Arsenal

[toythatkills]

The two best keepers in the Premier League* are both younger than Szczesny, which suggests to me that he should be more than capable by now of being at least somewhere near his prime.

(*Opinions may vary, obviously, but it's difficult to argue that de Gea and Courtois aren't leagues ahead of Szczesny in terms of attitude, maturity, decision making, and basically all goalkeeping qualities.)

[carlito]

Or just there happen to be two weirdly young keepers in the Prem right now.

[NexivRed]

Just wondering why people seem impressed with Ospina really. What games or examples do you have in mind when you're singing his praises? All I can recall on the positive side was a great save at the death against...Leicester I think (which was at the end of a game where he'd been a bit ropey!) Other than that I don't get what he's done that's so good. In half the games he's barely had a save to make.

I haven't once had the impression he's done anything that Szcesny couldn't have, whereas I think Szcesny would definitely have saved some of those Monaco goals.

[The Fox]

Or just there happen to be two weirdly young keepers in the Prem right now.

Yeah exactly, how many keepers are as good as those two at that age? It's definitely the exception rather than the norm. Also, IIRC Szczesny had a brilliant period around 2011 sort of time when he was younger than those two.

Like you, I'm flabbergasted that anyone could think he's worse than Ospina in terms of ability. I just don't understand it on any level. As far as I can tell he's a bit like Alexis in that he's a high risk, high reward sort of guy. Infuriating when his shit doesn't come off, but capable of highs that I can't see Ospina hitting whatsoever.

I'm yet to see a reasonable counter argument to my claim that Dave hasn't had one game up to the standards of Szczesny's best this season, let alone last year when he was in better form (admittedly he also probably hasn't had one as bad as Woj vs Southampton, but that's partly mitigated by the abhorrent state of Woj's defence and midfield that day).

For me Szczesny's issues are down to maturity and attitude on and off the pitch, not raw ability. That means they shouldn't be insurmountable, but it's worrying that he hasn't sorted it out by now and I do wonder if Arsène has simply lost patience.

[toythatkills]

I don't think anyone's argued that Ospina is a better goalkeeper than Szczesny as far as raw ability goes, but he's a better goalkeeper to have playing behind our defence. The defenders know where he's going to be and what he's going to do, and so can play their game based on that. With Szczesny they have no fucking idea what he's going to do, I doubt Szczesny has any idea what he's going to do, and so they constantly have to play as if he's not there - just in case he isn't.

Obviously the effect is something we can never really measure because there are other factors playing into this, so maybe it's fuck all to do with Ospina at all, but I'd be surprised if our defence was as steady if Szczesny was back behind it.

If you were a centre back at Arsenal, which one of them would you prefer to play in front of?

[redbloodcell]

Yeah exactly, how many keepers are as good as those two at that age?

Proper top tier goalkeepers? Quite a few. Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Cech, Valdes, Reina, Lloris were all being generally great/winning things (individually or as part of a team) between the ages of 22 and 24. Hart too, although he's gone off the boil a fair bit over the past few years.

[carlito]

Everyone should watch the Spurs game again and see how many time Ospina palmed the ball into the most outrageously dangerous areas.

[The Fox]

Proper top tier goalkeepers? Quite a few. Buffon, Casillas, Neuer, Cech, Valdes, Reina, Lloris were all being generally great/winning things (individually or as part of a team) between the ages of 22 and 24. Hart too, although he's gone off the boil a fair bit over the past few years.

Dude that's less than 10 people you've listed there in like a 15 year timeframe, worldwide!

[Petrousgyre]

Like you, I'm flabbergasted that anyone could think he's worse than Ospina in terms of ability.

Literally no one said he was. The discussion centred entirely around Ospina's temperament, he's much less erratic then Szczesny and it's had a net positive result on our defence - at least that's my contention. Szczesny's a fine keeper on his day but he's crazy with it, this has a tangible effect on the team to the extent that I don't think him a sensible No1 for a side hoping to challenge at the very top.

[carlito]

Beside the point of Szczesny being incredibly young for a keeper but (for internet funsies) just because Valdes played for Barcelona doesn't make him that good and also Reina was easily as gaffe prone as Szczesny if not more.

Other than that, pretty lofty benchmarks.

[The Fox]

Literally no one said he was. The discussion centred entirely around Ospina's temperament, he's much less erratic then Szczesny and it's had a net positive result on our defence - at least that's my contention. Szczesny's a fine keeper on his day but he's crazy with it, this has a tangible effect on the team to the extent that I don't think him a sensible No1 for a side hoping to challenge at the very top.

Fair, though I'd contest he's just a cowardly Given-esque keeper who plays it very safe, as opposed to one who puts himself out there when needed but is still fairly stable with it.

And even with Dave's reluctance to take any risks, he's still had a couple of horror shows vs Spurs and Monaco. Szczesny would have been absolutely slaughtered for some of the gaffes he made in those games, guaranteed.

Edit: one final point re: our current form and stability - are people suggesting we've not had periods like this with Szczesny in goal? Because we absolutely have, numerous times, so I don't really see the significance

[redbloodcell]

Beside the point of Szczesny being incredibly young for a keeper but (for internet funsies) just because Valdes played for Barcelona doesn't make him that good and also Reina was easily as gaffe prone as Szczesny if not more.

Other than that, pretty lofty benchmarks.

