Arsenal

[Kelthink]

Yeah plus the Fabregas extra protection comments. He obviously forgot about didn't see his tackle at the end.

You missed a bit there

[BlinkyBear]

All the 'give Shawcross a break' comments. Have you actually watched it since?

I'll admit to still being affected by it but, but watch it. He's not even trying to win the ball cleanly. Defend it all you like, but that isn't a horrific challenge, so much as a purely reckless tackle designed to annoy. There's a lot of bad luck involved, sure, but the bad luck occurs becaue Shawcross fails to tackle 'properly'.

[Art Vandelay]

If you cast your minds back, Arsenal had 3 players stretchered off after horrific challenges were put on them by Bolton players. If you genuinely don't believe that Sam Allardyce sent them out there to do just that then I think you're being naive. I think Wenger is wrong in this case, but that's 3 seasons in a row now that we've had terrible injuries at the hands of bad tackles. I can see why he gets annoyed.

For the record, this 'they don't like it up 'em' tactic started when Gary Neville did a world class hatchet job on Reyes that time that effectively ended his time in English football. As if you needed another reason to dislike him.

[Art Vandelay]

Actually you know what, that challenge is fucking wild and totally unnecessary. Fuck feeling sorry for the dosey twat.

[exwhyzed]

Yes lets ban tackling.

[BlinkyBear]

Yes lets ban tackling.

I hope you're just a fucking idiot that doesn't know any better as anyone with half a brain can see what we're on about.

Tackling isn't the same ad breaking someones leg as trying to wind someone up as to 'put a reducer on them'.

[Mars]

Exwhyzee: Or, rather, let's try to minimise reckless tackles? I don't think Wenger's comments were too wise (Pulis was obviously very affected by it) as it just makes it easier for his critics to take a swipe. However, when you combine the widely held view that the most effective way to stop Arsenal is to kick them with the serious injuries that our players have suffered then it certainly gets you down. We're no angels ourselves though, despite no red cards this season, it's just a horrible thing to happen full stop.

[exwhyzed]

Exwhyzee: Or, rather, let's try to minimise reckless tackles? I don't think Wenger's comments were too wise (Pulis was obviously very affected by it) as it just makes it easier for his critics to take a swipe. However, when you combine the widely held view that the most effective way to stop Arsenal is to kick them with the serious injuries that our players have suffered then it certainly gets you down. We're no angels ourselves though, despite no red cards this season, it's just a horrible thing to happen full stop.

Yes but the idea that Shawcross had no right to go for the ball is ludicrous. The trouble is trying to keep the physical side of the game while stopping injuries happening. This case I think was just awful luck to have his leg break from what looks like a genuine attempt to win a 50/50 ball.

[Mars]

Where did I say he had no right to go for the ball?! It was reckless though, 50/50 shouldn't mean you either get the ball or absolutely cunt your opponent.

[exwhyzed]

I was talking to Art. And Shawcross didn't "cunt" his opponent. When you "cunt" your opponent you do a Taylor or Keane. This would be a yellow card challenge if his leg hadn't broken.

[sprite]

When I've seen the clip back it just strikes me that Shawcross is a bit.. tunnel-vision'd about it all, maybe? I mean he sort of had the ball, it got away from him, he goes for it but Ramsey was quicker. It's not as though he went in three seconds too late or anything, it was all very quick, and it was the way Ramsey landed that seems to have done his leg (rather than it being due to being on the receiving end of Shawcross' boot).

I think Shawcross' turmoil over it all was genuine, but will of course be nothing compared to Ramsey's. Poor lad, hope he can get back to form.

[mop]

It's hard not to throw in my two cent on the fucking insanely horrfic tackle....and I won't. I can't. I actually got quite emotional when I saw it the pub. I'll wait untill tomorrow, when I've sobered up, to talk about it.

What I will say, and I'm sure it's been said already, but to go on and win the fucking game after that, when we failed to do just that when it happened to Ed, is a fantastic thing to see this team do. Cesc's group hug at the end of the game was just pure fucking ace. The goal celebrations were so full of emotion it made me think, for a second, this team can actually care.

We are the arsenal!!!

I probably shouldn't post while pissed...or even ever. Forgive this half assed waffle.

[Naysonymous]

This was a fucking insanely horrific tackle. Shawcross' was unfortunate at worst. Anybody who thinks he went to hurt the man is a fucking idiot, and that includes Mr Wenger.

