Watchmen

[Venice Cull]

Wasn't just Moscow, every major city or something wasn't it? After Ozy said 'I started it 35 minutes ago' there was a shot of a load of monitors, each with a city name under and 'detonation complete' on it, with NY being the only one with 'detonation imminent' on it.

Oh, yeah. I was just pointing out to Primearan that Russia wouldn't think Manhatten was on their side, because he also bombed Moscow.

[Halo]

Some of the merchandising for this flabbergasts me. This is supposed to be an adult film, yet they're making Rorschach lunchboxes.

[PyramidFace]

Oh, yeah. I was just pointing out to Primearan that Russia wouldn't think Manhatten was on their side, because he also bombed Moscow.

Yeah, thanks for that. Evidently my attention was really flagging towards the end.

[MrPogo]

Can someone explain the ending to me?

I mean, I understood it but how is it going to keep working in the future? The comic worked as it both ensured it was very unlikely to happen again(so no-one could do what Veidt did again, including Veidt) but gave a real foe to fight against. The movie relies on believing that Dr M is evil and present - surely in a year or so with no sightings people are going to forget and humanity will go back at each other? The comic changed peoples beliefs of the universe...something that nobody could go back from. And even if they forgot the atrocity they would still have proof that aliens existed, which changes everything. Whereas the world already knew of Dr M and kept building up nukes anyway.

I do agree that having the attack happening to more than one place at once is an improvement though...

Am I missing something?

How up to date is Rorsach's diary? I thought at the time the discovery of that in the newspaper's mail tray would reveal everything and kick the wars off again, but thinking back it must have been missing some vital details from the very end...

[Rudi von Starnberg]

His last diary entry is just before going to Antarctica. Knowing that Veidt is behind everything, but before the destruction of New York.

[Wiper]

Can someone explain the ending to me?

I mean, I understood it but how is it going to keep working in the future? The comic worked as it both ensured it was very unlikely to happen again(so no-one could do what Veidt did again, including Veidt) but gave a real foe to fight against. The movie relies on believing that Dr M is evil and present - surely in a year or so with no sightings people are going to forget and humanity will go back at each other? The comic changed peoples beliefs of the universe...something that nobody could go back from. And even if they forgot the atrocity they would still have proof that aliens existed, which changes everything. Whereas the world already knew of Dr M and kept building up nukes anyway.

I do agree that having the attack happening to more than one place at once is an improvement though...

Am I missing something?

Except that the comic didn't give a tidy, closed ending either.

I'm fairly sure this has been discussed already in here, but

the fact is that it's entirely possible that scientists would cotton onto the fact that the 'alien' is, in fact, just a bioengineered squid; Ozy's not going to be around forever to cover up that fact. Also, the fact that the best-case scenario is still just another arms race - this time against a fictional alien menace. And then there's the potential timebomb of Rorschach's journal... things are far from solved at the end of the comic, so the film ending seems entirely in keeping with the original in this respect.

[Lorfarius]

Can someone explain the ending to me?

I think the main point was that even after say a year of working together in fear the different sides would benefit and be less likely to want to go to war again. The whole world united against a single threat would make the old squabbles seem pointless and after cooperating for a length of time the hope for Veidt would be that they wouldn't return.

[Wroth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wvOaF0k2ww

This guy is a fucking idiot (I literally attempted to reach into the screen to strangle him when he called the plot a "rehash of The Incredibles") but at the end he has an interesting interpretation of the new ending being religious propaganda.

I considered this also when I heard the very phrase that he mentions, but ultimately I don't think ZS was intentionally going for that effect, whether he's a religious person or not. Especially considering Dan's response that Veidt has effectively lobotomised humanity itself. I doubt any religious person would be proud of such an analogy.

[minstrels]

Oh man, this was fantastic.

[Froettmaning]

Except that the comic didn't give a tidy, closed ending either.

Precisely - "Nothing ever ends."

[Wiper]

Mmm, I actually forgot to bring that in - if anything, you can criticise the film for not emphasising the temporary nature of Veidt's 'solution' as much as the comic thanks to the shifting of said line from the doc.

[Wroth]

[Rev]

Except that the comic didn't give a tidy, closed ending either.

