Doctor Who

[JPickford (retired mod)]

I don't even understand what any of you are on about. It's just a trailer introducing the show. What's wrong with describing what Torchwood is or who the characters are?

[Hello Goaty ♥]

Why is it being shown on BBC3 and on a Sunday night?

hmmm?

[CraigO]

I don't even understand what any of you are on about. It's just a trailer introducing the show. What's wrong with describing what Torchwood is or who the characters are?

I think the concern is that if that scene from the trailer makes it into the first episode, then it's an example of lazy writing.

[Eighthours]

I don't even understand what any of you are on about. It's just a trailer introducing the show. What's wrong with describing what Torchwood is or who the characters are?

If the scene plays out as it does in the trailer, then it's exceptionally lazy and expository.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

If the scene plays out as it does in the trailer, then it's excpetionally lazy and expository.

What's lazy about it? Genuine question - I'm struggling to understand what's being said.

[cassidy]

Ianto Jones - the finest martial artist Pontypridd has to offer."

If I had sigs on, be safe n the knowledge this would be my new one. 9/10 So Angry

I heard he's a master in the art of the broken bottle

[CraigO]

What's lazy about it? Genuine question - I'm struggling to understand what's being said.

It's a formulaic 'first episode' conceit, or at least it is in any show that operates around a 'team' of people. You take either a guest star or a regular who is new to all the other characters - in this case, I would guess, Gwen (who in her day to day police officer routine, will become caught up with Torchwood) - and then you introduce the other characters to her/him via a roll call, usually accompanied by a short description of what their respective skills or personality traits are.

It's lazy because it's been done, a lot, and because it's a very obvious way to get the introductions out of the way.

[Eighthours]

What's lazy about it? Genuine question - I'm struggling to understand what's being said.

Well, the best way to establish character is by somebody's actions. So dialogue like introducing the new team member to... say... (plucks name out of the air) Reg, and then after he's out of earshot, saying to the new person, "He had a drinks problem but I think he's over it now," is far lazier than actually showing this Reg guy having a battle with himself over whether or not to drink from the whiskey bottle in his bedroom.

Character is all about what they do. Hitting the audience over the head and actually telling them straight up in dialogue who the characters are and what they're all about is not only incredibly lazy, but is also pisspoor dramatically.

How many times have you seen this scenario on British telly?

"So how long has it been?"

"Oooh. About... three years?"

"So, how's-the-new-wife-and-kids-and-are-you-still-grieving-over-our-son's-death-I'm-really-sorry-that-we-broke-up-over-it"...

Watch out for this stuff, it's all over the place in telly drama.

[cassidy]

It's lazy because it's been done, a lot, and because it's a very obvious way to get the introductions out of the way.

See to me, its an obvious way of doings granted, but for a brand new show and Episode 1, it needs to be done IMO. Or would you prefer, "This is Jack, we aint telling you anything about him or Torchwood work it out for yourself".

Its probably going to be a few lines of dialogue introducing each character and isnt going to upset me in anyway to be honest. I'm not expecting lines like eighthours said. Unless its

"This is Jack, watch your back he'll do anything in any hole"

Although to do it through the drama of the episode would work better as eighthours states. Still it'll help people understand the casts different roles in Torchwood.

[Mogster]

Firefly probably did it best but again in a slightly conceited way. I'm actually struggling to think of a way it can be done and not be obvious? Can anyone think of any show that manages said introductions to the characters but not done obviously?

Interestingly, in the US it was the second episode, The Train Job that acted as the pilot. While not the best episode for obvious reasons, it did a great job of introducing each character to the viewers naturally in spite of having to follow on from the first episode in terms of continuity.

[CraigO]

See to me, its an obvious way of doings granted, but for a brand new show and Episode 1, it needs to be done IMO. Or would you prefer, "This is Jack, we aint telling you anything about him or Torchwood work it out for yourself".

Its probably going to be a few lines of dialogue introducing each character and isnt going to upset me in anyway to be honest. I'm not expecting lines like eighthours said. Unless its

"This is Jack, watch your back he'll do anything in any hole"

Although to do it through the drama of the episode would work better as eighthours states. Still it'll help people understand the casts different roles in Torchwood.

Fair enough, it wouldn't put me off, as such. It's just one of those moments of obvious exposition that you can tell are as much for the viewers' benefit as for the new character. Like you say, it's tried and tested, but I think that's the problem. It's the kind of device you can forgive the first few times you see it, but eventually becomes lazy and original.

It can be done in a slightly less obvious manner: just showing the course of a working day can help to remove the need for the viewer to be told who's who, as it should become apparant. I think this is how they did it in Alias, which is a broadly similar set-up.

