Doctor Who

[SteveH]

Dreadful. A whole episode based around Tate being one small step away from shaking her head from side to side Ricki Lake style and saying "whatever, whatever, tell it to the hand girlfriend" - shouty awful woman. She can't act, she just mixes in different characters from her sketch show. Fast forwarded through the whole thing.

[JPickford]

leaving a blank canvas for Moffat to take the show in more of high concept sci-fi direction.

I bet he doesn't do that. I don't think he's going to change the forumula too much. While many of us would enjoy 13 Moffat style episodes I'm not convinced the family audience will stick around for that. I think the proper 'make you think' sci-fi plots have to be sneaked in. Besides the lighter stuff is massively entertaing too.

I think he'll be more of sticker for plots making sense and we'lll obviously get a few more episodes in his style but I don't think he'll completely change the tone.

[JPickford]

Jesus. That's the kind of comment a numpty makes.

Nahh. bcass lives in a parallel universe called 'wrong'. Occasionally his communications leak through into our world.

Fast forwarded through the whole thing.

So you didn't watch it then? Shame.

[Paradigm]

Thought it was rather good, myself, really looking forward to next week's. Glad I'm not the only one wondering what was wrong with Billie, the lisp was really severe.

[Kyouma]

Tate's performance when she realises she's going to die is amazing, actually. Amazing amazing.

I thought this too.

I loved this episode. I suppose i have a soft spot for BAD ENDS.

I shat bricks when London got nuked. I thought the Italian guy was excellent, and it was like "WTF NOOOOOOO" when they got taken off to the Nazi like camps.

No seriously, what the hell was up with that? Even if London got nuked, I can't forsee Britain ever having death camps.

I thought the bug would have been more effective if it had some HUGE TENTACLE RIPPING THING that could rip Donna apart at any moment.

[son_of_helvetica]

No seriously, what the hell was up with that? Even if London got nuked, I can't forsee Britain ever having death camps.

Didn't someone mention the dalek theme was playing in the background when they got carted off? Could be some kind of alien-run concentration camp for all we know...

[Ravern]

Didn't someone mention the dalek theme was playing in the background when they got carted off? Could be some kind of alien-run concentration camp for all we know...

Probably more to do with the traditional Nazi/Dalek parallels than anything else.

[Kyouma]

Interesting. But the situation must have been pretty dire for that to happen

[Hexx]

The Titanic is falling to Earth! Harry and Amy laugh, remembering how the Doctor saved the day... but are horrified when, instead of heading back up, the ship crashes into Buckingham Palace! "No Doctor," whispers Samuel. "No Kylie," whispers Dad.

[JPickford]

Interesting. But the situation must have been pretty dire for that to happen

I think the situation was pretty dire. Petrol running out. No imports or exports. I think things would begin to fall apart pretty quickly in that situation. It's not too hard to imagine that and "England for the English" sentiment could take hold in those circumstances.

Then again there may be more to it. Harriet Jones was featured in the trailer for next week and she might be part of the emergency government. And for reasons I never quite understood RTD turned her into Thatcher so I wouldn't put anything past her.

And of course there are the rumours of Harriet being involved with

******

which would make even more sense.

[Hexx]

And for reasons I never quite understood RTD turned her into Thatcher so I wouldn't put anything past her.

RTD hates strong woman and/or mother figures.

It's a theme running through the season even more strongly than "Gays Rule!"

[JPickford]

RTD hates strong woman and/or mother figures.

It's a theme running through the season even more strongly than "Gays Rule!"

Give me some examples. I haven't noticed this. Nor the "Gays Rule" thing either. If anything he's trying to point out that sexuality is irrelevant.

Donna is a strong woman and he (RTD) clearly loves her.

[Hexx]

He loves her like he loves Gwen - she's an emotional empathatic woman (like Rose). She's not "strong/hard/tough/ballsy".

Off the top of my head?