Valdes won 'keeper of the season in his first year as #1 Barca (and was 3rd the season after), Reina back to back Golden Gloves in his first 2 at Liverpool.

Arsenal are effectively the 8th richest club in the world, do you think that your current goalkeepers are up to that level?

[emjay2kay]

Like you, I'm flabbergasted that anyone could think he's worse than Ospina in terms of ability. I just don't understand it on any level. As far as I can tell he's a bit like Alexis in that he's a high risk, high reward sort of guy. Infuriating when his shit doesn't come off, but capable of highs that I can't see Ospina hitting whatsoever.

"High risk" doesn't sound like a particular great trait to have as a keeper though, does it?

[The Fox]

Depends on the nature of them. I don't think he's especially prone to clangers via risky over-exuberance any more than, say, Neuer or Lloris. Conversely being risk-averse as a keeper is definitely detrimental. Ospina is slower off his line and has far weaker command of his area, because he's too willing to take the easy option.

[Ravern]

Someone has probably suggested it already, but might Bellerin possibly go the Gareth Bale route and convert to a forward at some point?

[The Fox]

Valdes won 'keeper of the season in his first year as #1 Barca (and was 3rd the season after), Reina back to back Golden Gloves in his first 2 at Liverpool.

Arsenal are effectively the 8th richest club in the world, do you think that your current goalkeepers are up to that level?

I can't speak for carlito obviously but I already said I'd be open to replacing Szczesny if we can get someone better. All I'm saying is that I think he should be in the first XI right now, because IMO he's the best we currently have. I'd have dropped Ospina after Monaco at home, personally.

[wev]

The other thing we're missing from the Ospina - Woj discussion, we always have a purple patch when we exit the Champions League

[redbloodcell]

I can't speak for carlito obviously but I already said I'd be open to replacing Szczesny if we can get someone better. All I'm saying is that I think he should be in the first XI right now, because IMO he's the best we currently have. I'd have dropped Ospina after Monaco at home, personally.

That's fair enough. Wenger surely won't be unaware that Ospina will cost just as many goals through inaction over a season, I'd imagine this only really ends with a new 'keeper arriving at the Emirates in the summer from somewhere even if it isn't Cech.

[gooner4life]

I think it will be Cech or Lloris.

[The Fox]

Lloris would be worth £40m for comedy purposes alone.

[pinholestar]

I'd snap up Lloris if we could get him. He's too good to be faffing around with some shithouse team scrapping for a Europa League place each season. A step below De Gea & Courtois but probably the best sweeper-type keeper around. Not sure if that would necessarily suit us (especially with Per in the side) but I'd take him regardless as he's clearly better than both of our current keepers, has Premier League experience & is French & so on.

Cech would be very good too but he's never quite been the same since his head injury & as I said before I'd be amazed if Mourinho agreed to that deal.

[The Fox]

Some reading from Tim Stillman on Woj: http://arsenal-mania.com/arsenal-might-just-cut-their-losses-with-star-despite-huge-potential/

[The Fox]

In other news it looks like we might be able to name this matchday squad for Burnley:

Ospina; Bellerin, Mertesacker, Gabriel, Monreal; Coquelin, Cazorla; Ramsey, Ozil, Alexis; Giroud

Subs from: Szczesny, Debuchy, Gibbs, Koscielny, Rosicky, Arteta, Wilshere, Walcott, Flamini, Welbeck, Diaby (!)

So basically only Ox is unavailable through injury.

What is going on?

[Silent Runner]

In other news it looks like we might be able to name this matchday squad for Burnley:

Ospina; Bellerin, Mertesacker, Gabriel, Monreal; Coquelin, Cazorla; Ramsey, Ozil, Alexis; Giroud

Subs from: Szczesny, Debuchy, Gibbs, Koscielny, Rosicky, Arteta, Wilshere, Walcott, Flamini, Welbeck, Diaby (!)

So basically only Ox is unavailable through injury.

What is going on?

It's the Shad-factor.

[NexivRed]

BFG and Nacho were good today, Koscielny and Bellerin not so much. Lost count of how many passes Kos misplaced under zero pressure. Also, Ospina's kicking is atrocious.

[Silent Runner]

Some dodgy performances all right. Lots of stray passes even from Alexis. Great win though.

[toythatkills]

Winning by playing badly is how you win the league

[The Fox]

Sort of saw the best and worst of Coq today: brilliant at winning the ball back, but the entire team ends up under more pressure than if Arteta was playing. Away games like this when we're ahead are a perfect time to use Arteta in future, to bring back control of deep midfield.

Agree on Koscielny, dunno what was up with his passing today. I also think Welbeck should generally start these tricksy away games at CF: Giroud regularly doesn't do the business for whatever reason, and we can counter better with Welbz.

Such a shame that Ramsey didn't lash that volley opportunity in first time, like his goal against Norwich last year. The first time lofted pass from Özil was absolutely brilliant.

[gooner4life]

Get over your obsession with Arteta, Coquelin was brilliant and doesn't put the team under pressure at all, your obsession is weird.

[Dude Ranch]

Coquelin is brilliant at knowing his role. He's effective and reliable but let's focus on what he can't do! Didn't Song get shit loads for being ill disciplined, roaming all over the shop and being a bit Hollywood? Coquelin isn't there to creatively boss the midfield and set a tempo. If we weren't doing that there are other players who should stand up before him.