The Problem The Uk Might Have

[Meers]

Think of this...with your current internet speeds, and the next-gen games becoming more detailed than ever before...will you be able to play them online?

Because, let's face it, the broadband speeds in the UK are way behind of other countries in Europe (esp. Scandinavia).

Bigger game libraries means that bigger data packages need to be sent over the internet, meaning it will require faster connection speeds.

Is the UK fucked (for now)?

[Jack]

There's no reason why games like this can't be written to work well on slower connections - it's just lazy net code. Alien Front Online on the Dreamcast had eight players and voice chat at the same time on 56k.

[SeanR]

There's no reason why games like this can't be written to work well on slower connections - it's just lazy net code. Alien Front Online on the Dreamcast had eight players and voice chat at the same time on 56k.

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yeah, but the PAL DC had a 33k modem

[hub2]

Battlefield 2 on the PC, which is due out on Friday, supports voice chat, 64 players and an engine which performing at its peak is just shy of next gen quality.

I think theres more which affect the quality of online play than graphics and resolution.

[Judgement]

yeah, like sharing the connection tends to slow things down, PES4 hates that

[Graham S]

Bigger game libraries means that bigger data packages need to be sent over the internet, meaning it will require faster connection speeds.

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Why do you say that? Are you talking about games being made up of more players or in game objects requiring position updates over the wire or something? More detailed graphics doesn't necessarily mean more netwrok traffic, as far as I can see.

[Capp]

More detailed graphics doesn't necessarily mean more netwrok traffic...

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Entirely correct.

[RabMyself]

But your not trying to throw all the graphics down the internet. Surely all the game is doing is sending information about the the location, strength ect of your opposing players and the console itself reads this info, then puts together the information using all the textures, sounds that are on your game disk.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

But your not trying to throw all the graphics down the internet. Surely all the game is doing is sending information about the the location, strength ect of your opposing players and the console itself reads this info, then puts together the information using all the textures, sounds that are on your game disk.

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DON'T SPOIL THE MAGIC!!!

Reminds of a story I heard a few years ago from a Nintendo of America employee. Apparently there was some discussion about supporting infra-red transmission on the Pokemon GBA games. The head of the Pokemon development group was passionately against is. With tears in his eyes he would say "But the pokemon go down the wire". Teleporting was just a step too far.

[Meers]

So basically it's the same type of data that's being sent as before? So basically what you guys are saying is that no matter what level of complexity the games of the future will have, with proper net code, any connection speed can cope?

[Capp]

There is one thing about the next gen machines that will put more strain on the connection, although precisely how much of a strain I don't know.

The physics and complexity of the interactions in the environments that will be possible. Keeping that in sync is going to be an interesting problem and inevitably use more bandwidth.

[Eighthours]

Well, I don't honestly know about the effect on next gen online gaming. What I can say is that the UK's broadband service is utterly pisspoor compared to most of the developed world. And the blame for that is laid squarely at the feet of BT. We need a significant increase in upstream. Most people only have 128/256 up, which is unacceptable.

[Nifta]

There is one thing about the next gen machines that will put more strain on the connection, although precisely how much of a strain I don't know. 

The physics and complexity of the interactions in the environments that will be possible.  Keeping that in sync is going to be an interesting problem and inevitably use more bandwidth.

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As long as your physics engine is competely deterministic you only need to transfer the applied forces/collisions. Easily do-able on a 512k connection.

[Spunky Monkey]

All you are really doing is relaying co-ords. For example in halo 2 the map is made up of co-ordinates, X, Y and Z. Every time i move it sends that data towards the other machines. It'll send data about what gun im firing, what bullets and if im hitting the aiming box. Everything else can work independantly.

