Doctor Who

[The Boatman]

On the subject of Cybermen, has anyone else got the DVD of The Invasion? Now that's a proper Cyberman story. And the Cosgrove Hall animated replacements for episodes 1 and 4 are awesome.

[So. Angry.]

Captain Jack should of shot her in the head as it would be too risky to let the thing live.

Don't be ridiculous. It's insane to assume a firearm trained operative of an organisation determined to protect humanity in the face of alien threats could shoot a target in the head from twelve feet.

[Alex W.]

GOOD

BAD

Just to clarify my stance. I think if she'd made the cool walking sound she could've gotten away from it. And, y'know, if she had a better death scene than being coated in barbecue sauce, being eaten by a pteradactyl, and transferring her brain (somehow, while being eaten by a pteradactyl which would surely quite like to eat her brain) into another body.

[So. Angry.]

Good god, Ianto. Get more fibre in your diet.

[Alex W.]

They had to shorten the death scene, here's a still from the deleted segment.

[Mogster]

I think if she'd made the cool walking sound she could've gotten away from it.

She did, randomly, after she went all Cyberman on their asses.

[sweetdaddyg]

What surprises me the most about TW is that having spoken to a few friends on the school run and all that the level of enjoyment they're getting from the show despite the fact that generally the sentences start with the words 'I know it's crap but...' That's what I can't figure out. Most of them are big time Dr Who fans and I know they'd never say that about Who so why do the allowances get made for Torchy? (Just imagine how much they might enjoy it if, for example, it wasn't crap?) I've given up putting my point of view (although tbh I try not to rant, just say that it's not the show I hoped to see) because generally they tend to agree with it all and still say they enjoyed it. What's a plot hole between... Well, between what exactly?

The only thing I can think is that the goodwill generated by the past couple of Dr Who series has been transferred over to TW... In which case it leaves me wondering if the negative kudos that Torchy is clocking up could have some sort of damaging effect on the parent show.... Again not sure but I hope it's not the case. Anyhow at the least I was heartened by the fact that bringing it up with some BA film/media students in a neutral way brought out some well reasoned comments about the positives (small) vs negatives (pretty major). The consensus seemed to be that Torchy doesn't know what it is: it's still produced like a child centric production (colour wise/storyline/direction and acting) yet it thinks it wants to be CSI or the Xfiles... The storylines minus the swearing and the immature references to sex wouldn't look out of place in an early evening slot yet the 'sexy', 'adult' additions just make it look more childish and noisily teenage. If you were trying to pin down the character of the show it'd be half emo, half barbie doll, half American, half Welsh, half for kids and 10% for adults so basically the numbers don't add up. Was a bizarre lesson when we did TW (we started off doing Seven Samurai and then got sidetracked ). The other consensus of the lesson was that during the 2am repeat slot (or whenever it was) it was probably the best of a bad bunch on at the time but that all told it would have been better to be asleep.

You think waaaaaayyyyyy too much about a tv show.

Have a wank.

I'm just having a hard time reconciling the way the Cyberwoman looks with this scene...

If you had listened to the dialogue you would have noticed they explained that the cybermen were running short on time and started doing half-arsed conversions to get more troops...

[c-cat114]

Can't. Thinking too much.

Which does seem to be sort of couter-cultural for these parts I know.

Anyhow: new Cybermen = design classic.

New Cybermen catchphrase = little bit tired.

Torchwood = Very tired indeed.

In other news just had my BSG series 2 dvd delivered from cd-wow and watching through it again (having recently gone through the mini-series and series 1 dvds (which, when you only have two free evenings in a week isn't bad going I can tell you. I'd compare and contrast the two against each other but tbh that would be very unkind.

[cassidy]

It's alright saying dont make Whedon comparisons, but Abbott is lifting all his ideas fom him! With the production values of Blue Peter!

Whose Abbot? He's the writer behind Shameless and Clocking off. He's Russell Davies mate granted but has nothing to do with new Who.

Boatman, so The Invasion is really good then? I'm tempted to get it as I've never seen the episodes. I should really seeing as I know the guy who got the animation done. Can you believe the BBC initially didnt want it released. It was just going to be on the BBC website then they saw the results and thought about doing it on DVD.

[The Boatman]

Boatman, so The Invasion is really good then? I'm tempted to get it as I've never seen the episodes. I should really seeing as I know the guy who got the animation done. Can you believe the BBC initially didnt want it released. It was just going to be on the BBC website then they saw the results and thought about doing it on DVD.

It's a superb story. It was basically the template for season 7 so if you like any of that season it's essential. (unless you're just referring to the animation episodes?) The digital cleanup has really improved the story, it's soooo much better than the 90s VHS version, although the DVD does include Nicholas Courtney's narration links. One of my fave stories ever, actually!

However, I've got to admit that the 'Cyberwoman' episode really reminded me of the 'Creeping Moss' episode of Darkplace, where Lucien falls in love with a woman who's being bodily taken over by an alien menace and Rick has to kill her... but at the end the two buddies grudgingly make up in a 'bros b4 hos' sort of way...