Jackie - Always been seen as a idiot/spav. Not strong woman, just another horrid (ish) mother. The one time she has a big moment (bring the truck) it's cus she "does a man a favour". Even when meeting the love of her life (Pete2) she's focused on petty things like money.

Harriet Jones - turn into a "Iron Lady" (after Dr puts the fear of god into about aliens, and it's treat like she's the most horrible person in the world)

Queenie - again acts tough/hard and is portrayed badly by the show.

Martha's Mother - evil who didn't understand/trust her daughters. (Compare it with say, Martha's dad protecting her).

Martha was a sad sop who loved a man and not loved back.

The mother in midnight - worst of the lot of bad humans

Mother of mine - most twisted/evil of the lot

Donna's mother - evil bitch, both in series 4 and TRB

Compare that with all the time the woman have either been coweringly/subserviant to men, or been seen as soft willed/empathic/damsels in distress (Kylie?)

RTD's woman generally fall into 4 catagaories -

1) emotionally connected, empathic and wonderful "good" characters

2) Bit useless, can't do much (Mother in Fear Her, fat woman in TVOTD)

3) Nasty/Useless Mothers (all three of the new compaions have that. Compare that with their fathers/father figures)

4) Evil Iron Lady Thatchers

[Campfire_Burning]

Don't forget Maria's mother in The Sarah Jane Adventures - the most irritating and loathesome of all RTD's creations.

[Hexx]

Don't forget Maria's mother in The Sarah Jane Adventures - the most irritating and loathesome of all RTD's creations.

Never seen that, but I'll believe you.

[Hello Goaty ♥]

The series finale episodes remind me of the all-out batshit mental last ever Prisoner episode a little.

People are going to die in them i reckon.

[Hexx]

Hexx's prediction : They'll be a big reset button at the end, meaning most of the deaths/destruction never happened

[Eighthours]

Yeah, didn't that Pompeii guy say it was a spider? SEASON RUINED

Wait a minute... didn't we see some kind of flash-forward with a giant spider-queen-like thing in the episode? Which was alluding to how the doctor actually would have died without Donna there?

I don't think we've seen that bit yet. Anyone remember it in the ep?

[JPickford]

He loves her like he loves Gwen - she's an emotional empathatic woman (like Rose). She's not "strong/hard/tough/ballsy".

Off the top of my head?

Jackie - Always been seen as a idiot/spav. Not strong woman, just another horrid (ish) mother. The one time she has a big moment (bring the truck) it's cus she "does a man a favour". Even when meeting the love of her life (Pete2) she's focused on petty things like money.

Harriet Jones - turn into a "Iron Lady" (after Dr puts the fear of god into about aliens, and it's treat like she's the most horrible person in the world)

Queenie - again acts tough/hard and is portrayed badly by the show.

Martha's Mother - evil who didn't understand/trust her daughters. (Compare it with say, Martha's dad protecting her).

Martha was a sad sop who loved a man and not loved back.

The mother in midnight - worst of the lot of bad humans

Mother of mine - most twisted/evil of the lot

Donna's mother - evil bitch, both in series 4 and TRB

Compare that with all the time the woman have either been coweringly/subserviant to men, or been seen as soft willed/empathic/damsels in distress (Kylie?)

RTD's woman generally fall into 4 catagaories -

1) emotionally connected, empathic and wonderful "good" characters

2) Bit useless, can't do much (Mother in Fear Her, fat woman in TVOTD)

3) Nasty/Useless Mothers (all three of the new compaions have that. Compare that with their fathers/father figures)

4) Evil Iron Lady Thatchers

Not sure what to think of all that. I find most of those characters extremely likeable (apart from the obvious baddies\mother in midnight). Couldn't you do the same sort of analysis on male characters? The series is full of weak, flawed people of both sexes surely?

Do you think RTD disliked Jackie? She was a favourite character of mine so he didn't do a good job of portraying her in a negative light to me at all.

I'm still not understanding why RTD turned Harriet into Thatcher. Perhaps it was just for the (admittedly brilliant) Belgrano moment. But it seemed an unlikely transformation to me.

