Doctor Who

[Nick R]

It was just some implausibly handsome macho man. How Amy sees Rory, rather than who he actually is, in other words. It's a gag.

I just wondered if it was some specific heartthrob celebrity of the moment, like Robert Pattinson or someone.

I really enjoyed the episode, and well done to Moffat for making the use of a robot in the Doctor's survival feel satisfying rather than a cop-out! But other than that, most of the revelations had been part of fans speculation (the eyepatches being related to memories of the Silence, "Doctor who?" being the big question). So most of the entertainment came from the smaller touches rather than the big Arc Moments: the Indiana Jones sequence, the Doctor's brief "You can't rewrite a fixed point in time, who told you that?" objection before the universe disintegrated around them, the wi-fi gag, Live Chess, the increasing tally marks on the Doctor's arm during his talk with Churchill, the Silence mentioning Rory's deaths, "I'm his mother in law", and the Brigadier mention.

The openings of Moffat's finales/mid-series finales seem to follow a pattern: disorientate us by presenting us with radically different versions of Earth (the sky with no stars in "The Big Bang"; the mashed-up history in this) and skipping quickly between very different locations (the "20,000 light-years away" jump in "A Good Man Goes to War"; the Doctor's detective trail in this). They're gimmicks that have worked really well so far, but the very fact I've noticed it means I hope the same structure isn't used for the next big episode.

Last year I wasn't quite convinced by Rory retaining his memories of a thousand years spent guarding the Pandorica, this time I'm not so sure about Amy and Rory and River's memories of the mashup timeline carrying across to this one.

Also: seems a bit odd to use "a couple of minutes" to describe how long before the Silence break through in a universe where clocks don't tick, doesn't it?

Overall, I've loved this series, but I do think it was hurt by its structure - mainly by the need for a climax at the mid-series break. "Night Terrors" and "The God Complex" had many similarities (exit-less settings, childhood fears theme) so would have benefited from being separated further apart - swapping "Night Terrors" and the pirate episode around, as they were originally supposed to be, would have solved that.

Also, a big issue for a lot of people was the apparent ease with which Amy and Rory seemed to accept that growing up with their daughter as a childhood friend was adequate replacement for not being able to raise her. Having three mostly stand-alone tales in a row meant that it wasn't addressed for a long time. That wouldn't have been as much of a problem if there hadn't been a mid-series break, so that "A Good Man Goes to War" and "Let's Kill Hitler" could have been placed closer to the finale.

[Space Gibbon]

What was the point in the talk of sunspots and messages from Doctor fans?

[Blue Screen Error]

Last year I wasn't quite convinced by Rory retaining his memories of a thousand years spent guarding the Pandorica, this time I'm not so sure about Amy and Rory and River's memories of the mashup timeline carrying across to this one.

I suspect its related to the "you are a time traveller now, you view time/the universe differently" line from the previous series that covers this. It was used to explain why Amy still remembered the Angels even when they had been erased.

[Space Gibbon]

What didn't make sense (in particular) was when Amy suddenly remembered doing everything she'd done in the alternate reality. Shouldn't she have been aware of it from the moment the Doctor 'died'?

[Nick R]

What didn't make sense (in particular) was when Amy suddenly remembered doing everything she'd done in the alternate reality. Shouldn't she have been aware of it from the moment the Doctor 'died'?

That was my issue with it - Amy's memories of it seemed to be acquired some time between the Doctor dropping her and Rory off at their family home at the end of The God Complex, and River visiting her there. That seemed an arbitrary point for her to suddenly gain those memories, so I agree that 5.02pm by the lake would have made more sense (as much as memories transferring across alternate timelines can make sense!)

But if that was the case, she'd have had that knowledge of those memories during all the adventures she's been having from The Impossible Astronaut onwards...

[Space Gibbon]

That was my issue with it - Amy's memories of it seemed to be acquired some time between the Doctor dropping her and Rory off at their family home at the end of The God Complex, and River visiting her there. That seemed an arbitrary point for her to suddenly gain those memories, so I agree that 5.02pm by the lake would have made more sense (as much as memories transferring across alternate timelines can make sense!)