Regardless of whether or not that scene is in there, I'm not going to judge the entire series on the back of it.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Well, the best way to establish character is by somebody's actions. So dialogue like introducing the new team member to... say... (plucks name out of the air) Reg, and then after he's out of earshot, saying to the new person, "He had a drinks problem but I think he's over it now," is far lazier than actually showing this Reg guy having a battle with himself over whether or not to drink from the whiskey bottle in his bedroom.

Character is all about what they do. Hitting the audience over the head and actually telling them straight up in dialogue who the characters are and what they're all about is not only incredibly lazy, but is also pisspoor dramatically.

How many times have you seen this scenario on British telly?

"So how long has it been?"

"Oooh. About... three years?"

"So, how's-the-new-wife-and-kids-and-are-you-still-grieving-over-our-son's-death-I'm-really-sorry-that-we-broke-up-over-it"...

Watch out for this stuff, it's all over the place in telly drama.

Yeah. I must admit I hate it when characters talk about stuff that happened off screen or in the past. Not so much the exposition side of it just the naff attempts to add depth. Eastenders always does it - especially in the awful '2 hander' episodes.

I'm still unclear whats wrong with exposition. To be honest I wish a lot of novels would have a page explaining the setup at the start rather then making you figure it out.

[Eighthours]

I'm still unclear whats wrong with exposition.

There's nothing intrinsically "wrong" with exposition, it's the way it's done that makes it good or bad.

[Alex W.]

There's nothing intrinsically "wrong" with exposition, it's the way it's done that makes it good or bad.

Yeah, this. There are many different ways of handling exposition.

When it comes to backstory, you can do the flashback scene and actually show events happening, which is interesting but hard work from a production point of view, and it sets you up nicely for continuity errors or retconning in future because you have to be specific in how events unfolded.

Or you can have it come up naturally through the dialogue and action of the currently-unfolding story, revealing how characters behave, their roles in the story, and the nature of the world they occupy. A good example would be Doctor Who - almost all of its characters and backstory unfold as the Doctor goes about puzzling things over and bothering people. Or perhaps Serenity - that introduces the characters and what makes them tick very rapidly.

Or the third way, you can come up with an excuse for a character to give a lecture on the backstory for a while and carefully introduce each key character to the audience in turn. This is a very, very good way to bore your audience.

The presence of cliches in the trailer doesn't bother me so much - after all no show is cliche-free. Cliches are a good way of letting your audience settle in before you upset everything. I'm more worried that they couldn't show us anything but cliches. I mean, with Doctor Who you could edit together something that was at least intruguing. The Torchwood trailer doesn't make me curious about the show, it just informs me that it's some thing with a team which fights aliens.

[sweetdaddyg]

alex w and eighthours seem to be those "We need everything dark and gritty and exactly how we would write it even though we aren't television scriptwriters and will bitch about it on webforums even though the actual writers could give a flying fuck" kind of people I have been mentioning in other threads in the TV section....

[biglime]

Am I the only one HOPING for cheesy dialogue in a series about a handsome bisexual time-traveller heading up a team of alien-hunters?

[cassidy]

Am I the only one HOPING for cheesy dialogue in a series about a handsome bisexual time-traveller heading up a team of alien-hunters?

Nope I'm with ya big guy. In fact I had a look out of the window in work today and saw the building Jack is standing on the top of in the trailer. So, I just had to whip it out then and there and have a wank at the memory of him standing there all butch.

[scottcr]

lol

if it's cheesy and fun, I'll be right up for it.

then again, going from my previous posts in Film/TV, I like Robin Hood and Anchorman, so I must be stupid.

[Alex W.]

alex w and eighthours seem to be those "We need everything dark and gritty and exactly how we would write it even though we aren't television scriptwriters and will bitch about it on webforums even though the actual writers could give a flying fuck" kind of people I have been mentioning in other threads in the TV section....

Actually my problem with the trailer is that it tries to be too dark and gritty and comes off as an unintentional cheesefest. Maybe the series will be an intentional cheesefest but seeing as the Beeb are positioning it as a "dark and adult" show I'm obviously a bit concerned. There's nothing in that trailer that makes me think "Ha, Captain Jack is going to be great in this", just plenty that makes me think "Oh, no, Spooks with space monsters".

Thanks for your completely worthless input, though, you've been a real help. I mean, we really need somebody like you to post in every thread in F&T, pointing out that our opinions don't matter at all to the shows' writers. Nothing says "community thinking" like "Your opinion doesn't actually matter, and I disagree with it anyway". Quick, get over to the Transformers movie thread. And Da Vinci Code! Don't forget Have I Got News For You either! Hey, you could expand it to Discussion, too!

