Arsenal

[Cosmic_Guru]

I think its easy to forget the situation the club was in when Arsene took over. We had won nothing for 5-6 years and the type of football the club was playing, even with some of the players we had, was pretty poor. From a footballing perspective the Graham years were also dark one's albeit fairly successful.

Arsene's advantage initially was that he brought all of these new ideas to the PL. Training, fitness, diet, scouting etc. For a long time all of the other clubs were playing catchup and it was really only the blossoming youth at ManUtd (Beckham etc) and their money that prevented us from dominating during that period.

What Arsene was good at (and still is) was spotting potential and then nurturing it. I honestly don't believe that the likes of Paddy, Petit, Overmars, Henry, Anelka and the like would have reached such a level without him. I think most of them have actually stated this. He is also great at spotting when a players time is up. Although they moved onto historically bigger clubs, players like Vieira, Petit, Overmars, Gilberto, Lauren etc didn't reach the same level as they did at Arsenal. Although its early days the same could be said of Hleb and Flamini.

I don't think the team is far off of winning something although we do need some experienced cover at CB and CM. We also don't really know whats going on financially. Some say we have money to spend, some say we haven't. Its probably in the middle. We have money to spend but not to make wholesale changes with and we need to be shrewd.

It'll be interesting if the Usmanov rumours are true and funds are freed up for players, whether it gets spent or not.

Got to pull you up there. We only had 2 barren seasons and one of those included a major cup final (admittedly the league form for 93 and 94 was absolutely dire). The record is:

1993 - FA & League cups against the same opposition

1994 - European Cup Winners

1995 - reached ECW final again

1996 - no trophies but I remember a sense of jubilation at our final league position compared to the previous season - we qualified for Europe with Bergkamp scoring a cracking goal towards the end of the game v Bolton

1997 - First AW season

1998 - Double Winners

The main reasons for AW initial success were, in my opinion naturally, his ability to refresh and energise the back 5 which had been drilled for years and years by Graham so needed absolutely no addtional defensive coaching, allied with the introduction of some actual quality in midfield (another indelible memory is that of Vieira striding on to the pitch as sub against Sheff Wednesday), and pace up front. The consensus was that George Graham got into a deep rut and in the end it was fortunate that he provided the board with a handy excuse to sack him or he might have carried on for years more - his trophy haul was excellent in the years he was in charge. I also remember being shocked to hear about the sacking of Bruce Rioch in August 1996.

On the whole I think Wenger has got it right in terms of shipping older players out with the two exceptions of Pires who is still effective, if from the bench maybe, at Villarreal, and the whole sad episode with Gilberto and the bungled captaincy (I think Diarra was a bad egg who could not be kept once he know Real Madrid were after him).

At the moment we are undoubtedly the weakest of the big 4 and all developments over the summer will be scrutinised closely. I don't expect a lot of movement but would personally drive Adebayor and Diaby to Milan for their medicals (which would probably be failed by Diaby at least). There are lots of kids and fringe players coming back from loan spells who may be moved on to help funding new defensive talent to some degree at least. Offensively, as Arsene would say, I dont think we lack a great deal when we can call on our main players , although it would help greatly if they would be played in their best positions, but sometimes I cant help being wistful for a real striker. Sounds a bit odd, and maybe Eduardo will be that man in time, but someone with a real nose for a goal, and the ability to stay onside etc, would only flourish when we are playing at all well and creating good penetration.

Ramble over

[Daley]

Offensively, as Arsene would say, I dont think we lack a great deal when we can call on our main players , although it would help greatly if they would be played in their best positions, but sometimes I cant help being wistful for a real striker. Sounds a bit odd, and maybe Eduardo will be that man in time, but someone with a real nose for a goal, and the ability to stay onside etc, would only flourish when we are playing at all well and creating good penetration.

Good post. I especially agree with this bit. The other day Bendtner was on the left, Nasri was central midfield and Cesc was off the striker. I was waiting for Adebayor to get in goal. He'd still manage to be offside probably.

[BlinkyBear]

It's nice to see that since my large post, one person agreed almost exactly with my ideal XI for next year, one person agreed with me about Wenger re-energising the team we had when we came and the only real person who disagreed was the non-Gooner.

I've been thinking again about the backroom staff, and I really do think we need to freshen things up with proven quality coaches who can relate to the 'kids'. If we're not going to have much experience on the pitch, then at the least we should have proven trophy winning experience off it.

Also, someone on the Guardian Football Weekly blog made the very astute point about Wenger saying that he won't buy much, if at all this summer; we might have money, but we're not the richest club in the world when it comes to cash flow. He's a very clever man and in coming out publically and saying we need a CB and CM, there is a very real chance that suddenly Wenger could be pricing himself out of markets because club's know exactly what he's after: just look at the prices Man City have been apparently quoted for players for an idea of how demand is affecting valuation.