[So. Angry.]

If you had listened to the dialogue you would have noticed they explained that the cybermen were running short on time and started doing half-arsed conversions to get more troops...

If you weren't being so busy being serious and grim and gritty you might have noticed the post where I explain it was supposed to be a spunk joke.

Not a very good spunk joke mind but seeing as how you're fond of juvenile humour I thought you'd appreciate it...

[jcafarley]

I just watched 'Cyberwoman' and I have to say it was possibly some of the worst TV I've seen this year. The whole show just feels so juvenile, and not in a good way. They made out that the show was going to be a more 'adult' take on the Dr Who universe, but it seems that just means sticking in a few swear words, some 'risque' kisses and the usual bullshit about 'we are so cool, we are outside the government etc...'

It just feels so cliched, tired and old.

Russell Davies claims he was inspired by Buffy with the new Dr Who and Torchwood. I don't think he's ever watched it, just heard about it.

[Boyatsea]

I liked the concept, but there was some poor execution in that episode. It just ended up with half an hour of the Torchwood team playing cat and mouse with this CyberBitch. Bit daft.

Russell Davies claims he was inspired by Buffy with the new Dr Who and Torchwood. I don't think he's ever watched it, just heard about it.

No - sadly, he really is a fan of that crap.

[Lorfarius]

Russell Davies claims he was inspired by Buffy with the new Dr Who and Torchwood. I don't think he's ever watched it, just heard about it.

He could have been inspired by Buffy's 4th season and beyond. Utter drivel.

[sandman]

Late to the party, but I only watched the first episode of Torchwood last night,

what utter crap!

I cannot believe how terrible it was. Does it get any better? And whats with all the swearing/violence, my 6 year old prefers it to me but I have to keep covering her ears/eyes

[Lorfarius]

Late to the party, but I only watched the first episode of Torchwood last night,

what utter crap!

I cannot believe how terrible it was. Does it get any better? And whats with all the swearing/violence, my 6 year old prefers it to me but I have to keep covering her ears/eyes

Nope, only worse.

[Jack]

Why would I do that when I'm talking about Torchwood?

You seem to have some kind of enormous Whedon-shaped chip on your shoulder about not enjoying anything to do with Doctor Who, so perhaps you should try not watching Doctor Who or Torchwood.

[ZOK]

Well, that was the first and last episode of Torchwood that I'll be watching. Hilariously bad. Are they real actors? I couldn't get over the sense that it was some sort of acting YTS thing, and all the shots of Ceeyardiff served to add to that. In fact, the show it reminds me of more than anything is 'Why Don't You?', and those who remember it will possibly agree.

I can only assume that this somehow fits in with the beeb's obligation to fund regional programming. If so, they'd have been better off adding a sci-fi element to 'Pobl Y Cwm' or something. It would be more believable.

[Boyatsea]

Well, that was the first and last episode of Torchwood that I'll be watching. Hilariously bad. Are they real actors? I couldn't get over the sense that it was some sort of acting YTS thing, and all the shots of Ceeyardiff served to add to that. In fact, the show it reminds me of more than anything is 'Why Don't You?', and those who remember it will possibly agree.

I can only assume that this somehow fits in with the beeb's obligation to fund regional programming. If so, they'd have been better off adding a sci-fi element to 'Pobl Y Cwm' or something. It would be more believable.

Given Doctor Who is also made by BBC Wales, I should think they're probably covered on the "give-BBC-Wales-something-to-do-will-you?" front.

Plus, they can show me those gorgeous shots of Cardiff anytime they want. Hardly different to the shots of London when the Doc pays a visit, really.

I think it's entirely to do with the fact that instead of looking like people integrated with machinery/technology, they look like people wearing arbitrary, silly, silver plastic shapes on their body.

Season 4 of Buffy did better cybermen.

You're a nut sometimes, Stu.

The latest Cyberman design is the aces.

Though, I will always love...

Ex-cell-ent.

[ZOK]

Given Doctor Who is also made by BBC Wales, I should think they're probably covered on the "give-BBC-Wales-something-to-do-will-you?" front.

Plus, they can show me those gorgeous shots of Cardiff anytime they want. Hardly different to the shots of London when the Doc pays a visit, really.

I take it you agree with me then?

[Boyatsea]

Nope.

The latest Torchwood was a bit naff, mind.

[Alex W.]

Did anyone watch Jonathan Ross last night? They had John Barrowman on, being incredibly hilarious.

[sweetdaddyg]

If you weren't being so busy being serious and grim and gritty you might have noticed the post where I explain it was supposed to be a spunk joke.

Not a very good spunk joke mind but seeing as how you're fond of juvenile humour I thought you'd appreciate it...

If you'd have noticed I am anti-grim and gritty and on it goes.......

[So. Angry.]

If you'd have noticed I am anti-grim and gritty and on it goes.......

If I was you I'd get your sarcasm detector checked.

[Boyatsea]

C'mon girls.

