Doctor Who

[Professor Puzzles]

Simplest explanation, obviously, is River-as-astronaut kills the Doctor. Perhaps the nasty people did something to her that mean she HAS to kill him or she'll die. Or something less silly sounding.

I think this sounds likely. River has been programmed as a weapon to kill the Doctor and the only way she can be free is to fulfil her duty; the Doctor realises this and sacrifices himself (or a clone or something) for the sake of her freedom. Something like that, but better.

[LongHairStu]

What if they just, you know, kill him. No trick, no clever escape, just kill him and that be that. Matt Smith can still have years of adventuring and then they can just replace him with a younger actress as River Song. Handily deals with the prospect of The Doctor running out of regenerations as well (though I guess they will have wasted one or two).

[LongHairStu]

While I'm here, following this article recently, how about having the Daleks win for once?

[minkee]

If that eyepatch lady really is working for the silence, does that mean she has a tiny little silence drawn on her eyepatch saying 'hey, remember me!' so she knows what the HELL she's doing.

[Mogster]

What if they just, you know, kill him. No trick, no clever escape, just kill him and that be that. Matt Smith can still have years of adventuring and then they can just replace him with a younger actress as River Song. Handily deals with the prospect of The Doctor running out of regenerations as well (though I guess they will have wasted one or two).

He's got a lot more than two left now, and that's never going to happen. Doctor Who wouldn't be Doctor Who without, well, The Doctor.

[LongHairStu]

He's got a lot more than two left now, and that's never going to happen. Doctor Who wouldn't be Doctor Who without, well, The Doctor.

I thought that Time Lords had 13 incarnations? The current Doctor is the 11th - how would he have more? Did I miss a reset somewhere?

And, don't get me wrong, I agree with you (though wouldn't a series based around River Song actually work?). Consider it my hypothesis from personal incredulity - it's sci-fi, I know they can write a way out of it, I just can't think what it might be (whilst remaining satisfying).

[Mogster]

I thought that Time Lords had 13 incarnations? The current Doctor is the 11th - how would he have more? Did I miss a reset somewhere?

Yup! It was in the Sarah Jane Adventures though, which is probably how you missed it.

The twelve regeneration limit has never been mentioned in the new series, so it's going to be pretty meaningless for anyone who started with the Ninth Doctor. For the nerds there could be any number of explanations for the change, especially as the Time Lords have offered more regenerations in the past. The Master has already had at least 15 incarnations even ignoring his possessed bodies.

And, don't get me wrong, I agree with you (though wouldn't a series based around River Song actually work?). Consider it my hypothesis from personal incredulity - it's sci-fi, I know they can write a way out of it, I just can't think what it might be (whilst remaining satisfying).

I wouldn't be surprised to see a spin-off series about River, but I highly doubt she'd ever take over as the lead for Doctor Who. That's not to say I wouldn't like to see a woman play the Doctor (especially now we have a precedent for a regeneration sex change), but River's character is just so different. That and she's simply not the Doctor, so it would be a little odd for her to play the main character in a show called Doctor Who.

[SonOfSoAngry]

While I'm here, following this article recently, how about having the Daleks win for once?

Didn't they win in Victory Of The Daleks? Admittedly they didn't blow up the Earth but they essentially ticked everything else off on their "Dalek list of things to do."

[LongHairStu]

Cheers for that Mogster - I just ended up reading about the 507 thing on Wikipedia. Don't suppose it matters much one way or the other - has 13 ever been mentioned in the contemporary run? - and they have the small matter of him surviving this one to deliver on. Let's hope we don't feel cheated when they do!

And the Daleks - I guess they didn't get their arses kicked, but that wasn't the kind of victory I had in mind. Something a bit more resounding, with far reaching consequences. (And I like the idea of them having a 'to do' list )

[Harsin]

That 507 thing was clearly a joke.

[kensei]

That throwaway line isnt proof of anything. There is no way a writer is going to ignore the possibilities thrown up by the regen limit. Equally, it is also obviously not going to be final

[Space Gibbon]

You could argue that the limit on regenerations was set by the Time Lords' council, and since they're not around any more, the Doctor can make his own rules. He IS the Time Lords, after all.

What's weirding me out is that at some stage, Matt Smith Doctor is going to go off and do things for 200 years. I suppose essentially he'll be the same person, but we won't have been privy to his adventures.

[Mogster]

Don't suppose it matters much one way or the other - has 13 ever been mentioned in the contemporary run?

Heh, I just edited my last post to point that out. The 13 incarnations thing hasn't been mentioned since the TV Movie.

It was implied in the classic series that the limit was an artificial one anyway. The Time Lords offered the Master a new set of regenerations as a reward in The Five Doctors, and indeed resurrected him for the Time War, so it was always at least possible to override the limit. Maybe with the Time Lords gone the limit went with them?

[Mogster]

The 507 thing was a joke. RTD stated as much, but like I was saying there's plenty of explanations available for beating the old limit. That was set at twelve, but that doesn't mean a Time Lord can't regenerate thirteen times, or indeed 507 times.

