Jump to content
rllmuk
The Hierophant

New Order

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, dreamylittledream said:

 

Knowing him casually over a number of years in the 90s I can assure you that overall he's a twat - talented twat but a twat nevertheless

 

Having read all three of his books - particularly the New Order one - that sounds like a fair assessment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/03/2017 at 14:25, K said:

That’s an interesting link, cheers.

 

They are a fascinating band. A punk band that started building their own synths in the late 70s and were hugely influential on music. So reading about the complex relationships was fun. 

 

On 06/03/2017 at 14:25, K said:

Further to the discussions around Peter Hook’s New Order book above, I went a bit mad earlier in the year and read Bernard Sumner’s autobiography, followed by Hooky’s Hacienda book, his Joy Division book and his New Order book. And then read Johnny Marr’s autobiography for good measure.

 

I’m not sure I’d recommend the experience to anyone, but it was pretty interesting to see the story of those bands from three different perspectives; Marr’s story is interesting in its own right (at least up until he leaves the Smiths, at which point it becomes staggeringly dull), but also for his perspective on Joy Division who he says were known round Manchester as complete weirdos.

 

The most amazing thing about Peter Hook’s version of events is his relationship with Bernard Sumner. I’d always assumed they were great mates who fell out some time in the late 80s / early 90s over drugs, money, and the stress of fame, but from Hook’s account they fell out pretty much permanently in 1977, which was before Joy Division had even released any music. Combined with the fact that Hook, Sumner and Stephen Morris were mates with Ian Curtis but weren’t really mates with each other, it must have been bizarre continuing with New Order after Curtis died. I know most rock bands hate each other, but Hook in particular appears to have been in a loveless marriage with his bandmates for over thirty years.

 

That said, it’s not as simple as saying that Hook and Sumner hated each other, as Hook’s books in particular are full of anecdotes of the two of them playing pranks on other bands and apparently having a great time getting pissed together. The only nice things Hook has to say about his fellow bandmates is about their musical ability (except for Gillian Gilbert), but he goes overboard saying how great a guitarist and songwriter Sumner is. He even says that he’s a better guitar player than Johnny Marr, which is not indefensible but also a minority view. Sumner does the same thing for Hooky in his book, so their relationship is pretty complex.

 

The other amazing thing is how quickly you alternate between thinking Hook sounds like a cool guy to thinking what an absolute dickhead he is, especially when he’s going out of his way to slag off Gillian Gilbert. Again, I’ve no doubt that he’s a complex character and his book is a great read, but it’s amazing how little he seems to care about coming across as a twat. The New Order book in particular reaches Alan Partridge levels of bitterness, especially towards the end.

 

I haven't read Marr's book yet but have read the others. I agree with your assessment. 

 

I think a lot of it comes from them being complete amateurs at the business of music and leaving it to other amateurs with disastrous consequences. There's a lot of acrimony there. 

 

From what little info there is in the public domain about the legal issues around the break up of New Order it does look as though Hook was treated unfairly.

 

But even by his accounts it looks like six of one and half a dozen of another. 

 

I'm off to see Peter Hook & The Light on Friday night. Really looking forward to it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, dreamylittledream said:

 

Knowing him casually over a number of years in the 90s I can assure you that overall he's a twat - talented twat but a twat nevertheless

 

3 minutes ago, K said:

 

Having read all three of his books - particularly the New Order one - that sounds like a fair assessment.

 

I think he is quite honest in his books (particularly the New Order one) that his behaviour was unacceptable and twat-like for large chunks of his life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

35 minutes ago, The Hierophant said:

 

They are a fascinating band. A punk band that started building their own synths in the late 70s and were hugely influential on music. So reading about the complex relationships was fun. 

 

 

I haven't read Marr's book yet but have read the others. I agree with your assessment. 

 

I think a lot of it comes from them being complete amateurs at the business of music and leaving it to other amateurs with disastrous consequences. There's a lot of acrimony there. 

 

From what little info there is in the public domain about the legal issues around the break up of New Order it does look as though Hook was treated unfairly.

 

But even by his accounts it looks like six of one and half a dozen of another. 

 

I'm off to see Peter Hook & The Light on Friday night. Really looking forward to it. 

 

Marr’s book is worth reading. He’s a bit too cool for school, and it gets very boring indeed towards the end when he’s basically the most famous jobbing guitarist in the world and is happy and rich and teetotal, but the first half that covers the Smiths is fascinating. It’s quite similar to Sumner’s book in that respect; Sumner is probably a better writer than Marr and Hook and he had an interestingly bleak childhood, but it feels very selective and a bit self-serving (unlike Marr’s, which is a bit self-aggrandising but in a more straightforward show-offy way). You can see why he didn’t even mention half of New Order’s albums when you read Hook’s version of events, particularly around the recording of Republic. One thing Hook said that really rang true was that Republic wasn’t a New Order album, it was an Electronic album - which probably explains why I like it because I love Electronic, but also makes it really clear that he should have done those songs under the Electronic name or as a solo artist.

 

Incidentally, one of the funniest bits of Sumner’s book was the unintentional running joke where he keeps accidentally becoming associated with the Nazis. The band blithely call themselves Joy Division, Sumner calls himself Bernard Albrecht, they dress up in weird fascist uniforms, release an EP with a picture of a Hitler Youth on the front, and record a song about Rudolf Hess. Obviously, this all kicks off, and Sumner works hard to distance himself from accusations of having Nazi sympathies. Then they call the new band New Order, and they have to go through the same thing again. It’s at this point in the narrative that Sumner casually mentions that their support act was called Zyklon B.