But if that was the case, she'd have had that knowledge of those memories during all the adventures she's been having from The Impossible Astronaut onwards...

Exactly.

Also, the Doctor changed a 'fixed point' before in Waters of Mars and the universe didn't explode.

[hereticboy]

What was the point in the talk of sunspots and messages from Doctor fans?

Oh aye, yeah...

[kensei]

The Waters of Mars didn't change fundamentally; history pushed back. This was a propercompletely break it moment. I thought the waiting for the right thing to happen kinda fitted with 'Father's Day'.

Though this is really begging for a writer to come up with a proper way of breaking one. Maybe having the Master do it or something and giving him a win with fun consequences.

[Venice Cull]

Good stuff.

I must admit though, again I find myself a little at a loss as to some of the events (I don't read up on the show so religiously).

How come all of a sudden the world was at this fixed point in time? I understand that River did it in Utah by not killing the Doctor, but in the last episode everything was fine and dandy on Earth with the Doctor just getting into the Tardis ready to meet his fate. Have I missed an episode? The last one I saw was him avoiding Amy in shopping centre (who for some reason was a famous model). What's all this about Amy not having any memories?

Also - why specifically did The Silence want to kill the Doctor?

[Professor Puzzles]

Because of his terrible dress sense.

[Space Gibbon]

As I understand it, what we saw in most of that episode was almost like a side-story, and a way to reveal what's been going on this season in a tangential manner. Everything we've seen since the Lake Silencio scene in episode 1 occurs after time has been 'fixed', and River has realised it's not the Doctor she's shooting. But at the moment the Doctor was shot, an alternate reality was created, then resolved, and that was the story we got in the finale.

As for why The Silence want the Doctor dead - well, apparently at some point in the future he will go to some place (can't remember the name), and in that place at that time no question can go unanswered, and no lie can be told. The Doctor will be asked a question (Doctor Who?) and he will have no choice but to answer. But the answer will have consequences, that The Silence want to avoid. Unclear why, exactly.

I'm curious about the whole Tardis explosion thing. Did The Silence anticipate that the Doctor would be locked away in the Pandorica, and seek to avert question-answering that way, or was destroying the Tardis their ultimate goal. I'm a bit disappointed we didn't get an answer on that.

[Professor Puzzles]

I reckon Moffat's playing the long game (oh ho ho) and his entire run on the series will be one big story, metered out slowly over however many years it takes to finish.

[mayor_mike_haggar]

Isn't the idea of a time travelling man being finally dead essentially utterly pointless, since, a previous version of him could just pop up 10 years down the line or whatever.

The silence are morons, basically.

[Not Thread Owner]

I'm more interested in the setup for next series (And presumably the 50th anniversary year in 2013 where I expect it to get resolved).

The Doctor is his own grandfather. Which explains his brain thing.

[footle]

Isn't the idea of a time travelling man being finally dead essentially utterly pointless, since, a previous version of him could just pop up 10 years down the line or whatever.

The silence are morons, basically.

But a time travelling man has his own timeline.

[locke_211]

The Trenzalore moment, when the Doctor is asked his name and can't not answer truthfully, which will lead to 'the fall of the Eleventh', will surely happen in the anniversary episode in 2013.

[locke_211]

Isn't the idea of a time travelling man being finally dead essentially utterly pointless, since, a previous version of him could just pop up 10 years down the line or whatever.

The silence are morons, basically.

Yes, but the event they're specifically trying to stop him getting to, is one that leads to 'the fall of the eleventh', so if that means what it's obviously supposed to tease, then killing him at that point in his life necessarily means he won't make it there.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

That was fuckin' godawful with some nice moments that didn't save it. Ugh.

