Arsenal

[The Fox]

That I can't see the evidence for Klopp being a better coach than Wenger. To pine for him now seems a bit barmy to me when his side have had a pretty poor season. Obviously he's very good, but he's got flaws. Wenger isn't suddenly a clueless chump either - he's got a much harder task domestically than Klopp has, but he's made a better fist of it.

[hauk]

Agreed with others that we need a more dynamic player in midfield to replace Arteta/Flamini and a speedy forward to be our first choice.

Honestly as bad as this result was, with Ramsey, Ozil, Wilshere and Walcott in the team plus the above additions we will be a better team next year. I don't fell anywhere near as pessimistic as I did after Cesc/Nasri left at least.

[Rev]

I felt really happy after Nasri left.

[The Fox]

I dunno if the centre forward needs to be super speedy, but he needs to move, needs to make runs. Giroud is so slow and immobile it's unreal, and we saw again the quality of his finishing yesterday at 0-0.

I like the guy, and I've said before that he definitely has his traits and his uses, but for me he's the worst first choice striker at Arsenal in 30 years. He doesn't merit his standing in the squad at all. Just look what Liverpool have done with a worse midfield than us and waaaay worse defence. Top strikers can carry you a long, long way.

[BlinkyBear]

That I can't see the evidence for Klopp being a better coach than Wenger. To pine for him now seems a bit barmy to me when his side have had a pretty poor season. Obviously he's very good, but he's got flaws. Wenger isn't suddenly a clueless chump either - he's got a much harder task domestically than Klopp has, but he's made a better fist of it.

Ah, ok. Totally agree with you then. The thing that everyone needs reminding of, is that Wenger, for all of his flaws, has ensure that we've achieved above what you'd expect our squads to achieve when you consider the factors such as wages and transfer fees that you see banded about. As many have said, you could get rid of Wenger, but who else do you think could do as good or better a job than he does/is given the restriction we've had on resources (assuming of course, that these haven't been self-imposed by Wenger)? Klopp fits in many respects and does things in a similar manner so is a relatively easy pick, but like you said, I'm not sure what evidence there is for him being a better coach that Wenger, other than perhaps being like Wenger 10 years ago which I'm sure we'd all like.

Not that much of this matters-we're massively exaggerating how 'bad' things are because we've been pumped in a big game again, rather than focusing on the improvement in our results and consistency in the last few seasons. We should win something this year which will be just rewards for our general performance over the last couple of seasons imo and Wenger is off in the Summer anyway.

And FYI, it's Matinez we should be looking to for a long-term successor. Or Simeone for a few years of fun and probable trophy wins.

[The Fox]

Wanna see what Martinez does post Jagielka-Distin tbh, seeing as evidence thusfar indicates that he can't build a defence at all. As for Simeone, personally I don't like the way Atletico play but he's clearly a good coach.

[BlinkyBear]

Wanna see what Martinez does post Jagielka-Distin tbh, seeing as evidence thusfar indicates that he can't build a defence at all. As for Simeone, personally I don't like the way Atletico play but he's clearly a good coach.

The thing with Simeone, as much as I hate saying this, the man clearly gives a massive fuck and Athleti have looked "up for it" in the big games I've seen them the last couple of seasons. As sensible as Wenger's approach is, does it get tiresome and a bit one-note after so many years to a lot of players? Someone with some fire and *shudder* passion, could be what some of these players need in these bigger games that we've consistently failed in.

And for the striker talk, Akpom's been recalled from Cov.

[Rocafella]

I dunno if the centre forward needs to be super speedy, but he needs to move, needs to make runs. Giroud is so slow and immobile it's unreal, and we saw again the quality of his finishing yesterday at 0-0.

I like the guy, and I've said before that he definitely has his traits and his uses, but for me he's the worst first choice striker at Arsenal in 30 years. He doesn't merit his standing in the squad at all. Just look what Liverpool have done with a worse midfield than us and waaaay worse defence. Top strikers can carry you a long, long way.

Giroud is exactly what we paid for, a £12m striker and nothing more. Arsene thought we could get through the season with just him at centre forward, which is fine if all you're trying to do is get top 4, but no team has ever won the league without at least one world class striker. Which is why it's even more gutting, because I'm convinced if we'd have got either Suarez or Higauin, we'd be top of the league.

[Rev]

Ah, ok. Totally agree with you then. The thing that everyone needs reminding of, is that Wenger, for all of his flaws, has ensure that we've achieved above what you'd expect our squads to achieve when you consider the factors such as wages and transfer fees that you see banded about. As many have said, you could get rid of Wenger, but who else do you think could do as good or better a job than he does/is given the restriction we've had on resources (assuming of course, that these haven't been self-imposed by Wenger)? Klopp fits in many respects and does things in a similar manner so is a relatively easy pick, but like you said, I'm not sure what evidence there is for him being a better coach that Wenger, other than perhaps being like Wenger 10 years ago which I'm sure we'd all like.