 

And yeah, they were total amateurs. I can understand why Hook was so bitter – I would be too if I’d been part of one of the biggest and most innovative rock bands in the world, and had very little to show for it because Tony Wilson and the rest of the Factory bunch were involved. If what he says about Gillian Gilbert is true as well, then I can understand why he’d be frustrated about giving a 25% share to someone who contributed nothing to the band – although I have my doubts on that, as a lot of accounts seem to make her pretty integral to the recording of Technique, if nothing else. He just doesn’t seem to like her or Stephen Morris very much, whereas he seems to really want Sumner to like him.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, K said:

 

 

Marr’s book is worth reading. He’s a bit too cool for school, and it gets very boring indeed towards the end when he’s basically the most famous jobbing guitarist in the world and is happy and rich and teetotal, but the first half that covers the Smiths is fascinating. It’s quite similar to Sumner’s book in that respect; Sumner is probably a better writer than Marr and Hook and he had an interestingly bleak childhood, but it feels very selective and a bit self-serving (unlike Marr’s, which is a bit self-aggrandising but in a more straightforward show-offy way).

 

I shall definitely read it as I love The Smiths.  I started Morrissey's book but had to give up. 

 

I actually got three copies of Marr's book for Christmas. 

 

1 hour ago, K said:

You can see why he didn’t even mention half of New Order’s albums when you read Hook’s version of events, particularly around the recording of Republic. One thing Hook said that really rang true was that Republic wasn’t a New Order album, it was an Electronic album - which probably explains why I like it because I love Electronic, but also makes it really clear that he should have done those songs under the Electronic name or as a solo artist.

 

Republic is definitey not a very New Order-ish album.  It is in fact my least favourite. I always put it down to the production, being in London records etc but I certainly can see what Hook says about it. 

 

1 hour ago, K said:

Incidentally, one of the funniest bits of Sumner’s book was the unintentional running joke where he keeps accidentally becoming associated with the Nazis. The band blithely call themselves Joy Division, Sumner calls himself Bernard Albrecht, they dress up in weird fascist uniforms, release an EP with a picture of a Hitler Youth on the front, and record a song about Rudolf Hess. Obviously, this all kicks off, and Sumner works hard to distance himself from accusations of having Nazi sympathies. Then they call the new band New Order, and they have to go through the same thing again. It’s at this point in the narrative that Sumner casually mentions that their support act was called Zyklon B.

 

Yes, you would think they would learn. Still at least they didn't end up being called "The Witchdoctors of Zimbabwe" a truly terrible name that I think was Hook's suggestion and favoured by Rob Gretton.

 

 

1 hour ago, K said:

And yeah, they were total amateurs. I can understand why Hook was so bitter – I would be too if I’d been part of one of the biggest and most innovative rock bands in the world, and had very little to show for it because Tony Wilson and the rest of the Factory bunch were involved. If what he says about Gillian Gilbert is true as well, then I can understand why he’d be frustrated about giving a 25% share to someone who contributed nothing to the band – although I have my doubts on that, as a lot of accounts seem to make her pretty integral to the recording of Technique, if nothing else. He just doesn’t seem to like her or Stephen Morris very much, whereas he seems to really want Sumner to like him.

 

Yeah I do think Gillian gets short shrift. Partly because Sumner is also a guitarist and keyboard player and partly because Hook has to justify how it was still New Order without her but isn't without him. 

 

It it must have been quite hard work being in New Order with Hook and Sumner and you can see why Morris and Gilbert stick to doing their own thing. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New live album. 

 

https://neworder.pmstores.co

 

Quote

1) Singularity
2) Ceremony
3) Crystal
4) 5 8 6
5) Restless
6) Lonesome Tonight
7) Your Silent Face
8) Tutti Frutti 
9) People on the High Line (feat. La Roux)
10) Bizarre Love Triangle
11) Waiting for the Sirens’ Call
12) Plastic
13) The Perfect Kiss
14) True Faith
15) Temptation
--------------------
16) Atmosphere 
17) Love Will Tear Us Apart
18) Blue Monday

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus - that means it’s 30 years since my first gig. I saw them at Birmingham G-Mex at end of 1988 (I think). Blew my 14-year old mind. Technique is my favourite album of all time. 

 

Interesting reading about all the bios. I enjoyed Marr’s a lot more than Summer’s - the bits where Marr describes going round record shops with Morrissey when they were touring made me feel a bit sorry for Morrissey - he doesn’t particularly seem like someone who’s had many friends. Then I remembered Morrisey’s recent Tommy Robinson remarks and thought fuck him. Sumner’s autobiography was ghost written btw. Bernard went to the writer’s wedding a couple of years ago according to a friend of the latter! 

 

I havent met Johnny, but I interviewed Hooky a few years ago when the Light was just starting. I thought he was nice to someone who was a fanboy - he was pretty patient with me when I basically said how I’d like to just bang his and Bernard’s heads together. And he confirmed he’d written the reply to a fan letter I wrote when I was 13 - said that whenever New Order got on a flight Tony Wilson’s assistant would hand him a bag of fan mail which he’d reply to. He came across as a massive fan of the band really, which made me love him more. 

 

He was a bit grizzly about streaming at the time and it was interesting hearing him talk about how the rest of The Light wanted to do original material but he didn’t want to cos it would just get illegally downloaded. He also spoke about a project to soundtrack a load of VHS cc tv camera footages of The Hacienda, he’d liberated before it closed down, which sounded cool.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was one of our first dates, very soon after we met, at Finsbury Park, outdoors, it pissed with rain all day, there were mother fucking umbrellas everywhere tipping water onto us, they came on and Bernard said “cant fucking believe you are all still here, I’d have gone home”

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent documentary about New Order on Sky Arts (through catch up) all about their collaboration with Liam Gillick for the Manchester International Festival. Well worth a watch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Use of this website is subject to our Privacy Policy, Terms of Use, and Guidelines.