Genuinely looking forward to seeing what comes next, though, because perhaps when untethered from this awful arc story and the production problems and maybe with Moffat's previously-unseen excesses all out in the open and now out of the way (and someone maybe curbing them like should have happened with RTD as well) we can get back to proper good Doctor Who. I think that's quite likely.

[dismembo]

That was fuckin' godawful with some nice moments that didn't save it. Ugh.

Genuinely looking forward to seeing what comes next, though, because perhaps when untethered from this awful arc story and the production problems and maybe with Moffat's previously-unseen excesses all out in the open and now out of the way (and someone maybe curbing them like should have happened with RTD as well) we can get back to proper good Doctor Who. I think that's quite likely.

What production problems do you mean?

[Hexx]

There's been a lot of stories about arguements amongst the higher production staff. Oddly enough I've seen most it Private Eye (not sure how it ended up there?)

[Hexx]

Remember Moffat's first episode? The Girl in the Fireplace?

When she reads the Doc's mind she says "Doctor. Doctor who? It's more than just a secret, isn't it?"

I think Moffat's had this idea for a while

[Rudi von Starnberg]

There's been a lot of stories about arguements amongst the higher production staff. Oddly enough I've seen most it Private Eye (not sure how it ended up there?)

Yes, I believe several producers actually left in relation to this. Most of it's stayed behind the scenes but it's there on-screen if you know what to look for.

Like the planned new, one-off alien in The Doctor's Wife being replaced by an Ood due to money mismanagement.

[scottcr]

What were the arguments about?

[SonOfSoAngry]

About how Moffat's narratives were too clever and how the producers wanted to go back to the nuanced, subtle approach of the RTD Era?

[Andsom]

Yes, I believe several producers actually left in relation to this. Most of it's stayed behind the scenes but it's there on-screen if you know what to look for.

Like the planned new, one-off alien in The Doctor's Wife being replaced by an Ood due to money mismanagement.

I know what to look for and I didn't see any evidence of these problems at all. It's not uncommon for scripts to be scaled back from their original form, it's not about mismanagement, it's simply about there being a finite amount of cash available for each episode. That's the way it is for all TV shows and its especially problematic on a show of this type.

Any tales of producer arguments etc have likely been exaggerated. Putting a TV show together is a pretty stressful business and heated discussions about budget aren't uncommon. I'd be surprised if any of them wanted to go back to the way things were in the RTD era (which was FAR from subtle and nuanced in it's story approach) as it's clearly a much better show now - certainly in terms of it's cinematography and style. It looks to me that they're making the budget stretch further than it ever has done. The viewing figures and the critical feedback don't bear out the theory that anyone has a problem with the way Steven Moffat approaches his stories.

[Rudi von Starnberg]

If you've read anything I've posted in this thread in the past few years you'll know that I'm not hankering for the return of the RTD era. Fuck me, Torchwood: Miracle Day serves as a pretty clear warning in that regard. I also think the show has improved immensely since Moffat took over, to the extent that I'll generally tell new people to start watching with The Eleventh Hour and maybe go back to the Eccleston series and watch from there if they enjoy Matt Smith's run. They definitely are making the (reduced) budget stretch farther than before; that's been obvious since Matt Smith's first episode. Cinematography, set design, the acting, the writing, everything's improved, pretty much. Moffat was responsible for a good chunk of the best episodes of the revival pre-2010, and oversaw (and penned) some great ones since. However, none of this has any bearing on my complaints about this episode, or this series as a whole.