Or this just could be very wishful thinking and in fact Wenger will do his usual and throw pennies at kids in European academies.

[Daley]

It's hard to know with Wenger. Him saying "i'm not too fussed about signings, you know...whatever..." could be a tactic to not inflate prices too much of the players he is interested in. On the other hand it could be that he is actually not too fussed about signings.

Apparently it is the shareholders meeting today. Should be interesting.

[Lucky]

OK since our season is basically over let's play a bit of Fantasy Football. Who, and how, do you want Arsenal to line up next season?

Total cost is probably about £50m. Chance of getting them all = Zero.

You did say fantasy right.....

GK???

Sagna-Gallas-Vidic-Clichy

Nasri-Cesc-Essien-?? (Ashley Young maybe)

---Arshavin

---------Torres

Bench from:

Almunia

Gibbs

Toure

Djourou

Ramsey

Song

Wilshere

Rosicky (if he's still alive)

Theo (he's a forward not a winger)

Vela

Eduardo

RVP

Bendtner

Total cost is probably about £120m. Chance of even close to getting one = a fair bit less than zero.

Diaby, Silvestre, Denilson, Eboue & Adebayor can all go away.

[Steve007]

To whoever said that Wenger has been excellent at getting rid of players at the right time I would strongly disagree. He may have got rid of some players at the right time ability wise but he has let far too much experience leave. Isn’t it something like only 2 of your players have actually won a league title? That’s insane really, against United your team was desperately crying out for someone with experience to steady the ship and show some leadership.

The police should have brought criminal charges against him for letting Pires leave! Biggest fuck up in Wenger's reign!

[Dude Ranch]

The police should have brought criminal charges against him for letting Pires leave!

And Vieira. And Henry. They should all be bringing the new guard through, instead we've lost every single link from the last generation. It's all gone wrong.

[toythatkills]

And Vieira. And Henry. They should all be bringing the new guard through, instead we've lost every single link from the last generation. It's all gone wrong.

You can't pay someone £70,000+ a week to work in what's effectively a coaching role. I admit it'd have been nice, but it's not really feasible.

[Daley]

You can't pay someone £70,000+ a week to work in what's effectively a coaching role. I admit it'd have been nice, but it's not really feasible.

It wouldn't have been coaching. Are Giggs and Scholes coaching at Man Utd? It's nice to try and bring through the odd young player but dismantling your team, not buying any experience and replacing them with unproven kids is madness.

[Dude Ranch]

You can't pay someone £70,000+ a week to work in what's effectively a coaching role. I admit it'd have been nice, but it's not really feasible.

Who said that? I'd have them as part of the squad. Look at United, they've got it right. Used intelligently Scholes and Giggs, Neville less so due to injury, are playing great and there's continuity from one generation to the next. That's what I'm talking about. All three of the players we're talking about still play at the highest level. We let them all go and not even for great fees. It's been a brave attempt from Arsene and it might still bear fruit but it's also been a monumental cock up that's left the team miles behind and alienated the fanbase. Are there actually any fan favourites anymore? Arshavin, I suppose. I wouldn't miss any of the rest like I miss Henry, Vieira and Pires. The Club's dropped the ball IMO.

[Daley]

Don't worry. Wenger has learnt his lesson and is going to sign experienced quality players from now on. No, wait, the other thing.

Arsenal have handed a trial to young Argentine goalkeeper Damian Martinez with a view to a permanent £1.3million transfer

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8...5322802,00.html

[CandyBob]

I'm not sure why Wenger gets so much flack for the players that left when there are so many other factors involved.

Pires was offered a one year contract for example, which was club policy for a 30+ player, but wasn't happy with that. He also said some daft things after being sacrificed in the CL final when we went down to 10.

There seemed to have been a big drive to cut the wage bill as well.

[Mars]

The point about Giggs et al is a good one - what a role model to have at the club. The anecdote about Giggs after winning the CL last year (the first thing he said to the team was about winning it this year again) is awesome.

It appeases the fans to bring on such a player as a sub as well.

This is a good list of questions - the question about Silvestre's contract compared to Bob's is pertineOHFUCKIGHELLARSENEWHATWEREYOUTHINKINGNNNNNNNNGGHHHHHHhhh.

[Dude Ranch]

Everyone read this.

Well? I don't think I disagree with any of it. It's like the last nine months of this thread have been summarised in one page . I can't work out if it's a tongue in cheek and deliberately contentious article or just a blatantly honest one. I suspect the latter.

[hobo]

You did say fantasy right.....

GK???

