Arsenal

[Steve007]

So arsenal have emailed to "update my contact details incase they can offer me a gold membership"...

My season ticket is £1300. If we drop out the top 4 and they bundle UEFA fucking pub cup games in to the cost of next years season ticket then they can piss off. Those games should be optional, not mandatory.

[Steve007]

Bloke going mental on Talk Sport at the moment. Good stuff.

[The Fox]

He's calling TalkSport, of course he's mental.

[Rev]

Hey guys! I'm going to call TalkSport now, think I'm going to kick-off. Tune in!

That's how everyone else read it, yeah?

[Steve007]

That's how everyone else read it, yeah?

Once I'm done they'd have me hosting the Daily Arsenal all the time.

[The Fox]

I think the most alarming thing is our failing to build at least a functional team given the injuries.

I mean obviously we aren't going to be the team we were with everyone available but surely we can do better than this?

It's beyond round peg in square hole here and there, it's literally a team that doesn't work. We don't have any apparent goal-scoring formula, we are witheringly incapable of dealing with counterattack and we struggle to make options and build play out of defence - are there no youth options there to address one of these things?

Rosicky-Cazorla-Podolski is such a plodding attacking trio. I really think he needs to choose between Rosicky & Cazorla and leave the other one out. I get why Ox was dropped post-Chelsea, but he's done his penance and should really have started on Sunday.

When you put that sluggish attack between a slow motion centre forward and the world's least mobile holding players, it's no wonder we look absurdly ponderous. Then Ramsey comes on and you instantly see what we've been missing -- look, someone is making runs off the ball!

I still think we'll probably finish fourth if we get some players back, because Everton are surely going to drop points (if they don't though, they'll thoroughly deserve 4th). Hopefully Ozil will be fit to play some part against Hull. Having him and Ramsey in the side will make a huge difference.

It's worrying that Wenger and the squad have coped so poorly with the injuries, and I'm not excusing the way we've been playing the last few weeks, but I think some of the posts in the last few pages have been pretty reactionary. Not having a pop at anyone because I know I do that myself sometimes too, but I don't think the squad is as bad as some are making out. We shouldn't forget that for the calendar year of 2013 we were THE form team, with this same bunch of players.

[SaintM]

We shouldn't forget that for the calendar year of 2013 we were THE form team, with this same bunch of players.

Man United won the league last season with the same bunch of players too.

[Radish]

I know what you mean by "the in form team of 2013", but what did we actually win? We scraped 4th and we'll be lucky to do it again. It comes down to whether you find that acceptable or if you want the team to try and push on, which does require additional/better players. The injury situation is no longer a fluke so we need a better squad, or perhaps we just need to improve tactically in the big games. Either way, I don't think many fans are happy with how the team is at the moment.

[The Fox]

Man United won the league last season with the same bunch of players too.

They got rid of one of the best managers of all time and replaced him with someone bang average. How is that relevant here?

I know what you mean by "the in form team of 2013", but what did we actually win? We scraped 4th and we'll be lucky to do it again. It comes down to whether you find that acceptable or if you want the team to try and push on, which does require additional/better players. The injury situation is no longer a fluke so we need a better squad, or perhaps we just need to improve tactically in the big games. Either way, I don't think many fans are happy with how the team is at the moment.

I'm not saying everything is rosy. The injury situation is absurd, I've acknowledged that. Wenger is on record as admitting to overplaying people against the advice of his medical team, which is fucking ridiculous, and he should be held accountable for that. He and his players have been found massively wanting in important games away from home all season, and look totally hopeless without Ramsey/Ozil/Koscielny. All I'm saying is this squad isn't a total shower of shite. The 2013/14 season will end with Arsenal having spent more weeks at the top than anyone else. That's not a total coincidence, and it's not an irrelevance.

I'm not adverse to taking a punt on something new to freshen the place up. The main issue I see this summer, for whoever is manager, is how many players we need. If we assume we're losing Fabianski, Viviano, Vermaelen and Sagna, and accept that, at the very least, the first XI needs a centre forward and holding midfielder for us to improve, you're looking at 5 players in at a minimum, and ideally 6-7 seeing as we could also use a pacey wide forward. That's a hell of a lot of business to get done in one summer for a club our size, especially when there's a World Cup on, and ESPECIALLY if Arsene is still in charge. That's the worry I've got.