For example PGR 2 doesnt have a central 'host' as such. You each play your own version of the game and get data sent back to you. so when im driving, im driving around the track in my own game. Your car data is being sent to me each time it updates. Now pgr 2 is a bit clever in that in 'thinks' ahead. So it'll keep going in the direction you were going roughly if the connection is slow. This means pgr2 hardly suffers from lag. However on a bad connection if you do something unexpected like a 360 you'll see the car judder around the track.

quake 3 is also like this in that it 'compensates' for the lag. Halo 2 sadly doesnt compensate for the lag for all players. The host is playing the real game, everything he does and happens to him is sent back to you. Thats why the host can shoot through walls etc because on his game the data he got from you shows your not covered by the wall, even though on your game you are covered by it. Thus when he shoots you it sends data back to you and moves you back into his line of fire. Thats why when its really laggy you seem to jump backwards. Your basically playing their version of the game.

[rockstarjez]

Well, I don't honestly know about the effect on next gen online gaming. What I can say is that the UK's broadband service is utterly pisspoor compared to most of the developed world. And the blame for that is laid squarely at the feet of BT. We need a significant increase in upstream. Most people only have 128/256 up, which is unacceptable.

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Don't blame BT. Blame the government for not allowing BT to run fibre cables to every house in England when they asked in the 90s.

[darkrich]

Actually bandwidth is very important for NG with respect to the inclusion of Physics within the game engine. The network will have to deal with more than just player movements & actions.

Bandwidth requirements will get very heavy if the server has to maintain, distribute and synchronize a physics state model as well as player state model.

I'd also imagine that reliable delivery would become the norm here, also increasing the bandwidth requirements.

[CurryKitten]

All you are really doing is relaying co-ords. For example in halo 2 the map is made up of co-ordinates, X, Y and Z. Every time i move it sends that data towards the other machines. It'll send data about what gun im firing, what bullets and if im hitting the aiming box. Everything else can work independantly.

For example PGR 2 doesnt have a central 'host' as such. You each play your own version of the game and get data sent back to you. so when im driving, im driving around the track in my own game. Your car data is being sent to me each time it updates. Now pgr 2 is a bit clever in that in 'thinks' ahead. So it'll keep going in the direction you were going roughly if the connection is slow. This means pgr2 hardly suffers from lag. However on a bad connection if you do something unexpected like a 360 you'll see the car judder around the track.

quake 3 is also like this in that it 'compensates' for the lag. Halo 2 sadly doesnt compensate for the lag for all players. The host is playing the real game, everything he does and happens to him is sent back to you. Thats why the host can shoot through walls etc because on his game the data he got from you shows your not covered by the wall, even though on your game you are covered by it. Thus when he shoots you it sends data back to you and moves you back into his line of fire. Thats why when its really laggy you seem to jump backwards. Your basically playing their version of the game.

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Essentially Halo 2 does what you're descibing for the other games, there's sending data about the movement in every frame to every client in the game would swamp the network, so it works on prediciting movement based on the current speed/direction etc, and then corrects it as the "real" updates arrive. There's an interesting article on how this was done on Halo 2 somewhere on the Bungie site. IIRC I think it even smooths the difference between the predicted and real positions, so when it corrects itself, there isn't a massive judder as someone else suddenly shifts a few inches accross the screen.

[Capp]

As long as your physics engine is competely deterministic...

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Thats a surprisingly hard thing to achieve. Especially if you are running variable numbers of iterations on the integrators depending on how heavy the load is on a particular frame. Fortunately its not something I have to worry about.

[Marzipan Travolta]

Net connections in this country in the space year 2005 aren't nearly as bad as many believe. Sure, our fastest connections aren't as fast as a lot of other countries but we are a broadband nation now.

[Graham S]

How Halo 2's networking works

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Especially if you are running variable numbers of iterations on the integrators depending on how heavy the load is on a particular frame. 

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In that case, I'd reverse the polarity of the neutron flow.

[Capp]

You want to watch for crossing the streams though.

[Smoothy]

I don't see how it can be a problem. As you may have noticed, broadband speeds have been getting faster and faster as time goes on. Nowadays the norm is 1Mbps, with some 4Mbps and 8Mbps being offered. If it was a problem, then PCs would be stuffed seeing as they and the applications that are on it evolve far more quickly than any console.

