Doctor Who

[c-cat114]

Watched the Torchwood finale so that I could do a defence/prosecution with the BA films students I work with. Not that I'll be the judge, that'd be a little unfair, but I might help on the prosecution side....

Anyhow, it was better than the first three eps, that's a plus, but it was still risible television and drama and deserves a second chance far less that other, better slices of entertainment like Firefly or Ultraviolet for example. I think the thing that bugs me about it so much (apart from that ludicrous mozzie sound that comes in every other scene to show that something dramatic has happened and only reminds me of Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps for some reason. Actually, scratch that, much of Torchwood reminds me of Two pints of lager: both equally sensible and with a similar standing in their respective genres) is that the rule set is so inconsequential to the story: Glen's the level headed one, unless she isn't, they travel in pairs, or in packs, or seperatley depending on nothing really, Ianto's the traitorous one, until Owen is, until one shoots the other, which heals up after half an hour, and then they're best friends, TWs liasing with UNIT or the FBI (or HBO) or whoever but strangley left alone to their own devises, Jack dies/comes back again instantly/within the hour/after a couple of days, Gwen's so pleased to see someone alive in the place she thought he was killed that she tells him to have a good rest in the place that she thought he was killed, guy fancies woman until Jack gives him the eye and then changes track in front of a society that would terrorise him for the show etc etc. And don't get me started on the coffee can gibberish.

It ended as it started: a budget and a half baked concept that doesn't know what it wants to be with a logo shaped like a futuristic phallus written by people with no care for the ruleset that didn't work out in the first place. It should have been a 7 series blockbuster viewing all of the sides of the Who universe that he couldn't do, analysis of objects mixed with detective work on alien activities. In the end it'll be a soft comedy drama that'll limp into a third series at best written and filmed by people who don't know if they're making Men In Black, This Life or Jackanory and end up with the worst bits of everything.

That said: Bissley or whatever his name was was excellent, right until he did what he did half way through ep 2 which kind of put a nail in the coffin of the character being the seies Q, fantastically cast though and, pains me though I hate to say it, I hope we see much more of him in the future... I'd vote for him taking over from Cap'n Jack anyhow. There were some cool ideas in both shows, just a shame to see them so clumsily, poorly, tragically realised.

[DanClassic]

Wow, I'm really impressed...with The Sarah Jane Adventures, obviously. Really good stuff, cant wait for the full series. Being relatively young I missed out on Sarah Jane the first time around, is it wrong to find her really quite attractive today?

Torchwood on the other hand was it's usual self. Had it's moments and was quite fun. They need to fix several things:

1)Consistency of tone and character. Everything keeps changing for no reason.

2)RTD cut the cheese! The dialog in that show can be fucking awful. If The Sarah Jane Adventures can be funny and clever while at the same time BEING FOR KIDS then you should be able to write something decent for adults.

3)Sort Captain Jack out. He is an awful leader. In the series we've had one suicide, one attempted suicide, people walking out, everyone had a storyline about how they felt they weren't being understood/were being ignored usually with fatal consequences, Jack's slept with someone under his command, he's kept massive secrets from the team which has caused tensions, he was fucking MUTINIED, at the end he just left his team for the doctor without a word...and lost of smaller things. And yet they keep going on about how he's the best leader ever! I loved him in Dr. Who and I do like him in this, but they need to FIX HIM. Again he is one of the biggest victims of the awful dialog.

4)Kill Owen. Ugly. Doctor. Smug. Dick. DIE.

5)The fact that the BEST MOMENT of Torchwood, was a 20 second reference to Dr. Who!

6) Too many stupid leaps of logic. (The fucking ISBN bit!)

I like Torchwood but I really want to love it, the idea was superb and it could have told so many great stories that wouldn't have worked in Dr. Who. Someone make them fix it. Please.

[Headache]

In reply to c-cat114:

You've just summed up everything I've felt about the series but would never have had the patience to pen myself, well done sir.