I'm fairly sure this has been discussed already in here, but

the fact is that it's entirely possible that scientists would cotton onto the fact that the 'alien' is, in fact, just a bioengineered squid; Ozy's not going to be around forever to cover up that fact. Also, the fact that the best-case scenario is still just another arms race - this time against a fictional alien menace. And then there's the potential timebomb of Rorschach's journal... things are far from solved at the end of the comic, so the film ending seems entirely in keeping with the original in this respect.

I've read the last 10 pages or so since I saw the flick but that was the first time I've been in this thread...so I have probably missed it.

Obviously I'm ignoring Rorschach's journal. But I just don't see why they would bother to work together against Dr M when he is clearly invincible - I'd be tempted as a leader to disassociate myself from the US in case he was going on a revenge spree. Whereas if it was an alien, I couldn't see any reason not to band together. Also, I'm not convinced it would make a difference that it might be discovered to be a bit of seafood - unless Veidt had signed it somehow it would still be an attack from an unknown source.

I agree it is still unsolved so it is the same in that (probably most important) regard, but I definitely don't like it as much - I like the idea that not only has Veidt given world peace, he's given people a belief in life beyond our planet and has joined the world in looking up at the stars together and there will be an "arms race" of scientific discovery of things in space. The film doesn't change anything - there is no hope of victory, you're just hiding under a school desk to avoid big blue dong rather than a big red bomb. That's no fun.

[Festoon]

Jesus! 71% drop on it's second Friday. That's really weak. Mr. hayter's begging letter didn't work, obviously.

They're going to have to sell a shitload of DVDs to make this profitable unless it's a gigantic hit internationally.

[Warszawa]

Jesus! 71% drop on it's second Friday. That's really weak. Mr. hayter's begging letter didn't work, obviously.

They're going to have to sell a shitload of DVDs to make this profitable unless it's a gigantic hit internationally.

It was always going to be a 12 / PG-13 to be a big hit. Even then, I'm not sure - It's not like, say, 300 which could stand on its own with its macho-stylings, which tapped the peculiar fascination people seem to have with half-naked fighting men from many centuries ago. To the layman, this can look very much like a dodgy X-Men rip-off. It's curious as to how it got given a decent sized production budget in the first place.

[Festoon]

It was always going to be a 12 / PG-13 to be a big hit. Even then, I'm not sure - It's not like, say, 300 which could stand on its own with its macho-stylings, which tapped the peculiar fascination people seem to have with half-naked fighting men from many centuries ago. To the layman, this can look very much like a dodgy X-Men rip-off. It's curious as to how it got given a decent sized production budget in the first place.

Doesn't change the facts - It was budgeted and released as an R rating (although it's only a 16 here in Ireland) with the expectation that it would do well. That target has been missed and it seems by a substantial margin.

Strange really. I presume it was a knowledge that this was going to be the case that prompted Mr. Hayter with his bizarre letter.

[Captain Novaforce]

Yeah shame about the results, but I for one am certainly getting the DVD when it's out.

One other thing about the ending that I've been thinking about, When the Comedian found out about the squid it messed with him so much probably because it was so bloody ridicilous. It really was a massive joke, not just the fact there was an alien threat but also that there was life out there. Also, the whole "people will more easily fall victim to a big lie" holds, as the thought of giant alien squids is so out there that people would probably believe this. The Comedian, despite being a sociopath understands human nature. I can't see why pretending Dr Manhattan was behind it would've undermind the Comedians sense of self and morality in quite the same way, it's not as much of a "Joke". However I can see why they had to change the end, the film would've been 4 hours long to get it all in.

[Mr Cochese]

Yeah, that whole scene now scarcely makes any sense, thanks to the altered ending.

[squirtle]

You blew your 19,000th post on me?

Aye, do that but please read the comic afterwards and tell me what you think of it.

Saw this today.

I enjoyed it...mostly. It's a strange film, but I was expecting that. Visually, it's hard to fault it. It's stunning in places, the FX work is top notch and the whole feel of the film is beautiful - reminded me strongly of The Dark Knight, a superhero film really grounded in a proper reality.

