Doctor Who

[Space Gibbon]

The correct answer is that the reason mels wasnt introduced is because she hadnt met the doctor yet. As soon as she did she tried to murder him.

A fair point. And yet since her job is to kill the Doctor, shouldn't she have gone out of her way to meet him, like, say turning up at the wedding?

[Madness]

A fair point. And yet since her job is to kill the Doctor, shouldn't she have gone out of her way to meet him, like, say turning up at the wedding?

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

Maybe as a Time Lord she could somehow sense that going there would be a mistake as her future self would be there?

[mdn2]

A fair point. And yet since her job is to kill the Doctor, shouldn't she have gone out of her way to meet him, like, say turning up at the wedding?

But no-one knew the Doctor was going to be at the wedding. He'd been erased from history at the time.

[LongHairStu]

A fair point. And yet since her job is to kill the Doctor, shouldn't she have gone out of her way to meet him, like, say turning up at the wedding?

We're going to get into complicated 'cracks' scenarios here - she didn't go to the wedding because the Doctor didn't exist, so why should she? And that may be why we hadn't met her before, because she was in the same boat as Amy's missing parents and such.

And, how did she get from New York? Think I missed something there, may need to rewatch.

[Space Gibbon]

There are clearly a load of unanswered questions - like who was bringing Mels up (other than Amelia and Rorytron), where was she living, did young girl from spacesuit regenerate in New York into young Mels, who then grew up?

[DeNeo]

A reasonable explanation, although I can't recall accent being mentioned in the previous episodes (the above, as well as End of the World), only translation as a method to allow communication. If the TARDIS performs accent levelling as well, how can The Doctor hear Amy speak in her native scottish tones, and why does the 9th Doctor sound like he's from the north to Rose?

There was a cockney market stall guy in Pompeii and Donna asks about accent then. I think we can assume the Doctor speaks English, so the Tardis wouldn't have to translate Amy, nor the 9th Doctor for Rose.

[DeNeo]

did young girl from spacesuit regenerate in New York into young Mels, who then grew up?

Yeah she mentioned that, something like 'last time I did this I turned into a toddler in New York'.

[Hexx]

Why then in "The Pandorica Opens" when River went to Amy's House was she surprised by all the toys etc "Doctor Why do I let you out?" - she'd be playing with them for years!

I think Moffat might have come up with the line "You named your daughter...after your daughter" and then wrote the plot strand round it. He seems to do that alot.

[DeNeo]

Why then in "The Pandorica Opens" when River went to Amy's House was she surprised by all the toys etc "Doctor Why do I let you out?" - she'd be playing with them for years!

What's the betting River gets her memory wiped at some point to sort out those little plotholes?

[Mogster]

Why then in "The Pandorica Opens" when River went to Amy's House was she surprised by all the toys etc "Doctor Why do I let you out?" - she'd be playing with them for years!

I think Moffat might have come up with the line "You named your daughter...after your daughter" and then wrote the plot strand round it. He seems to do that alot.

Well the explanation would still work. River would have gone back in time to a point in Amy's timeline before she lived there in her own. Wibbly wobbly etc.

Or she had her memory wiped. Or it's a continuity error. Who knows? You decide!

[Garwoofoo]

Yeah she mentioned that, something like 'last time I did this I turned into a toddler in New York'.

The whole concept of Melody Pond (little girl) regenerating into Toddler Mels is a bit disturbing. Presumably she would have retained all her memories and skills post-regeneration, meaning there would have been a fully trained-up toddler killing machine with an attitude problem loose in New York. How on earth that toddler then managed to get herself to Leadworth in time to grow up with Amy is something probably only Moffat knows (toddlers not being especially well known for their ability to travel easily around the world).

In fact what is the growth rate of Time Lords anyway? I'd always assumed it was much slower than regular humans given their long lifespans but it certainly looks like Mels grew up at a normal speed...

It's all very bizarre really. I have no idea how any casual viewers managed to follow that episode at all. The one thing I hope we definitely do get explained is exactly what the Doctor whispered to River at the end to make her change her mind, because if we never find out, that's incredibly lazy writing.

[c-cat114]

A fair point. And yet since her job is to kill the Doctor, shouldn't she have gone out of her way to meet him, like, say turning up at the wedding?

Or alternatively why didn't she kill him in the cornfield?

It doesn't bother me the prior stuff - the wedding is the obvious point yet she couldn't have known he would be there so could easily have missed him. Also I quite like the idea of her having always been there but only from now. But she had the chance to run him down or shoot him in the face and the concept of her toying with him or wanting to be in the Tardis didn't seem to be put across.

[Flub]

Or alternatively why didn't she kill him in the cornfield?

It doesn't bother me the prior stuff - the wedding is the obvious point yet she couldn't have known he would be there so could easily have missed him. Also I quite like the idea of her having always been there but only from now. But she had the chance to run him down or shoot him in the face and the concept of her toying with him or wanting to be in the Tardis didn't seem to be put across.