Not that much of this matters-we're massively exaggerating how 'bad' things are because we've been pumped in a big game again, rather than focusing on the improvement in our results and consistency in the last few seasons. We should win something this year which will be just rewards for our general performance over the last couple of seasons imo and Wenger is off in the Summer anyway.

And FYI, it's Matinez we should be looking to for a long-term successor. Or Simone for a few years of fun and probable trophy wins.

It does suddenly seem likely he's off. I really thought, especially with Moyes setting an example, he'd stick around for another couple of years but his refusal to make any signals about his contract, the sudden agreement to look into injuries, the skipping the press conference, the inevitable Champion's League performance...It doesn't really feel like he's being inspired to sign.

The trouble is, as much as I am certain that a different manager could have got us wins in these stand-out matches, I don't think the squad is good enough for someone else to come in and take it forward with any sort of consistency. We've got a central defensive pairing, 4 central/attacking midfielders and that's it. We've not got anyone coming through that you'd say is a certainty either.

It's potentially a proper, proper mess.

[The Fox]

He said on what, Thursday or Friday, that he expected to sign the new deal. I'd be amazed if he changed his mind based on one game, no matter how embarrassing, unless he hasn't got a clue what went wrong.

Mind you, it was eerily similar to what happened at Anfield, so seeing as he thought he could get away with a similarly open setup for some reason, maybe he hasn't.

[gizmo1990]

I think (hope) he's got too much pride to chip now. He's got a substantial budget to use over the summer along with the base at least for a decent team. I think he'll sign. He deserves to be given a chance to prove himself.

[Rev]

I'm sure it'll be his decision either way, so it's not really a matter of "deserves" but this last week or so he hasn't sounded as stubbornly stubborn as he usually does. The self-doubt about the injury situation really stood out as being different.

[The Fox]

I'm so confused about the side he put out. He'd willingly used Flamini-Arteta away against pretty meh opposition such as WBA, even shunting Ramsey out wide to accommodate it, presumably in an effort to provide greater solidity. It rarely looked anything other than horrible, but he stuck with it on numerous occasions.

Then suddenly, when he again deployed the pair against Liverpool in the cup, it looked quite good. It had been switched up so that Flamini was the deepest player, and Arteta was hassling higher up (previously it had always been the other way around).

Why then, given that Wenger had previously shown a cautious approach in away games by reverting to this midfield pairing, would he reject it in favour of an absurdly gung-ho setup involving high full backs and Arteta hopelessly isolated in midfield, for an away game against the league leaders?! Why show such caution away to the likes of Southampton and West Brom, only to throw it to the wind at Stamford Bridge? I could understand it if the pairing was still looking ineffective, but the last two times he'd used it (in the amended form), it had looked pretty decent! And most confusingly of all, having seen what happened to Arteta and the centre backs at Anfield when confronted with quick, powerful, pacey runners, why expose them in exactly the same way?

Don't get me wrong, there were some rank performances out there, and sloppy errors that Wenger can't possibly make allowances for, but I think he's right to carry the can for this one, because the way he set his team out was completely disastrous.

[Rev]

He/they wanted a 1000th game win.

I'm relatively sure if we'd have been playing pretty much anyone else we'd have got a 5 or 6 goal win ourselves. It was super-open at the start, last 5 minutes of a cup final stuff and that only happens if the team talk and tactics are winwinwinwinwin and that's why we lost. They only had to be "lucky" enough for Giroud to be Giroud, then were more than good enough to pounce on stupid, panicked mistakes and turn them into goals.

[Revival]

That really is giving Chelsea no credit whatsoever.

[Rev]

That really is giving Chelsea no credit whatsoever.

We had one shot, it missed. Then we did a stupid pass, they scored. Then we did a stupid pass, they scored. Then they had a shot and Alex Oxlade-Gibbs-Lehmann got his hand it. Then the game was over.

I'm not sure many other squads could have taken advantage of the mistakes so well, but the first 3 goals were all wholly self-inflicted.

[The Fox]

I can't say I agree with that at all. This was the same team that narrowly scraped a 0-1 win at Spurs (a markedly inferior side to Chelsea) a week earlier. Why would they beat anyone 6-0?

If you want to beat Chelsea away, that is clearly not the way to go about it. Even a casual observer could tell you that, so you'd hope one of the world's best-paid coaches and his assembly of Premier League footballers would know too.