[mop]

Just to make it clear, from mt point of view, when I say horrific, I am only talking about the outcome, not the intent, of which I think existed none.

I really doubt anyone, in the whole of this forum, thought he went out there to break the lads leg.

[Naysonymous]

Maybe not. Its just something I saw elsewhere on the internets in response to Arsenal fans who are calling for Shawcross' head. I know its virtually impossible to tell how seriously to take some of the people making comments about how the lad should be strung up for the heinous crime of injuring an Arsenal player given that half of em are either drunk, trolls or fourteen year old kids, but the comments that Wenger made after the game were fairly stupid. I generally have a lot of sympathy with Wenger as pretty much anything he says gets jumped on by people who dont like Arsenal, but the bloke was talking bollocks and stirring up shit that he didnt need to after the game. I thought he was a bit better than that.

[mop]

Ìn fact, even right now, pissed, I don't put much, if any, blame on Shawcross. Really, I don't blame him at all.

I just feel fucking gutted for Ramsey.

EDIT: just read your reply, neyson, and a lot of it is pretty much on the money, I would say that wengers comments after this, were a lot, LOT, less emotional and stupid then after Ed's tackle.

Not to say he's right in what he said, but just that he held back more so then he did so the last time.

EDIT2:Thing is, he is talking about his player, I would never expect him (or any manger) to be 100% level headed when shit like this happens. Bias will leak through. Of course.

[Art Vandelay]

I was talking to Art. And Shawcross didn't "cunt" his opponent. When you "cunt" your opponent you do a Taylor or Keane. This would be a yellow card challenge if his leg hadn't broken.

No-one is suggesting the guy went out to break his leg. Possibly what we're saying is that it was pretty reckless. It was an agricultural and wild challenge put in because that's what you do against good teams. He probably only had eyes for the ball, Stoke are hardly a dirty team, but if he wasn't pumped up to play hard he wouldn't have gone steaming in like that.

If I went out drink driving I'd get away with it most weekends, but sooner or later I'd probably end up hurting someone. You'd obviously be devestated and you didn't mean to do it, but i'd imagine there wouldn't be a line of people feeling sorry for me.

[Kelthink]

No-one is suggesting the guy went out to break his leg. Possibly what we're saying is that it was pretty reckless. It was an agricultural and wild challenge put in because that's what you do against good teams. He probably only had eyes for the ball, Stoke are hardly a dirty team, but if he wasn't pumped up to play hard he wouldn't have gone steaming in like that.

If I went out drink driving I'd get away with it most weekends, but sooner or later I'd probably end up hurting someone. You'd obviously be devestated and you didn't mean to do it, but i'd imagine there wouldn't be a line of people feeling sorry for me.

Except most non-Arsenal fans understand yesterday's challenge was just an unfortunate event. That's it. There's little you can change about the game to prevent it from happening again, it was just an accident.

[toythatkills]

Except most non-Arsenal fans understand yesterday's challenge was just an unfortunate event. That's it. There's little you can change about the game to prevent it from happening again, it was just an accident.

Not really relevant, you know? What makes a non-Arsenal fan any less biased?

[Naysonymous]

Because their judgement isnt clouded by seeing one of their better players with a serious injury?

[toythatkills]

So? Nobody's 100% impartial.

[Throbin Hood]

This takes the piss

Edit: Arseblog was excellent today, great analogy with the drunk driver

[neoELITE]

Ballack's challenge on Tevez yesterday was equally as bad but Tevez was lucky whereas Ramsay wasn't. Ballack meant to go through the back of Tevez whereas Shawcross was just late. If Wenger honestly thought that Shawcross meant to break Ramsay's leg, he obviously didn't see the reaction as Shawcross left the field.

I've broken a leg playing football and I've also broken someone else's leg too and neither incidents were deliberate; it is unfortunately something that can and does happen on a pitch.

[Naysonymous]

So? Nobody's 100% impartial.

Really?

Even if that is the case, some are less impartial than others. Just look at the twats who were wearing "TEAM TERRY" shirts at Stamford Bridge yesterday. If your club is involved then you will feel some emotional charge when one of your players is lying on the deck with a broken leg. Watching it as an interested third party, I am a Villa fan (so if anything I should hate Stoke as they are somewhat local to me) I just saw an unfortunate incident happen in a contact sport. Shawcross didnt mean to hurt Ramsey. It wasnt a vicious tackle, it was a man going for a 50/50 ball.