[Hexx]

Do you think RTD disliked Jackie? She was a favourite character of mine so he didn't do a good job of portraying her in a negative light to me at all.

She was presented as an object of scorn/pity IMO. I liked her, but I got the feeling I was meant to think "awe bless the stupid chav mum".

Compare the mothers/[grand]fathers of the three main companions.

Jackie vs Pete

Martha's Mum vs Martha's Dad

Sylvia vs Gramps

Surely it's just not me that thinks the males are constantly put in a more sympathetic/supportive/stronger position?

[JPickford]

She was presented as an object of scorn/pity IMO. I liked her, but I got the feeling I was meant to think "awe bless the stupid chav mum".

Compare the mothers/[grand]fathers of the three main companions.

Jackie vs Pete

Martha's Mum vs Martha's Dad

Sylvia vs Gramps

Surely it's just not me that thinks the males are constantly put in a more sympathetic/supportive/stronger position?

I'm not even sure I agree with those examples apart from the last one.

I don't get the idea that Jackie was an object or scorn or pity. I really don't see it. Could there be a touch of snobbery in that attitude?

Martha's Mum might was tad over-protective but she was pretty much spot on from her perspective. Her Dad was a child by comparison.

I just think RTD has created some very credible characters here with very human reactions to the Doctor turning up in their daughters lives.

[Hexx]

Jackie (of the top of my head) -

Flirted with Nine as he came through door in episode 1

Accused Micky of murdering Rose when she was missing.

Flirted with Slyveen who came through the door as police man, then had to be saved by Micky.

Lied to Rose (about her her dad's life. Although that could obviously be trying to make her think the best of dad).

Jackie's life "sitting eating chips" was what Rose described as boring and ordinary when the TARDIS brought her back, the life Rose couldn't go back to.

Tried to convince Rose to settle back down and ignore the battle in the future in "Parting of the Rose" (but it was what Rose thought her dad would do that drove Rose to carry on looking for a way back, "never giving up")

Even when Jackie did decude to help Rose, she whored around to get the truck.

Perved at the Doctor in TCI

Her portrayal as a sad lonely person in Love & Monsters, again being skeevy over the young man come to help

Ran around pathetically in Torchwood Tower.

"How Rich?"/"How Very" on meeting Alter-Pete. Also "there was no one else" (cue eyerolls from Micky)

Didn't fight to go back to real world to save Rose, for some reason Alter-Pete came back and caught her.

She was the butt of a lot of jokes too ("first time she's ever looked normal in her life")

(We could even say "Alter-Jackie" was meant to reflect our Jackie a little bit)

I always thought she was written as a sad lonely (and a bit desperate) woman who tried to hold Rose back, to try and make Rose settle for "normal", while Pete (or even Alter-Pete) was written a dynamic/supportive enabler.

That not to say I didn't like Jackie, or she didn't love Rose very much.

Then you've got MM who seemed to be bitter about MD movinig on, who helped the enemy to try and catch the doctor, while MD focused on directly protecting his daughter.

The mum's make mistakes while trying to help them. The dads' don't.

[zxcvbnm]

Wait a minute... didn't we see some kind of flash-forward with a giant spider-queen-like thing in the episode? Which was alluding to how the doctor actually would have died without Donna there?

I don't think we've seen that bit yet. Anyone remember it in the ep?

The Runaway Bride.

[Eighthours]

The Runaway Bride.

Was it? Oh.

[JPickford]

Jackie (of the top of my head) -

Flirted with Nine as he came through door in episode 1

Accused Micky of murdering Rose when she was missing.

Flirted with Slyveen who came through the door as police man, then had to be saved by Micky.

Lied to Rose (about her her dad's life. Although that could obviously be trying to make her think the best of dad).

Jackie's life "sitting eating chips" was what Rose described as boring and ordinary when the TARDIS brought her back, the life Rose couldn't go back to.

