitch on a stretcher, you are fucking pondlife. I hope you die roaring.

Finally, it seems a bit trite and redundant but I want to wish Aaron Ramsey all the best and I hope we see him back in an Arsenal shirt, where he belongs, as soon as possible.

http://www.oleole.com/blogs/arseblog

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Naysonymous

Naysonymous

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Not really. Its more of a case of pointing out that you are only prepared to piss into the wind for so long. You've made your arguments, I've made mine. We obviously dont agree. Just saying that its funny how its only really sections of the Arsenal support who see it as a hideous challenge while the rest of us see it as an accident. Ramsey and Shawcross both went in for a ball, Ramsey got hurt. Its football. It happens.

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Daley

Daley

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Not really. Its more of a case of pointing out that you are only prepared to piss into the wind for so long. You've made your arguments, I've made mine. We obviously dont agree. Just saying that its funny how its only really sections of the Arsenal support who see it as a hideous challenge while the rest of us see it as an accident. Ramsey and Shawcross both went in for a ball, Ramsey got hurt. Its football. It happens.

What if it happens to the same team three times in less than 4 years? By players who say they intend to rough up Arsenal? By opponents who have done this type of thing before?

2hno10x.jpg

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Throbin Hood

Throbin Hood

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Just saying that its funny how its only really sections of the Arsenal support who see it as a hideous challenge while the rest of us see it as an accident. Ramsey and Shawcross both went in for a ball, Ramsey got hurt. Its football. It happens.

It is an accident, but it was completely avoidable. The word avoidable is what rankles most.

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Daley

Daley

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And you'd think he'd committed murder if you listened to Arsenal fans...

No. No one is saying that. All we are saying is maybe, just maybe the fact that Shawcross was reckless is what led to the injury. And the fact that a team mate of his said he intended to rough up Arsenal adds weight to this. And the fact that it has now happened three times in 4 years adds further weight to this.

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Dude Ranch

Dude Ranch

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And you'd think he'd committed murder if you listened to Arsenal fans...

He snapped a guys leg in half in an unnecessarily hard challenge days after his team mate got paid to tell a newspaper how Stoke would be going out to rough Arsenal up. So, no. Not murder. It's the acceptable side of 21st century football.

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Daley

Daley

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Woah, he made an unnecessarily hard challenge? Our team never does that.

Made in a friendly match soon after that Eduardo challenge. No-one is innocent.

You really think that is the same? You really think Diaby was trying to clatter him there and was not looking and aiming his tackle at the ball? We are seeing different things.

Also, nobody said Arsenal are innocent.

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Dude Ranch

Dude Ranch

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Woah, he made an unnecessarily hard challenge? Our team never does that.

Made in a friendly match soon after that Eduardo challenge. No-one is innocent.

You should be a lawyer with a defence like that.

"But, your honour, someone else did something or other once. I rest my case."

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Kelthink

Kelthink

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That's not just it though. There's this crying foul thing from the Arsenal camp when things like this happen. Granted, it does happen more frequently than other teams, it's most likely to do with the fact the team is generally younger than all the others. That's mostly it. If your team want it to stop happening, they should something like CRonaldo did and hit the gym. It will happen more and more because you have soft players. You might complain about the state of affairs but you were far better when you were the dirtiest team in the league. I'd say Viera's not lost his touch after lashing out the other week, but you might do well with a player who doesn't take shit and isn't afraid to dish it out.

We've had some horror tackles done on our players but they haven't ended up as badly as yours have (like, I dunno, when Mascherano got clattered in the recent derby). It could just be bad luck usually.

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