[Garwoofoo]

Also, has anyone else noticed that Tosh has just one "acting" expression - that slightly confused and uncomfortable look? Seriously, every fucking time anything happens. And even if nothing's happening. It's starting to seriously irritate me.

I realised during last night's episode that the actress who plays Tosh cannot act AT ALL. I should have realised this earlier but she's been a pretty minor character throughout, apart from in the Evil Smoking Alien Lesbian episode which was so terrible on so many levels that Tosh's IKEA-flatpack acting didn't really register. But she was really, truly awful in last night's episode.

The actress who plays Gwen, on the other hand, although still a hideous munter of the highest order, can actually act a bit. She's OK.

[Beertiger]

She's much better in Avenue Q. Probably because it isn't poorly scripted / directed tosh.

[scottcr]

SJA looks like it'll be fun for a kids programme. If I were 10 years old I'd be bursting to get home after school to watch it...

having said that, if that character Kelsie appears in another episode I'll thrust my fist through the screen... ARGH.

[SeanR]

no show needs stage-school kids. None!

[Salsa Party Animal]

I saw torchwood this morning off sky+ and it is good fun. But I think the characters aren't well developed (all of them) and I think I prefer Jack Harness in Dr Who than torchwood. As if he is a different person.

Sarah Jane Adventure looking good so far apart from one character. Will this be a TV series (When) or one off ?

[cassidy]

Sarah Jane Adventure looking good so far apart from one character. Will this be a TV series (When) or one off ?

Full series 13 eps starting later this year.

I'm hoping its a Sunday afternoon show and not a weekday show.

[JohnC]

Full series 13 eps starting later this year.

I'm hoping its a Sunday afternoon show and not a weekday show.

It will be on CBBC. Is that a weekday only segment?

[EDIT]It just occurred to me that there is a CBBC channel. Do they mean that, or the CBBC segment on normal BBC?

[Mogster]

I saw torchwood this morning off sky+ and it is good fun. But I think the characters aren't well developed (all of them) and I think I prefer Jack Harness in Dr Who than torchwood. As if he is a different person.

Sarah Jane Adventure looking good so far apart from one character. Will this be a TV series (When) or one off ?

It's going to be a whole series, starting early this year some time.

That comment about Torchwood's characters is spot on. It acts like an ensemble show, with each character spending similar amounts of time in the limelight, but the only ones I really care about are Jack and Gwen. Owen's character would be a lot more interesting if they hadn't completely miscast the role though. Still, with the promise of a second series I'm hoping the writers will be taking all the criticism on board.

[Jug McKenzie]

.

[JohnC]

Oh, and so I don't have to sit through the entire series of Torchwood (the first three episodes of which I found to be disappointing enough to completely put me off sitting through any more of them), can anyone tell me what this 20 second Doctor Who crossover in the final episode that people have been talking about was?

Crossover is probably a bit strong a description.

Jack hears the Tardis sound. The others walk in looking for Jack and he is gone.

[sweetdaddyg]

1. How did Owen pretty much immediately find the bit for Rift machine in that grandfather clock?

They only have a limited amount of time on the air so they couldnt exactly have him hunt about a bit, leave it a few days, look again, go "Aw fuck it I will never find it" then find it after a week of looking in every nook and cranny.

Its called Dialetic.

In reply to c-cat114:

Lets see you do better.

Go on, write a realistic script for Torchwood that would not cost a billion quid to make, has sharp witty dialogue and then lets see you get the actors to deliver it exactly as you want without them making suggestions.

Come on.

[So. Angry.]

Its called Dialetic.

Transcendental Dialectic perhaps.

[sweetdaddyg]

If you like

[So. Angry.]

I got this for Christmas from the office Secret Santa. Not really what I wanted but the main problem with it is that the beaker isn't actually waterproof. Surely that's crazy for something that's not only a bathroom item but that you're supposed to be able to drink from.

Of course, even though I know both washable beakers and waterproof electronic items exist (though not specifically Doctor Who themed ones) and have used them many times in the past, I wouldn't know how to start making one myself. I guess that means I'm in absolutely no position to criticise the manufacturer's decision.

...