I think I followed most of the story, but I'm sure there were bits that I missed out on. I wasn't totally sold on the Comedian's reason for breaking down to his old enemy. I also thought the whole comedian/daughter story was a little laboured. It seemed to be there to give a slight reason for Manhattan to come back to Earth...and then do very little apart from kill Rorschach. Why did he come back? He didn't stop anything. He just buggered off to another galaxy.

The Nightowl/Storm woman (I can't remember her name) romance felt forced to. I never got the feeling that there was anything there.

I did like the reasoning behind the whole destruction of the major cities, though. Kill millions to save billions. Do it in every city so the whole world would join together. I'm also presuming that Adrian was left in his arctic base - like Kubla Khan. Was that the reference?

It's an interesting film. I probably give the comic a read at some point. Is it just one self contained graphic novel? I hope so.

[Andsom]

It's an interesting film. I probably give the comic a read at some point. Is it just one self contained graphic novel? I hope so.

Entirely. And it's a masterpiece.

[squirtle]

Entirely. And it's a masterpiece.

Really? I'm presuming the story is the same as the movie? If so, how is it a masterpiece?

[So. Angry.]

Really? I'm presuming the story is the same as the movie? If so, how is it a masterpiece?

Because it's far more than just "the story".

[Andsom]

Really? I'm presuming the story is the same as the movie? If so, how is it a masterpiece?

At it's very core bits of the storyline are the same. But the film probably only really encompases a third of the book max and even then it's really watered down. Imagine reading the Wikipedia entry for the Godfather Part 2 and you've got a good idea of how huge a difference there is between the movie of Watchmen and the book. Really, just read it - if say anymore it will ruin it. There's a reason some people regard it as being worthy of sitting alongside some of the greatest 20th century literature. It's a real triumph of its form.

[Wiper]

Aye. I'm not somebody who rates Watchmen all that highly (I think it's very good, but that's about it) and I did enjoy the film... but the comic is still by far the better work; much more intelligently 'directed' by Moore. It's also important with respect capes yaddayaddayadda, but ignoring all that, it's simply a much more considered piece than Zack 'unsubtlety' Snyder's translation.

Also, has squid.

[Mogster]

Really? I'm presuming the story is the same as the movie? If so, how is it a masterpiece?

Looking at some of your criticisms of the movie, the comic handles those points far better. Without spoiling too much:

The Comedian's breakdown, and indeed his relationship to Laurie makes far more sense in the comic, the former due to a rather large difference in the ending, which is also built up throughout the comic

In general though, a lot of Watchmen simply works better in its original form, and the stuff the movie had to leave out all adds to the experience. Then there are all the little visual tricks that couldn't possibly make the transition. It's superb.

[James Lyon]

Saw it yesterday. I thought it did a great job in capturing the style and vision of the comics. It looked really good, very faithful in some respects - you can tell the director felt he owed something to Alan Moore for the horror of past adaptations, even if he wouldn't necessarily accept the end results.

The problem lies with the story. I just didn't think it worked as a film. The threat of armageddon wasn't really put to the fore and thus

Ozymandias' sacrifice

felt tacked on. Now, you could say that that the doomsday plot was never the point of Watchmen, that it's about the heroes themselves, but that's because the graphic novel format allows you to flesh out these aspects. As a movie, the overall plot feels inconsequential, like an afterthought to get to the ending. I enjoyed it a lot, and I think I would have even without having read the comic. It just could have done with tweaking the structure to fit a film narrative better than it did.

[Darragh]

I have this to say: the "All Along The Watchtower" cue was one of the best I've seen in years. Seriously, shivers up my spine.

[SM47]

Probably a stroke.

[Smitty]

Nice, SM47.

[hungry joe]

I've read the graphic novel a couple of times; I just don't really care about the source material as a comparison to the film in this instance. Never in my life have I been completely satisfied with a film heavily based on a novel, and not sure I ever will be, so I don't bother to compare them in terms where a film will always be lacking.

not even Trainspotting?

As for the film - they basically castrated the end of it. The shots of bodies hanging out of Madison Square Garden. I can understand them changing the squid out of commercial pressure, but to go to the effort of clearing an R rating then to remove the horrific aftermath scenes is just plain daft.

The only thing that I really enjoyed was seeing Dr. Manhattan explode people. It means I now no longer need to see a real life remake of Tetsuo's hospital escape sequence.