[So. Angry.]

C'mon girls.

[Beta]

Did anyone watch Jonathan Ross last night? They had John Barrowman on, being incredibly hilarious.

Aye, he was pretty damn funny on it. In fact, last night's Jonathan Ross was probably the best one I've seen in a good long while.

As far as Torchwood goes, like everyone here I'm pretty disappointed. I actually thought that the first two episodes weren't that bad, enjoyable enough bits of fluff, but things have gotten much worse in the last two weeks. I was holding out for this Cyberwoman episode to be a good'un, but without doubt it was the worst one yet. Possibly the only thing I liked about it was the way that Asian scientist looked after that modification attempt on him, it was quite nasty and looked pretty good. Or at least it was the first time they zoomed in on it, before highlighting it on the screen enough times afterwards to desensitise the audience to it.

[Professor Puzzles]

In fact, the show it reminds me of more than anything is 'Why Don't You?', and those who remember it will possibly agree.

You've hit the nail right on the head there!

[FishyFish]

There's an interesting blog entry on the Off the Telly website about Torchwood:

02 November 2006

TORCHWOULDN'T DO THAT IN REAL LIFE

Watching the third episode of Torchwood, things were rolling along quite merrily for me until the moment when Gwen decides to take that week's alien gizmo home. For some reason I couldn't get past this point - the same thing had happened during episode one. I mean, if Torchwood existed for real that wouldn't happen - it just wouldn't. Similarly, its agents wouldn't simply down tools at the end of their shift and go home - there would be protocols, screenings, and - you know - stuff that comes with working for a top secret organisation.

Similarly, one of the reasons I didn't enjoy series two of Extras was that it also failed to be plausible. Would the BBC really make a mainstream comedy series with wigs, laughter tracks etc that contained a sequence which ended with a character singing the words "covered in shit"? Oh, and would a series still part way through its first run be eligible for a BAFTA at that year's awards?

But the question is do such things really matter? Should the viewer just simply "go with it" and judge Extras or Torchwood on their respective merits as drama and comedy? I sense there is a school of thought out there that would support this view and would basically categorize those viewers who can't get past such inaccuracies as stick-in-the-muds. Well, maybe we are, but there are real problems with these breaches of reality - to whit: a ) they pull you out of the fiction (it's quite difficult to care about Gwen arsing around with the alien projector thing when you're too busy moaning about the fact she would never have been able to take it home in the "real" world); and b ) they feel like expediencies to allow the writer to create a situation that couldn't be constructed in a more elegant manner.

Now of course Torchwood is essentially a telefantasy series, so aren't we being wilfully nit picky to complain about the obvious lack of an office cleaner, while happily accepting the notion of an invisible lift? That's not the issue though, the problem with Torchwood is that it doesn't seem to possess a stable sense of internal reality. We can swallow the fact that Ian Beale has had umpteen wives and Albert Square has the highest murder rate in the country, but that's because we know EastEnders' relationship with reality is consistent. The programme is not very "real" but, crucially, the degree of its not "realness" remains the same from episode to episode, scene to scene (let's call it reality + 10 per cent).

On the other hand, at points Torchwood seems very much like our world, with (almost) the same laws of pointless bureaucracy and everyday drudgery applying. But then moments later, just when you think you've got a hang of which particular adjunct from the real world the programme is occupying, it does something silly like have the other members of the Torchwood team sit around laughing and gawping while one of their number has been lured into a cell by a dangerous sex-mad alien.

This is a legitimate gripe, I think, but I sense it's one that's being dismissed by those who think we should just jump on and enjoy the ride. Well I would like to, but not until I know who pays Torchwood's salaries, and whether or not they have to file a tax return each year.

# posted by Jack Kibble-White : 11:06 PM

I think that's pretty spot-on. The reason I'm finding it somewhat disappointing is because my suspension of disbelief is constantly being shattered by ill-thought out scenarios. I can readily accept the fact that there's a rift in space & time above Cardiff through which aliens and extraterrestrial artefacts fall, that Jack cannot die, and that there's a top-secret HQ hidden beneath the streets. What I can't really accept is that there're only 5 people working there, no support staff, seemingly no contact with the other Torchwood sections and that it's chock- full of high tech detection equipment but couldn't detect a Cyber-conversion system in the basement etc. Add the silly contrivances like the invisible lift[1] and the pteradactly, which come off as someones idea of things that sounded cool on paper but which don't really work in practice, and it starts to come apart at the seams somewhat.

I really want to like Torchwood but can't help but feel that it's being badly let down by some amateurish, Scooby Doo style, plotting.

Still, we are only 4 episodes in, so plenty of time for it to improve, and as such I'll reserve judgement.

[1]I wonder what the Health & Safety Executive would have to say about it? Surely it needs some sort of railing.

[pretentious_helvetica]

Aye, he was pretty damn funny on it. In fact, last night's Jonathan Ross was probably the best one I've seen in a good long while.

Agreed - lucky enough to catch the repeat tonight.