The Dalek bottle opener I got was pretty kick ass, mind.

[scottcr]

SJA was also over-long. It ran out of steam about 20 minutes towards the end - but it's got great potential as a kids programme. However, if they want the parents to watch it with the kids as well, they'll need to make a few changes.

Like get rid of Kelsie. ASAP.

I quite liked SJA's 'domain'. Of course, it didn't make any sense whatsoever - alien computers and what not, but for a kids show it's the kind of thing that would make them go 'COOL!'.

SJ herself was a bit stern here and not as interesting as she was in the Who episode, but we'll see how it develops.

I'm a bit afraid that it all turns into a bit of Sarah Jane Investigates, lots of looking round corners and listening to Aliens with grandiose plans then using the sonic lipstick to get out of a sticky situation.

We'll see.

But get rid of Kelsie... NOW

[c-cat114]

In reply to c-cat114:

Lets see you do better.

Go on, write a realistic script for Torchwood that would not cost a billion quid to make, has sharp witty dialogue and then lets see you get the actors to deliver it exactly as you want without them making suggestions.

Come on.

I think you've mistaken the role of Internet armchair critic...

Or, alternatively, no ta. Digging the series out of the hole it's got itself into is too much for a script that doesn't cost a billion quid to do... so the budget you've given me is the dealbreaker (That and I don't do fan fiction, although I did do a pretty sweet Dr Who story for my daughter for Christmas).

But is that the problem then? The actors making suggestions? I'd have thought it would be them pleading for something a little more solid to work with. Seriously: the amount of silliness and plotholes in Torchwood shouldn't happen in something that proclaimed the aspirations it had. If it wasn't so thunderously disspointing I wouldn't even bother giving it a second thought. That and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many people say 'it's OK, not great but worth an hour of my time' or similar... If it's naff why not say so and hope that we get something better next series? You want Series 2 to be as poor as S1 was?

1. How did Owen pretty much immediately find the bit for Rift machine in that grandfather clock?

They only have a limited amount of time on the air so they couldnt exactly have him hunt about a bit, leave it a few days, look again, go "Aw fuck it I will never find it" then find it after a week of looking in every nook and cranny.

Its called Dialetic.

Please tell me you're kidding with that statement. Still, stroke of luck eh? And a coffee tin managing to stay in the same place for fifty years AND being in plain sight and all that. They should all give up their investigations now and just buy scratchcards.

[Eighthours]

But is that the problem then? The actors making suggestions?

One suspects not. The problems are the quality of the scripts, and the director(s) not getting good enough performances out of some of the actors. For the latter, maybe the casting has rendered certain things impossible - Tosh simply can't act very well, although the script's not exactly helping her. For the former, I can't believe how nobody on the production team noticed (or bothered to correct) the wild inconsistency of tone, and the breaking of the Torchwood universe's own rules willy-nilly. Internal continuity is important in any series, but arguably particularly in one like this.

I refer everyone to Charlie Brooker's description of the show from a few pages ago. He hit the nail right on the head. I did enjoy the series but it's painful to watch at times, with the sense that potential is being thoroughly squandered.

[Hambury]

Torchwood never quite grabbed me. I watched the first two episodes, and whilst it was reasonably good fun, it wasn't doing enough to keep me as entertained as all the other shows I watch (American stuff apart from Dr Who). So I stopped.

Then I gave it another go, it was the episode where three people come forward in time in a plane and how they adapt to the future. It seemed cliched to hell and back, so I didn't bother from then on.

Watched the finale just now, not planned, just happened to catch it, and it still doesn't do much for me. I think Jack is a great character, but the show just hasn't done him justice. All the other characters I don't care about one bit, I was half hoping they would all die, so season 2 can start from scratch.

It seems to suffer from an identity crises and as if each episode is directed by about 5 different people, it just goes all over the place. And the swearing, I just don't get it. Is that their attempt to make it adult? It just doesn't fit when the characters can't deliver the lines convincingly.

I want it to do well, I would love to see British sci-fi actually being good, but at the moment, there's Who, and that's it.