I also don't give a shit about viewing figures and anything like that. My own view is that the entire arc of this series has been a mis-step (with the seeds of this downfall sown in the largely excellent 2010 series). Far too many ideas and plot points chucked in willy-nilly with no regard for consistency or coherence, with good ideas being necessarily squandered because too much is being shoved in (the whole 'three months later' thing in Day of the Moon, for instance - a great concept which accomplished nothing and made no sense due to the implementation). Far too many of the 'arc' episodes are just stuff happening one scene after the next with no rhyme or reason; Let's Kill Hitler was particularly bad for that, but it's notable in this finale as well. Things happen because they have to happen, and the pat resolution of it all rankles for me. Not to mention that there's a tendency towards the obnoxious at the moment. Not only the overwhelming BEST MAN I EVER KNEW OH THE DOCTOR HE IS SO WONDERFUL THE MOST IMPORTANT MAN IN THE UNIVERSE stuff, but... for instance, Closing Time's self-congratulatory bullshit about the Doctor actually speaking 'Baby' and him telling random shopgirls about the alien invasion going on. It just doesn't fit. This is much like the majority of Tennant's run, and on top of that we have heavy re-use of ideas - the ideas are just escalated and made more offensively stupid. All of time collapsing in The Big Bang is handled pretty subtly, but in The Wedding of River Song it becomes Emperor Churchill in Buckingham senate with steam trains going into Canary Wharf and pterodactyls in Hyde Park! Christ on the cross. On top of that, the stakes have become so high as to be meaningless. We're all united in disparaging RTD for going from EARTH IS THREATENED to THE GALAXY IS THREATENED to THE UNIVERSE IS THREATENED to ALL OF TIME IS THREATENED, but for some reason it's taboo to point out that Moffat's finales (and a fair few of the standalone episodes, even!) have similarly ridiculous stakes that just can't be conceptualised or have any weight or threat when they're so frequent. Similarly, the sheer amount of Doctor/companion fakeout death. This only works with Rory, since they've made a joke out of it; however, the Silence may as well have taunted the Doctor and Amy as well about how often they die. Even James fucking Corden gets reprieves from death, courtesy of yet another power of love resolution (this particular series' favourite method of defeating a threat).

Now. Moffat's said that he's going to scale back the over-arcing storyline for next series, and focus on less connected stories. Hopefully the fact that everyone thinks the Doctor is dead now will help as well, since Doctor Who is at its best, I think, when the Doctor is just an idiot pootling about on the sidelines and hanging around while stuff goes wrong. Moffat should also put more faith in the quality of his ideas and give them room to breathe. None of this will be essential to keeping the programme popular and successful, as Doctor Who is essentially a runaway train of success at the moment. But I'm pretty sure the programme could retain its popularity as well as improving the quality of its storytelling - it can definitely reach that level of quality, since even in this series it was up there at times (The Doctor's Wife and The Girl Who Waited, for example, not to mention The Impossible Astronaut even though it was all setup for the terrible arc, much like Utopia was still good despite The Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords being shit).

I know a fair few people here don't have any problem with how the series has gone, and the majority of people I know in real life also thought that Stormageddon was the height of humour and that the finale was just epic and amazing. But hey. That was a lot of words about a kids' TV show eh.

[locke_211]

I've always thought that if times are tough financially, then replacing a random monster with an Ood is actually really GOOD management, not mis-management. It frees up money to be used elsewhere, instead of making a costly one-off monster costume. Plus fans and younger people really like seeing old monsters return.

[Retroid]

Well it builds a more feasable, connected universe when monsters actually show up as minor characters (matters how you do it though).

Completely agree with Rudi's post, except for the baby talk, I mean what's the first rule of the Dr again?

Anywho even if he wasn't just fucking around (which I love the idea of and makes it 100x funnier) the Tardis translates everything anyway so it's not that stupid - especially compared to the logic used in most finales.

[Hexx]

The Doctor didn't really cheat time. He cheated history. He's recorded as dying at Lake Silenco. He was always have "died" there according to history, records etc.

As far as anyone else knows he died there. The "timeline" is exactly as it should be.

[mdn2]

But was it history and records that caused time to stop and everything to happen at once? Did The Silence cause time to stop and everything to happen at once? Neither, we were told it was because a fixed point in time (the doctor's death, not the illusion of the doctor's death) had been altered. This was the explanation given by the show itself. Moffat cheated.

No he didn't. The whole universe believed the Doctor's death was a fixed point in time, but in reality the fixed point in time was the Doctor faking his death. Time stopped because River didn't play her part - it had nothing to do with the Doctor dying.