[davidcotton]

So basically, half decent first team when everyone is fit but not much depth or competition for places?

[Rev]

So basically, half decent first team when everyone is fit but not much depth or competition for places?

I did the rant before so I'm not going to repeat, but the real problem is the lack of youth options. We've got nothing coming through at all that Wenger feels is ready to support the first team. Gnabry and, generously to count him as a youth, Jenkinson. And that's it. That's meant to be our thing, surely?

[The Fox]

So basically, half decent first team when everyone is fit but not much depth or competition for places?

I think we do have decent depth in midfield in terms of pure quality, but the composition is iffy. As a collective we're far too slow and unathletic, and the XI we're using at the moment is by far the slowest side I've seen under Wenger. We have ONE wide forward in the squad who prefers to make runs in behind with pace and purpose. Everyone else who has occupied those positions - Cazorla, Rosicky, Podolski, Wilshere, Chamberlain, Gnabry - prefers cutting inside. And of those players, only Chamberlain and Gnabry have above average speed.

The first team with everyone fit is a lot more than half decent -- on our day we can hang with any side in the world, with the right instruction from the manager (something that he has done in some big games, and demonstrably failed to do in others). I'd suggest there IS competition for places, but Wenger simply doesn't like messing with the side unless he has to. He's the total opposite of a Fergie or Benitez when it comes to rotating his XI, and that has almost certainly contributed to the very costly injuries to key players. We could easily have rested Koscielny, Ramsey and Ozil a lot more than we did. Ozil and Kos playes 90 minutes against Coventry, for Christ's sake! I think it's impossible to defend Wenger on this point.

I did the rant before so I'm not going to repeat, but the real problem is the lack of youth options. We've got nothing coming through at all that Wenger feels is ready to support the first team. Gnabry and, generously to count him as a youth, Jenkinson. And that's it. That's meant to be our thing, surely?

Bellerin, Zelalem and Crowley could all easily make the grade.

[Rev]

Bellerin, Zelalem and Crowley could all easily make the grade.

I'm not saying they won't, but they're not trusted to get onto the pitch now. There should always be a handful that you can trust to cover half an hour here and there. I'm not asking for 90 minutes 3 times a week, just an hour a month, tops, when we're 2-0 up. It'd make a huge difference to their development and to the squad mentality/fitness.

Even the League Cup is an all-but first team squad now. It's stupid.

[Oh Danny Boy]

I did the rant before so I'm not going to repeat, but the real problem is the lack of youth options. We've got nothing coming through at all that Wenger feels is ready to support the first team. Gnabry and, generously to count him as a youth, Jenkinson. And that's it. That's meant to be our thing, surely?

That is something that I have found missing from Arsenal in recent years; their exciting youth sides. What has happened to those teams that used to get a run out in the league cup and drew lots of plaudits? It seems as if the talented youth teams which were a staple of Wenger's reign has dried up.

[wev]

I think that could be put down to a demand for a trophy, especially after the League Cup final against Birmingham. Wenger has fielded a stronger team in every round of both cups since then I think and so there's been less chance for younger players to show their worth.

I think landing a trophy will improve things around the club in more ways than any of us have considered previously

[The Fox]

That is something that I have found missing from Arsenal in recent years; their exciting youth sides. What has happened to those teams that used to get a run out in the league cup and drew lots of plaudits? It seems as if the talented youth teams which were a staple of Wenger's reign has dried up.

Wenger used to get frequently lambasted for playing too many kids in the cup competitions. People can't have it both ways.

[Rev]

I loved the youth teams in the League Cup. They were properly exciting, but the amount of criticism he got for them made it impossible to carry on whilst we weren't winning anything else.

[The Fox]

I see David Moyes has dropped a neg on me up there. Bastard.

[Steve007]

I loved the youth teams in the League Cup. They were properly exciting, but the amount of criticism he got for them made it impossible to carry on whilst we weren't winning anything else.