[BlinkyBear]

Really?

Even if that is the case, some are less impartial than others. Just look at the twats who were wearing "TEAM TERRY" shirts at Stamford Bridge yesterday. If your club is involved then you will feel some emotional charge when one of your players is lying on the deck with a broken leg. Watching it as an interested third party, I am a Villa fan (so if anything I should hate Stoke as they are somewhat local to me) I just saw an unfortunate incident happen in a contact sport. Shawcross didnt mean to hurt Ramsey. It wasnt a vicious tackle, it was a man going for a 50/50 ball.

I just don't understand how people think that the tackle is a 'normal' challenge for a 50/50 ball. It's not a two footed over the top hatchet job, but just look where Shawcross 'finishes'-the sheer power and velocity that he purposefully uses means that it's reckless to the point of malicious. It was unlucky that his leg was broken, but it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't gone in so unnecessarily hard.

Art's and Arseblog's comparison about driving recklessly are exactly the point: you can't claim to be wholly innocent if you're acting recklessly: that was a reckless challenge.

[toythatkills]

Shawcross didnt mean to hurt Ramsey. It wasnt a vicious tackle, it was a man going for a 50/50 ball.

Well obviously he didn't mean to hurt him, that's not the issue.

It was far from a 50/50 challenge though. Shawcross lost control of the ball and dived in recklessly (or clumsily if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt). He dived in because he knew that if he didn't dive in, Ramsey was going to beat him to the ball. That's not 50/50.

[Naysonymous]

You could spin that round and say Ramsey was going in too hard too then. He was the one stretching for the ball, and it was a lot of his momentum that would have contributing to the break. Obviously I'm not blaming Ramsey for getting injured, but its not like he was standing still and Shawcross came lunging in. Shawcross had possession of the ball at the time of the tackle (well, he was the last player to touch it before the tackle, and the ball was much closer to him at the time of the tackle) so all of these accusations of him being reckless I just dont buy, including the drink driving metaphor posted above. It was an accident. Football is a contact sport and these things happen. Its an unfortunate coincidence that Arsenal have suffered a couple of these in recent years, but that is all it is.

[Throbin Hood]

I just saw an unfortunate incident happen in a contact sport. Shawcross didnt mean to hurt Ramsey. It wasnt a vicious tackle, it was a man going for a 50/50 ball.

An open 50/50 ball isn't license to go in like a crazy person. Going to ground and swinging through the ball meant no good could come of the challenge. If he wins the ball it goes flying out of play, if he doesn't then there is the possibility of what happened happening. The point of going in like that is to crunch the other guy so they feel the challenge.

Ballack's challenge on Tevez yesterday was equally as bad but Tevez was lucky whereas Ramsay wasn't. Ballack meant to go through the back of Tevez whereas Shawcross was just late. If Wenger honestly thought that Shawcross meant to break Ramsay's leg, he obviously didn't see the reaction as Shawcross left the field.

I've broken a leg playing football and I've also broken someone else's leg too and neither incidents were deliberate; it is unfortunately something that can and does happen on a pitch.

This is all true, he didn't mean to break his leg but he did go in recklessly. He therefore has to be responsible for that recklessness, in this case a broken leg.

[Throbin Hood]

You could spin that round and say Ramsey was going in too hard too then. He was the one stretching for the ball, and it was a lot of his momentum that would have contributing to the break. Obviously I'm not blaming Ramsey for getting injured, but its not like he was standing still and Shawcross came lunging in. Shawcross had possession of the ball at the time of the tackle (well, he was the last player to touch it before the tackle, and the ball was much closer to him at the time of the tackle) so all of these accusations of him being reckless I just dont buy, including the drink driving metaphor posted above. It was an accident. Football is a contact sport and these things happen. Its an unfortunate coincidence that Arsenal have suffered a couple of these in recent years, but that is all it is.

Saying Shawcross was closer to the ball is plain bullshit. Ramsay toes it (while standing over it) and Shawcross is in a full stretch dive/slide. One obviously has control of their movement, the other doesn't.

The unfortunate coincidence isn't a coincidence when this sort of shit is not just tolerated but celebrated. Check the date. That sort of shit in any other sport gets you hauled up in front of the powers that be and fined or banned.

[exwhyzed]

If we stopped all reckless challenges we'd have no tackles. All players disregard some risks when they go in for a challenge. It's part of the game, and unfortunately someone got hurt.