Tried to convince Rose to settle back down and ignore the battle in the future in "Parting of the Rose" (but it was what Rose thought her dad would do that drove Rose to carry on looking for a way back, "never giving up")

Even when Jackie did decude to help Rose, she whored around to get the truck.

Perved at the Doctor in TCI

Her portrayal as a sad lonely person in Love & Monsters, again being skeevy over the young man come to help

Ran around pathetically in Torchwood Tower.

"How Rich?"/"How Very" on meeting Alter-Pete. Also "there was no one else" (cue eyerolls from Micky)

Didn't fight to go back to real world to save Rose, for some reason Alter-Pete came back and caught her.

She was the butt of a lot of jokes too ("first time she's ever looked normal in her life")

(We could even say "Alter-Jackie" was meant to reflect our Jackie a little bit)

I always thought she was written as a sad lonely (and a bit desperate) woman who tried to hold Rose back, to try and make Rose settle for "normal", while Pete (or even Alter-Pete) was written a dynamic/supportive enabler.

That not to say I didn't like Jackie, or she didn't love Rose very much.

I don't think I'm going to agree on this. I don't see most of that stuff as in any way negative. She's just a human being - I don't think any of that was meant to show her in a bad light. Yeah she's a bit lonely and she still feels she's young enough to have a bit fun (having been saddled with a baby at a fairly young age).

How this translates into RTD having a negative attitude to women I don't know. Pete & Martha's dad are pretty childish characters (again not unrealistic) - does that say something about RTD's attitude to men?

[Hexx]

I don't think I'm going to agree on this. I don't see most of that stuff as in any way negative. She's just a human being - I don't think any of that was meant to show her in a bad light. Yeah she's a bit lonely and she still feels she's young enough to have a bit fun (having been saddled with a baby at a fairly young age).

How this translates into RTD having a negative attitude to women I don't know. Pete & Martha's dad are pretty childish characters (again not unrealistic) - does that say something about RTD's attitude to men?

How is Martha' dad childish? He'd moved on the from the divorce, got a younger and more attactive woman than fancine and didn't seem too bitter. When push came to shove he put himself in jail/danger to avoid martha getting caught. Francine was luring her in.

It's ok. You don't have to agree It's just one of the cliche's/features you'll likley to see in most RTD scripts/characters:

Like you see "trying to make a normal phase scary" and "good use of time travel" in Moffats

[zxcvbnm]

I loved hearing the Cloister Bell at the end, but FFS show us more of the TARDIS. I'd still love to see an entire episode based inside it.

[Lorfarius]

I forget whats the significance of the cloister bell?

[zxcvbnm]

bad, bad things about to happen

[Boyatsea]

Jackie (of the top of my head) -

Flirted with Nine as he came through door in episode 1

Accused Micky of murdering Rose when she was missing.

Flirted with Slyveen who came through the door as police man, then had to be saved by Micky.

Lied to Rose (about her her dad's life. Although that could obviously be trying to make her think the best of dad).

Jackie's life "sitting eating chips" was what Rose described as boring and ordinary when the TARDIS brought her back, the life Rose couldn't go back to.

Tried to convince Rose to settle back down and ignore the battle in the future in "Parting of the Rose" (but it was what Rose thought her dad would do that drove Rose to carry on looking for a way back, "never giving up")

Even when Jackie did decude to help Rose, she whored around to get the truck.

Perved at the Doctor in TCI

Her portrayal as a sad lonely person in Love & Monsters, again being skeevy over the young man come to help

Ran around pathetically in Torchwood Tower.

"How Rich?"/"How Very" on meeting Alter-Pete. Also "there was no one else" (cue eyerolls from Micky)

Didn't fight to go back to real world to save Rose, for some reason Alter-Pete came back and caught her.

She was the butt of a lot of jokes too ("first time she's ever looked normal in her life")

(We could even say "Alter-Jackie" was meant to reflect our Jackie a little bit)

Jackie is meant to be a bit slutty. So what?

So is Captain Jack. Plus, Jackie pretty much saves the word in Parting of the Ways, so I don't think that's especially negative.