It was exciting watching them beat the likes of Burnley and Sheffield United convincingly but when it came to it, hardly any of them were good enough for top tier football.

The excitement surrounding the Arsenal youth players a few years ago was an embarrassment when next to no one made it when they were supposed to be the future of the club. I didn't get carried away, there were a few that looked decent. Fran Merida was one of my picks who I thought would make it but he fucked off to Athletico Madrid on a Bosman. Vela was meant to be the next global super kid who looked shit against anyone half decent. Again, people got carried away due to some good performances against Championship & League One sides.

It shows how desperate we were back then to get excited about a bunch of youth players who were never going to make it, with one or two exceptions.

[Steve007]

I'm not adverse to taking a punt on something new to freshen the place up. The main issue I see this summer, for whoever is manager, is how many players we need. If we assume we're losing Fabianski, Viviano, Vermaelen and Sagna, and accept that, at the very least, the first XI needs a centre forward and holding midfielder for us to improve, you're looking at 5 players in at a minimum, and ideally 6-7 seeing as we could also use a pacey wide forward. That's a hell of a lot of business to get done in one summer for a club our size, especially when there's a World Cup on, and ESPECIALLY if Arsene is still in charge. That's the worry I've got.

If it's Wenger, remember he is the man that tried to get Demba Ba on loan for the season after missing out on a number of high profile forwards. The deal fell apart as Wenger wouldn't pay 100% of his salary. I'd rather persist with fucking Bendtner than that waste of space.

The Higuain transfer was nonsense. They just tried to make it look like they were interested. Same for Suarez. If they were serious about signing either they would have done it.

[humdrum]

I thought chelsea blocked the Ba deal? where the stuff on us not wanting to pay his wages?

also what do youmean we wanted it to look like we where after Higuain and Suarez? how is offering £40 million for suarez not trying to get the deal done?

its fine looking back in retrospect and saying his worth more then the £40 million we offered, but when we offered it he was still banned for like 6 games and was still have been a huge gamble.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

An acquaintance forwarded me a piece today regarding the infamous war chest/years of penny-pinching hoarding that raised the interesting point that it not only cost us on the pitch but also the 'real' value of the clubs cash reserves as, thanks to depreciation et al, the money itself is arguably worth 30% less now in today's terms because you can't get so much with it, interest gained has been abysmal these last few years, etc. It argued that investing in players would have been far better not just to an increased chance of success but their potential investment value in selling them on to Barca et al later.

[Steve007]

also what do youmean we wanted it to look like we where after Higuain and Suarez? how is offering £40 million for suarez not trying to get the deal done?

If Arsenal were serious about doing the deal it would have been completed, it's as simple as that. Going back with a £50m or £55m bid could have had it signed and sealed. I don't know what Liverpool's breaking point was, but if Arsenal genuinely wanted to sign the player, then it would have cost more money. Regardless of whether the £40m plus £1 triggered the clause there's a proper way of doing things and Arsenal didn't see it through because they were not serious about doing the deal.

[JDubYes]

So, what, you think they bid £40,000,001 pounds and then just prayed Liverpool wouldn't take the bait?

I can understand your frustration Steve, but it seems like you get angry and then look at things in such a simplistic way that makes it very difficult to agree with you. Contrary to some of your assertions, this Arsenal team isn't shit, the players do care (even if it's not as much, or in the same way, as the supporters), and not signing a player doesn't mean "they were not serious about doing the deal."

If Suarez had wanted to come, and agreed on terms, and passed all his medicals, and Arsenal and Liverpool had also been able to agree on a price*, etc, then he would've joined, but even then I suspect the number of things that affect/derail transfers is mind-boggling. I'd guess the Suarez pursuit is what derailed the Higuain deal, for example, as Arsenal were distracted, and that let Napoli sneak in with a more concrete offer. It seems unlikely that we'd have ever signed both Higuain and Suarez, and it looks like the way we approached it (dawdling on Higuian while testing the water with Suarez) eventually meant we got neither. (This annoyed me immensely at the time, because back then I wanted Higuain more anyway.)