Sagna-Gallas-Vidic-Clichy

Nasri-Cesc-Essien-?? (Ashley Young maybe)

---Arshavin

---------Torres

Bench from:

Almunia

Gibbs

Toure

Djourou

Ramsey

Song

Wilshere

Rosicky (if he's still alive)

Theo (he's a forward not a winger)

Vela

Eduardo

RVP

Bendtner

Total cost is probably about £120m. Chance of even close to getting one = a fair bit less than zero.

Diaby, Silvestre, Denilson, Eboue & Adebayor can all go away.

Fantasy?

Sagna - Keown - Adams© - Clichy

Pires - Vieira - Fabregas - Arshavin (Or Freddie in his prime)

Bergkamp

Henry

[CandyBob]

Don't worry. Wenger has learnt his lesson and is going to sign experienced quality players from now on. No, wait, the other thing.

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8...5322802,00.html

I'm not sure why this means anything much. This guy could have signed anyway regardless of who else comes in. If he is a talent then why not.

[a big boy]

Pires has been brilliant for Villarreal, Henry has proved this season that he never lost it in the first place never looking out of place alongside Messi, Iniesta and co, and Viera had a good few seasons in Serie A where he continues to be a decent squad player for the league champions. The idea that Wenger magically knows when players have hit the wall better than any other coach and only ever lets them go when they're past it is a myth. All three could have been massive for you this season.

[CandyBob]

Pires has been brilliant for Villarreal, Henry has proved this season that he never lost it in the first place never looking out of place alongside Messi, Iniesta and co, and Viera had a good few seasons in Serie A where he continues to be a decent squad player for the league champions. The idea that Wenger magically knows when players have hit the wall better than any other coach and only ever lets them go when they're past it is a myth. All three could have been massive for you this season.

Pires has been great in a less demanding league physically than the Premiership. Henry will always be class whatever. I don't think this changes the fact that in some of these cases the player also makes decisions and certainly in Henry's case, he felt it was time to go.

[CandyBob]

Everyone read this.

Well? I don't think I disagree with any of it. It's like the last nine months of this thread have been summarised in one page . I can't work out if it's a tongue in cheek and deliberately contentious article or just a blatantly honest one. I suspect the latter.

To be frank, thats typical F365 modern day media garbage. I'd be embarrassed for the club if some of those questions were put to Arsene Wenger.

[Dude Ranch]

Pires has been great in a less demanding league physically than the Premiership. Henry will always be class whatever. I don't think this changes the fact that in some of these cases the player also makes decisions and certainly in Henry's case, he felt it was time to go.

Henry was in the middle of a deal, it was our choice. He would have stayed.

To be frank, thats typical F365 modern day media garbage. I'd be embarrassed for the club if some of those questions were put to Arsene Wenger.

It's not a list to take to the meeting, soppy . Pick out the ones you don't agree with, if any. And why do you think Wenger shouldn't have to face those questions anyway? You should get a position on the board. He isn't God and the team has gone to shit.

[CandyBob]

Henry was in the middle of a deal, it was our choice. He would have stayed.

Really? There were heavy rumours (in fact I believe he was quoted as saying as much) that he was in the middle of a divorce with his wife and needed a fresh start. He also said that he would only ever leave Arsenal for Barcelona.

His head wasn't right either. His attitude was coming out more and more on the field and for me, it was the right time, mostly for him as a player and man.

[phresh]

I think Henri probably went at the right time, you could clearly see that he was starting to become slightly disruptive to the rest of the team. Ferguson has generally been an expert at letting players go at the right time and you can see with Keane and RVN how he got rid of them when they began to have a negative influence.

Pires and Viera should never have gone though.

[a big boy]

Pires has been great in a less demanding league physically than the Premiership. Henry will always be class whatever. I don't think this changes the fact that in some of these cases the player also makes decisions and certainly in Henry's case, he felt it was time to go.

Fair enough, maybe Wenger did his best to persuade him to stay and Henry demanded a move regardless. But then didn't he also want a move the season before when Barca were offering £30 rather than £17 million? For a manager who likes to do things on the cheap, that's a lot to lose.

And I don't think you can just right off what Pires has done at Villarreal as being down to the fact he's playing in a less physical league (albeit one still comprised of professional athletes at the peak of their careers, I might add). He had injury problems at Arsenal (who doesnt?) but proved he was capable of playing against the toughest defences. Obviously (like Man U's veterans) he's lost a bit of pace but he was, and remains, a brilliant player. A veteran who's capable of creating something from nothing - tell me you couldn't have done with that this season. Besides, if you want to argue that you got rid of him because he wasn't up for the physical battle of the Premiership anyore, well, that would hold a lot more water if his replacement wasn't Theo Walcott.

[CandyBob]

It's not a list to take to the meeting, soppy . Pick out the ones you don't agree with, if any. And why do you think Wenger shouldn't have to face those questions anyway? You should get a position on the board. He isn't God and the team has gone to shit.