[Rev]

I can't say I agree with that at all. This was the same team that narrowly scraped a 0-1 win at Spurs (a markedly inferior side to Chelsea) a week earlier. Why would they beat anyone 6-0?

If you want to beat Chelsea away, that is clearly not the way to go about it. Even a casual observer could tell you that, so you'd hope one of the world's best-paid coaches and his assembly of Premier League footballers would know too.

No Premiership team that isn't managed by Mourinho is set-up to dismiss that kind of pressure from the start, especially from Arsenal since they never do that. We'd have got an early goal and then not let-up.

It's mental to think it'd work every time, but I do think it would have done on Saturday against a lesser team.

[gizmo1990]

The self-doubt about the injury situation really stood out as being different.

Yeah I agree, that really stood out for me too. Finally he was willing to consider that there may be other reasons why our players always seem so brittle.

I think Wengers confidence has taken a real battering over the defeats we've had. Mourinho really was the worst manager to go up against in those circumstances.

[The Fox]

No Premiership team that isn't managed by Mourinho is set-up to dismiss that kind of pressure from the start, especially from Arsenal since they never do that. We'd have got an early goal and then not let-up.

It's mental to think it'd work every time, but I do think it would have done on Saturday against a lesser team.

Might have been a good idea to change tack at 2-0 after 15 minutes.

[Rev]

Might have been a good idea to change tack at 2-0 after 15 minutes.

We did! How much more of defensive formation can you want than one that has two goalkeepers?

[Dude Ranch]

If you want to beat Chelsea away, that is clearly not the way to go about it. Even a casual observer could tell you that, so you'd hope one of the world's best-paid coaches and his assembly of Premier League footballers would know too.

This is my main gripe. Easy enough for us to be armchair managers I suppose but really, some of it is so obvious. If we can predict this stuff then so can the likes of Mourinho and why can't Wenger?

[anders limpar]

Got a spare for tomorrow - £25 North Bank lower, Block 6

[Rev]

I think it's less stupid than it sounds. They had suspensions. They had a mid-week match that they were expected to win, but nowhere near as easily as they did. They started with two very defensive midfielders. Both suggest they'll be starting slowly. Their strikers aren't the strongest part of their squad and you'd fancy our defence to be able to be able to hold their own there. By playing directly you can skip over the rest of the squad, so it's just their defence vs our attack which we've bolstered by not including Flamini and the element of surprise.

Really the only other option with the current squad was to hope for a 0-0, which isn't really a 1000th game approach.

I think it was properly stupid, even if we didn't concede we'd have been knackered by the end of the first half, but it wasn't wholly without logic. I don't think it deserved to backfire as spectacularly as it did, at least. I'd be amazed if he hadn't worked out what a risk he was taking though.

[Arc'Tan'Gent]

Got a spare for tomorrow - £25 North Bank lower, Block 6

Could well be mate. Just waiting to find out my rota, can I get back to you asap?

[The Fox]

I think it was properly stupid, even if we didn't concede we'd have been knackered by the end of the first half, but it wasn't wholly without logic. I don't think it deserved to backfire as spectacularly as it did, at least. I'd be amazed if he hadn't worked out what a risk he was taking though.

If that was the plan, he'd have been wise to come out afterwards and say so, rather than go into hiding. Arsene is very generous with the press and deserves the right not to talk if he doesn't feel like it, but I think it would have been sensible, if this was the case, to come out and say "We were gung-ho because a draw wasn't much use when we're looking to overhaul them. Their record at home is exemplary and we wanted to come flying out of the blocks. It was a risk I took, it backfired. It's on me." He'd be getting way less stick if he'd done that, I think.

[Rev]

If that was the plan, he'd have been wise to come out afterwards and say so, rather than go into hiding. Arsene is very generous with the press and deserves the right not to talk if he doesn't feel like it, but I think it would have been sensible, if this was the case, to come out and say "We were gung-ho because a draw wasn't much use when we're looking to overhaul them. Their record at home is exemplary and we wanted to come flying out of the blocks. It was a risk I took, it backfired. It's on me." He'd be getting way less stick if he'd done that, I think.

Probably any other day he would have done (if he'd made that decision on any other day, which I doubt).

Thankfully he doesn't reach a 1000 games every week.

[Rocafella]

This picture makes for some serious grim reading.

[The Fox]

That's just away games I assume? Still, not good at all.

[Rocafella]

Yeah, it's away league games. When it's laid out in front of you like that, it looks horrible.

I'm fine with Wenger signing a new deal, but his record against the teams around us and the fact he was probably the only person who thought we could seriously win the league with Giroud and Bendtner/Sanogo as centre forward options mean I don't think we'll ever win the league again under him.