[spaceyjase]

Download isn't a problem, it's the upload speed I want to see pulled in line with Europe. Dedicated servers would be nice, like Black Hawk Down, but that isn't what Live is about.

Oh, some more responsive backbones wouldn't hurt either. People like NTL/BT or whoever owns this shit need to sort out their routers/fibre or whatever. The fact that somebody in my street, sharing the stream of cable-Interweb goodness can destroy my ickle share is completely wank.

[Ste Pickford]

I used to play everquest perfectly fine over a 56k connection; including being involved in raids with 40+ people, as well as other players getting in our way, monsters etc all running around in close vicinity.

That game definitely did all the predictive movement stuff people are talking about with Halo, as well as upping the amount of information sent back to mobs / players around you based on their proximity.

There was a nice upgrade in general game 'smoothness' when I went over to broadband, and less instances of people walking off into the distance then instantly warping back, although this is often down to their connection, not just yours.

In fact, it used to be a common 'griefing' tactic between guilds to spoil somebody elses raid by getting guild members to all go to the spot where another guild were preparing, and the effect of 100+ people all milling around very close to each other would create so much lag that effective play would become impossible.

Generally online games don't need much bandwidth, they need good ping times, which aren't the same thing at all.

The idea that more 'advanced' games will start sending more and more information down the pipe, maintaining server side dynamic physics objects and constantly updating everyone's clients more and more frequently to create more realism, is madness in my opinion. That's just trying to use the internet for something its not suited to. Much better to carry on with the current online game philosophy of designing games where the minumum amount of critical data needs to be transmitted, and the maximum amount of processing is done locally.

Why calculate physics on a big server and use all that bandwidth sending the results down to all your players, when all your players have their own processors available able to do all that calculating locally for free? Becuase the game demands it? Design a game that doesn't demand it!

[Venice Cull]

I see where you're going. And because anti-time operates in the opposite way normal time does, the effects would run backwards through the spacetime continuum.

So *that's* why the anomaly was larger in the past!

[FiL]

Download isn't a problem, it's the upload speed I want to see pulled in line with Europe.  Dedicated servers would be nice, like Black Hawk Down, but that isn't what Live is about.

Oh, some more responsive backbones wouldn't hurt either.  People like NTL/BT or whoever owns this shit need to sort out their routers/fibre or whatever.  The fact that somebody in my street, sharing the stream of cable-Interweb goodness can destroy my ickle share is completely wank.

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totally, and by the end of this year we should have 8mbit down (no big deal) but up to 832kbit upload (getting better)

that's the limits of ADSL...

for anymore upload we'll need bonded ADSL2+ lines....which will get us up to 3mbit upload....which is more f-ing like it

[spaceyjase]

The idea that more 'advanced' games will start sending more and more information down the pipe, maintaining server side dynamic physics objects and constantly updating everyone's clients more and more frequently to create more realism, is madness in my opinion. That's just trying to use the internet for something its not suited to. Much better to carry on with the current online game philosophy of designing games where the minumum amount of critical data needs to be transmitted, and the maximum amount of processing is done locally.

Why calculate physics on a big server and use all that bandwidth sending the results down to all your players, when all your players have their own processors available able to do all that calculating for free? Becuase the game demands it? Design a game that doesn't demand it!

o/\o

And I think it will continue that way for a while... I dunno, it just doesn't seem to make sense to do all that stuff you mentioned.

So *that's* why the anomaly was larger in the past!

I never understood that 'cos the anomaly opens *after* they have already been there. They opened it but if it is bigger in the past then they would have already seen it, no?

OT, oops.

[Tiki]

Wait a minute. Are you trying to tell me that every time I play Halo 2 they don't send the whole game down the Internet?

[Stolly]

Especially if you are running variable numbers of iterations on the integrators.......

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I ran 'iteration' through google and got this. I hope you agree that this clears up the point being made