A lot of the questions are contentious rubbish just looking to get a reaction. They are the sort of nonsense that you read on forums day in day out. How many other clubs managers have to put up with the sort of nonsense Arsene does?

I don't think he is a God at all but after 30 years a Gooner, the last ten have been the best since I've been a supporter. So we haven't won a trophy for four seasons. Liverpool haven't won a PL title ever. While we are going through a period of no silverware, that's life. We don't have any right to win anything. I also wouldn't call a 21 game unbeaten in the PL and a semi in the two biggest club cup competitions in the world shit but I guess our expectations are different.

[SeanR]

that's what I'd heard.

edit:

about the divorce and the fresh start.

[CandyBob]

Fair enough, maybe Wenger did his best to persuade him to stay and Henry demanded a move regardless. But then didn't he also want a move the season before when Barca were offering £30 rather than £17 million? For a manager who likes to do things on the cheap, that's a lot to lose.

And I don't think you can just right off what Pires has done at Villarreal as being down to the fact he's playing in a less physical league (albeit one still comprised of professional athletes at the peak of their careers, I might add). He had injury problems at Arsenal (who doesnt?) but proved he was capable of playing against the toughest defences. Obviously (like Man U's veterans) he's lost a bit of pace but he was, and remains, a brilliant player. A veteran who's capable of creating something from nothing - tell me you couldn't have done with that this season. Besides, if you want to argue that you got rid of him because he wasn't up for the physical battle of the Premiership anyore, well, that would hold a lot more water if his replacement wasn't Theo Walcott.

I'd love Bob to have stayed and agree it would have been great to have him around, and as far as anyone knows we offered him a one year contract. He wasn't happy and we stood our ground, what can you do.

I think that Henry would have gone the season before but Arsene talked him into staying as it would have been to big a transition for the younger players. Especially moving to the new ground as well.

[a big boy]

Henry was in the middle of a deal, it was our choice. He would have stayed.

It's not a list to take to the meeting, soppy . Pick out the ones you don't agree with, if any. And why do you think Wenger shouldn't have to face those questions anyway? You should get a position on the board. He isn't God and the team has gone to shit.

Yeah, I agree every question on the list at least deserves to be asked.

But I think it's also got to be asked of the board exactly what's going on with the club's finances. If Wenger's been doing things on the cheap the last few seasons, he's done a simply amazing job of keeping you in the top four I'm not sure any other manager in the world would have been capable of. But if he's actually had £30 mill sitting in the bank waiting to be spent while he mulls over from which position Abou Diaby is most likely to win you the Premier league, Arsenal fans need to ask with the greatest will in the world towards the man who put them on the map, how much longer they want their club to continue in this bizarre experiment.

[Dude Ranch]

A lot of the questions are contentious rubbish just looking to get a reaction. They are the sort of nonsense that you read on forums day in day out. How many other clubs managers have to put up with the sort of nonsense Arsene does?

We differ then. I don't think they're rubbish at all, they're subjects that we all discuss on here daily. The fact is that Arsene puts up with no nonsense whatsoever from the board and if he was made to be more accountable then maybe we wouldn't be in the shit. There's giving people freedom to work and then there's giving them free run of the place with no comeback. If the board aren't asking the questions and the fans aren't asking the questions then who the fuck is? We all know it's too comfortable at Arsenal, maybe that needs to change.

You still haven't pointed out any you disagree with .

[a big boy]

I'd love Bob to have stayed and agree it would have been great to have him around, and as far as anyone knows we offered him a one year contract. He wasn't happy and we stood our ground, what can you do.

Well as the F365 article asks, if Pires was only offered a 1 year contract because he was 30 years old (as demeaning for a model professional like him as that is), why was Silvestre given two years at 31? Looking at how Giggs and Scholes have helped United win the Premier League this season and the double last, wouldn't you like to see a few more of your players from that generation and who used to hand those players arses to them, were still around?

[Dude Ranch]

Yeah, I agree every question on the list at least deserves to be asked.

Yes. I'm not talking about getting up in his face about it. I've clearly read the article differently from CandyBob. I see it as a a hypothetical list that we're all asking time and again, not something to run off word for word at the meeting .

But I think it's also got to be asked of the board exactly what's going on with the club's finances. If Wenger's been doing things on the cheap the last few seasons, he's done a simply amazing job of keeping you in the top four I'm not sure any other manager in the world would have been capable of. But if he's actually had £30 mill sitting in the bank waiting to be spent while he mulls over from which position Abou Diaby is most likely to win you the Premier league, Arsenal fans need to ask with the greatest will in the world towards the man who put them on the map, how much longer they want their club to continue in this bizarre experiment.

Again, yes. This needs to be cleared up once and for all.