If Liverpool weren't interested in selling Suarez (for any reasonable sum of money), and I doubt they were, what could Arsenal have done? They could've just added zeroes until Liverpool pretty much had to agree, but that's not how this works, unless you're one of maybe three or four clubs in the world (and not even always then). It's just not feasible, and I wouldn't want that to be the way we were run anyway. That's what got Leeds in the mess they were/are in, and I've never been a fan of the Ridsdale management model.

We are seemingly too frugal, we are seemingly too naive (tactically on the pitch** and otherwise), our injury issues are baffling, and I do worry about what could happen without some real change in at least a couple of those areas. With that said, we're a very good football team, with real potential for growth in the very near future both on and off the pitch, and there's a limit to how much hand-wringing is required or appropriate, so many Arsenal fans' recent tendency to go spectacularly overboard really pisses me off.

* I actually think the six-game suspension would've been a real point of contention, as Arsenal would've expected a discount because of it, and Liverpool would have disagreed.

** I completely agree with Fox on the Podolski-Cazorla-Rosicky axis, for example, much as I love them all individually, and it's this kind of thing that worries me about Wenger. He'll seemingly stick in the best players available, playing them out of position where necessary, and/or try something he thinks might work, without fully considering or anticipating the potential effects on the team's balance, with our recent lineup's lack of pace and incisive movement off the ball a prime example.

[The Fox]

If it's Wenger, remember he is the man that tried to get Demba Ba on loan for the season after missing out on a number of high profile forwards. The deal fell apart as Wenger wouldn't pay 100% of his salary. I'd rather persist with fucking Bendtner than that waste of space.

The Higuain transfer was nonsense. They just tried to make it look like they were interested. Same for Suarez. If they were serious about signing either they would have done it.

lol I don't think I've ever seen such a simplistic view on transfers in my life. Where do you get this shit? You HONESTLY believe that we could have signed Ba, but Wenger wouldn't pay like £70k a week? Seriously? Fucksake. Mourinho even went on record as saying he scuppered it after we signed Ozil, because he suddenly viewed us a competitor.

What happened with Higuain is pretty obvious: negotiations were taking place for a fee of about £25m, then Madrid got wind that Napoli were going to offer more and naturally they started an auction. Meanwhile Pere Guardiola puts it out there that Suarez has a buyout clause of £40m. So Higuain for £32m or Suarez for £40m? It's a no brainer. According to Gordon Taylor, the clause was vague and wouldn't really have held up. According to John Henry, it was a firm clause, but Liverpool simply chose to ignore it and basically invited Suarez or Arsenal to take legal action (this could just be bravado from him though to make him look like a tough negotiator).

I'm not going to defend the club over the £40m + £1 thing because it was petty and unprofessional. After that, I don't think there's any chance Liverpool would have accepted £50m, £60m, whatever from us. It really pissed them off, and rightly so. And we do have a finite amount of money, we're not an oil club that can just keep chucking more and more in until the seller relents. Suarez's new contract is said to be about £200k a week, so we'd have needed to offer something like that. You're talking about a £100m+ investment in the guy over the course of the prospective contract. That's not chump change.

[SeanR]

"Arsenal" have posted on FB, asking for fans teamsheets for the FA semi.

the vast majority of replies are "anyone but Giroud".

[toythatkills]

I'm not going to defend the club over the £40m + £1 thing because it was petty and unprofessional.

I don't really understand that. You hear a player has a buy-out clause for £40m, what are you going to bid? £70m?

Obviously the information turned out to be erroneous or whatever, but still, what would you have bid in that situation?

[The Fox]

I dunno, £40.5m? Far less inflammatory.

[toythatkills]

I dunno, £40.5m? Far less inflammatory.

Man, I wish people would give me HALF A MILLION POUNDS just because they were worried they might annoy me.

[The Fox]

Wenger has publicly admitted that in hindsight it wasn't a smart thing to do. £0.5m isn't a lot in the scheme of things we're talking about, and if it had made Liverpool less entrenched in their stance by keeping relations more positive and respectful, it would have been well worth it.