It would be quite funny though if the thirteenth regeneration comes and goes, and all we get is the Doctor going "Oh!".

[Lorfarius]

What's weirding me out is that at some stage, Matt Smith Doctor is going to go off and do things for 200 years. I suppose essentially he'll be the same person, but we won't have been privy to his adventures.

Tennant and Eccleston had lengthy periods off screen too. All the Doctors do.

[SonOfSoAngry]

Tennant and Eccleston had lengthy periods off screen too. All the Doctors do.

It's where (when) all the novels and Big Finish Audios happen.

[Madness]

What if they just, you know, kill him. No trick, no clever escape, just kill him and that be that. Matt Smith can still have years of adventuring and then they can just replace him with a younger actress as River Song. Handily deals with the prospect of The Doctor running out of regenerations as well (though I guess they will have wasted one or two).

The thing is, we saw River Song die way back in her first appearance.

[LongHairStu]

The thing is, we saw River Song die way back in her first appearance.

Sure, at the end of her life. Who knows how many regenerations she had before then.

Edit: She died at the end of her life - who would have thunk it?! And I realise their may be other problems with that, but then I think that might just be me not getting my feeble mind around the continuity.

[Madness]

Sure, at the end of her life. Who knows how many regenerations she had before then.

But she did in the same incarnation as we saw her in at the end of her life. Unless you mean past River...in which case, that's actually a possibility. Think I misread your original post.

[SonOfSoAngry]

The thing is, we saw River Song die way back in her first appearance.

Yes but we'll be going backwards. We'll meet the new (old) River Song and then she'll regenerate into Alex Kingston in her first story but every appearance after that will be the new (old) one.

...

I've gone and confused myself.

[Flub]

I don't know why people even bother getting worried about the Doctor running out of regenerations. It's not like they'll get to the last one and then say "Right. Time to wrap this up now. The money was nice but we've had 13 Doctors." It's nothing but a story telling opportunity. They'll probably end up doing a story that brings up the 12 and then resets the clock. It'd be a nice touch giving him another fixed amount and leaving it for some other creative team to play with

You don't have to worry about River Song dying in the Library on schedule either. We've got evidence from Usenet that Moffat has some pretty long standing beliefs about the show and as it keeps telling us "Time can be rewritten" What better way to solve the possibility of River killing the Doctor (Or whoever she kills) by making it so she never existed. That's the Doctor making a hard choice. One she probably would make him do anyway. Probably with a final word from her to Amy and Rory not to worry. She has siblings

And then after she's been erased from history. After time has been rewritten. Two or three seasons later have her show up like motherfucking James Bond at the start of an episode with a "Hello Sweetie. Did you miss me?" and kick off the most awesome series arc ever

[Harsin]

It's nothing but a story telling opportunity.

Well that's it, it's prime opportunity for a decent storyline with the Doctor having to face up to his own mortality in a way he hasn't had to before. Be a shame if they just handwave it away with "He's got infinite regenerations now lol" instead.

[Space Gibbon]

Just remembered - random thought - the Stevie Wonder incident would seem to confirm that River and the Doctor's timelines are more complexly interwoven than River suggested at the start of the season.

[Harsin]

It's nothing but a story telling opportunity.

Well that's it, it's prime opportunity for a decent storyline with the Doctor having to face up to his own mortality in a way he hasn't had to before. Be a shame if they just handwave it away with just a brief mention of "He's got infinite regenerations now lol" instead.

[Flub]

Just remembered - random thought - the Stevie Wonder incident would seem to confirm that River and the Doctor's timelines are more complexly interwoven than River suggested at the start of the season.

That's the thing. It's obvious when you watch River's first story that they meet like The Time Traveller's Wife. In a random order. That's why they use the diary to sync up. Even the Doctor in series 5 says "Her past. My future. We keep meeting in the wrong order". And then at the start of this series Moffat tries to recton them meeting in reverse order for no real reason than to get a line about the kissing. He seems to want to have his cake and eat it but the result is a bit confusing and doesn't really work.

Meeting in the wrong order does everything he needs and removes all the problems associated with reverse order. I'm not entirely sure why he's chosen to do it this way.

[Lorfarius]

Do you think he might just want rid of the character? She's had a weird foothold on the series since RTD's days so maybe this is going to be the final hurray for River Song?

[Ste_S]

Odds on a regeneration of river being the next companion after Amy and Rory ?

[Ste_S]

Odds on a regeneration of river being the next companion after Amy and Rory ?

[Flub]

I don't think he wants to get rid of her. He just knows he has to wrap up this particular story before people get annoyed. She's still going to come back for the occasional episode in the future I suspect. She's too popular not to.

And no Ste_S. She's not going to be the next companion.

[Eighthours]

We need a little-girl-in-spacesuit timeline. Why does she come out of the water? Is it her in the suit? Is it Alex Kingston really in the suit instead? How is she in 2011 and then in the 1960s? Does she escape the suit after she kills the Doctor or before?

Gaaah, hurry up second half of the season!