She said it herself. She's a psychopath. You can't expect her to approach this rationally.

[kircough]

But what about Hitler? Is he still in the cupboard?

[Flub]

But what about Hitler? Is he still in the cupboard?

Someone will have let him out in time to invade Poland I expect.

[Hexx]

I understand why no one came to Hitler's office (the justice bot mentioned "sound proofing it").

But good lord how did no one (police, army etc) come to the restuarant where River forced 50 patrons to strip.

[Corporal Flashback]

I just realised that the Mel in class thing is identical to part of the x23 Target X comic, where X23, trained from birth to be a psychopathic killing machine, is in school and twice gets sent to the head for answering questions in nutty ways.

[Professor Puzzles]

Or alternatively why didn't she kill him in the cornfield?

It doesn't bother me the prior stuff - the wedding is the obvious point yet she couldn't have known he would be there so could easily have missed him. Also I quite like the idea of her having always been there but only from now. But she had the chance to run him down or shoot him in the face and the concept of her toying with him or wanting to be in the Tardis didn't seem to be put across.

She is being chased by the police, you can hear the sirens, I guess she thought that going somewhere else where she's less likely to be captured would be best before she murders someone. She tried to shoot him in the TARDIS as well presumably but missed and caused the crash.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

I shalln't go into detail on how much I loathed the latest episode. Instead, I shall just say that I think Sean should change his sig to Worse than River Song because even Hitler came across in a more likeable fashion than either incarnation of hers did last night.

[Frosty]

Agreed.

River is Poochy the Dog. And Moffat's use of the character remind me of Homer's suggestions.

[Gregory Wolfe]

I know this sort of thing's been done before in DW, but I don't think it works in this case. Amy specifically says she named Melody after Mels, so she must have existed in her timeline before. Otherwise how would Amy and Rory have gotten together?

The same is true of River. Seemingly Melody becomes River because she is told she is River.

Edit: I still loved it though but the circular time logic seems at odds with some of the cleverer stuff.

[Gregory Wolfe]

Was the Dr's new coat explained/mentioned?

No

But

Don't look at me.

It's clearly his wedding suit.

[Hexx]

Nah - the green overcoat, not the Top and Tails

[SeanR]

it all goes a bit bill and ted during the gunfight

[Reidles]

My only issue was the antibodies. Mayhap cgi would have worked better?

Nah, it felt like old school Who with the low budget-ness of the puppetry.

So, for the first episode:

> Misleading title, giving the most notorious 'villain' of the 20th century a handful of lines and promptly shoving him in a cupboard for the remainder.

> Regeneration and massive reveal/fleshing out of River song character.

> Expert use of time travel premise - AGAIN!

> Classic Who style foreboding of relatively arbitrary antibodies.

> Continuity with RTD reign with shots of Rose, Martha and Donna AND what I believe to be a Cat-Nurse (Sister Of Plentitude??).

> Expert writing showing the genius (bluffing game with River's first reveal) and the flaws (GUILT!) of the Doctor character.

> Female Time Lord/Child Of TARDIS checking her weight in the straight after regeneration (on second thoughts, shouldn't Rory and Amy be a bit wtf at this process, or am I forgetting something?).

> "Shut up Hitler!"

I'm sure there are more points of amaze to note, but this is a guy who is so fucking confident of his writing. Justifiably so.

Also, I think Hexx mentioned it a while ago, but The Guardian said

"they are back. Even though he [Moffat] said they wouldn't be."

Was this a bluff on their part or did I miss something else - watching this is literally like riding with the Doctor, you really have to keep up!

In summary: can't wait till Thursday Saturday night!

[Hexx]

IIRC the Guardian suggested they'd seen a "Coming in the next few weeks" trailer, rather than one just for the next episode.

[Alex W.]

I thought that was a surprisingly weak episode that wouldn't have been out of place in RTD's run, fixated on resolving plot points at the cost of entertainment value and character. And also a pretty underwhelming resolution to plot points that we've been speculating about eagerly for weeks (baby Song) or years (River) which were pretty bombastically set up in the preceding episode.

[Alex W.]

Also, am I wrong in thinking that this has to be the first time that River meets the Doctor, which means that it's the last time that the Doctor meets River? That whole plot arc is done with? Or did I misread how they were meant to meet "out of order"?

[Space Gibbon]

It's a good question. Just how long has the Doctor been looking for Melody? Could he have gone off and lived the 200 years during which he went to Easter Island and met Jim the fish? Has he therefore experienced his whole relationship with River, minus one or two occasions, case in point: season finale.

[Alex W.]

Oh, right, I hadn't realised that the episode titles were Out There already. So presumably the timelines aren't strictly antiparallel.