[Salsa Party Animal]

It would be nice to get some more decent writers for those three show to make it more professional like 24, Alias, Sopranos, and co.

[SeanR]

bit gay though, isn't it?

[Campfire_Burning]

I actually quite liked the character of Kelsie in SJA. At first she grated and she seemed to be played by an actress (and I use the term advisedly) too old for the role, but by the end of it she'd had a few very funny lines and been the butt of a few more, so she can stay.

The mum at the end of the episode was much, much worse. I dread her appearing again.

I also liked Sarah Jane's loft, with all it's Whovian memorabilia and it's surrogate husband computer. It made marginally more sense to have a robot dog with its arse in a black hole in the dumb waiter than it did having a pterodactyl in the Torchwood base.

[cassidy]

bit gay though, isn't it?

which is only a problem if your a bigot, to be perfectly fuckin honest. Shit I really should get less lovely friends who happen to be gay. I swear their slowly turning me

[SaintM]

I've enjoyed Torchwood. More 'soapy' than Dr Who, which obviously has little character development outside the main two.

I'm a bit surprised that people are pointing out flaws in the scripts (coffee tin with message, rift machine piece in the clock), it's a freaking sci-fi for pity's sake. It involves aliens and the like, it's not a documentary after all.

Reminds me a bit of http://youtube.com/watch?v=-rnfHkpawtg

[So. Angry.]

it's a freaking sci-fi for pity's sake.

Actually, you're completely right about that. It's sci-fi by numbers.

Now who do I have to kill to get some SF?

[sweetdaddyg]

I think you've mistaken the role of Internet armchair critic...

Or, alternatively, no ta. Digging the series out of the hole it's got itself into is too much for a script that doesn't cost a billion quid to do... so the budget you've given me is the dealbreaker (That and I don't do fan fiction, although I did do a pretty sweet Dr Who story for my daughter for Christmas).

But is that the problem then? The actors making suggestions? I'd have thought it would be them pleading for something a little more solid to work with. Seriously: the amount of silliness and plotholes in Torchwood shouldn't happen in something that proclaimed the aspirations it had. If it wasn't so thunderously disspointing I wouldn't even bother giving it a second thought. That and for the life of me I cannot understand why so many people say 'it's OK, not great but worth an hour of my time' or similar... If it's naff why not say so and hope that we get something better next series? You want Series 2 to be as poor as S1 was?

Please tell me you're kidding with that statement. Still, stroke of luck eh? And a coffee tin managing to stay in the same place for fifty years AND being in plain sight and all that. They should all give up their investigations now and just buy scratchcards.

No I have never mistaken the role of internet armchair critic to be totally negative without appreciating the work that goes into making a show like this.

As for my challenge to "Do better or shut up", or as the legendary Ted Dibiase would put it "Put up or shut up" I take your response as "I can't do better myself but I sure as hell can slag the show off for all its worth"

And to address your claim that EVERYONE says its naff or not worth their time, the last time I checked 23 people on an internet forum does not really count as a guage for popular opinion. Any member of Joe Public I speak to think its on eof the best shows on tv. As I am sure you are aware Joe Public are morons, but everything in this world is made for the lowest common denominator so please, feel free to post 50 more similar posts about how you hate the show and that you think it should be taken off the air because you dont like it.

And no, I was not kidding with that statement. I can almost guarantee you that this was why Owen discovered the macguffin almost straight away. Doctor Who and its related spin offs all rely on macguffins and have done since day one.

But your a nice fella.

[So. Angry.]

As for my challenge to "Do better or shut up", or as the legendary Ted Dibiase would put it "Put up or shut up" I take your response as "I can't do better myself but I sure as hell can slag the show off for all its worth"

When obviously the correct response is "That's a retarded argument. I doubt you could make a TV show under those constraints either so surely your opinion that it's 'good' is just as invalid."

If things were only worthy of being judged by their creator's peers then we should just shut every thread in this forum and turn it into a blog for Biglime and the Pickfords.

[c-cat114]

But your a nice fella.

Truefax