While I'm on the subject of Spooks, did anyone see the start of tonight's episode?

"Are you sure the public will go with this?"

"We made them follow a war they didn't want."

"One million of them protested against it though."

"Yes, and what difference did it make?"

I was honestly terribly dissapointed when it wasn't suffixed with "BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! MWHAHAHAH! THOSE PUNY FOOLS!"

[cassidy]

Actually my problem with the trailer is that it tries to be too dark and gritty and comes off as an unintentional cheesefest. Maybe the series will be an intentional cheesefest but seeing as the Beeb are positioning it as a "dark and adult" show I'm obviously a bit concerned. There's nothing in that trailer that makes me think "Ha, Captain Jack is going to be great in this", just plenty that makes me think "Oh, no, Spooks with space monsters".

Thanks for your completely worthless input, though, you've been a real help. I mean, we really need somebody like you to post in every thread in F&T, pointing out that our opinions don't matter at all to the shows' writers. Nothing says "community thinking" like "Your opinion doesn't actually matter, and I disagree with it anyway". Quick, get over to the Transformers movie thread. And Da Vinci Code! Don't forget Have I Got News For You either! Hey, you could expand it to Discussion, too!

While I'm on the subject of Spooks, did anyone see the start of tonight's episode?

"Are you sure the public will go with this?"

"We made them follow a war they didn't want."

"One million of them protested against it though."

"Yes, and what difference did it make?"

I was honestly terribly dissapointed when it wasn't suffixed with "BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! MWHAHAHAH! THOSE PUNY FOOLS!"

Alex he doesnt mean it. He consistently trys to wind people up with the dark and gritty line fella. Tried it on me once. Oh the fun we had that day. I'm still getting free drinks off of it.

[Alex W.]

I'm not actually that wound up about him, it's just that he reminded me of Spooks. God I hate that show.

[Mogster]

I was honestly terribly dissapointed when it wasn't suffixed with "BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! MWHAHAHAH! THOSE PUNY FOOLS!"

I watched the second part this week on BBC3, and the payoff is both unnexpected and pretty ace. The next episode looks ace too...

Christian terrorists declaring "war" on Islam? Bring it on!

I like Spooks. B)

[Eighthours]

Since RTD himself has said it's meant to be a dark show, we would have a point regardless of profession (which, by the way, you don't have a clue about in my case at least), but that's not the point I was making. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that bad writing is bad writing. It has nothing to do with how dark or light the show is, that roll call in the trailer is just lazy, assuming that the way it seems to be handled is how it ends up in the show itself.

How the hell did this simple and obvious point turn into such a debate with such an unnecessarily nasty reply?

Oh, and it's "couldn't give a flying fuck", by the way.

[cassidy]

Since RTD himself has said it's meant to be a dark show, we would have a point regardless of profession (which, by the way, you don't have a clue about in my case at least), but that's not the point I was making. You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that bad writing is bad writing. It has nothing to do with how dark or light the show is, that roll call in the trailer is just lazy, assuming that the way it seems to be handled is how it ends up in the show itself.

How the hell did this simple and obvious point turn into such a debate with such an unnecessarily nasty reply?

Oh, and it's "couldn't give a flying fuck", by the way.

Same as I told Alex its an attempt to wind you up. Does it all the time. Tried it on me as well and I had one of my proudest forum moments as everyone who contributes to this thread regularly rallyed round and defended me. Near warmed me heart it did

Turns out a forum member Obscure In Joke has won tickets to the Press premiere of Torchwood tomorrow.

I'm hoping he posts a mini review to the thread.

[sweetdaddyg]

Quick, get over to the Transformers movie thread. And Da Vinci Code! Don't forget Have I Got News For You either! Hey, you could expand it to Discussion, too!

Been there done that.

and I have been there done that and couldnt give a flying fuck.

Still think torchwood will be good. But honestly, feel free to bitch about both it and me on a webforum. I will just get on with enjoying the show. Cheers.

[El Pibe]

So someone saying 'He had a drink problem...well...I say had...'

is worse than ANOTHER scene from a TV or film featuring someone picking up, putting down, picking up, putting down a whiskey bottle? Or...waking up, picking up an empty whiskey bottle and saying 'jeeeeez'.

[sweetdaddyg]

and on the note about it being poor writing to introduce the team to gewn......how many places have you walked into a room and not been introduced to everyone there. Its manners. Its sensical too to have the main characters in a brand new show introduced in some form or another, if they can manage to do it in one scene in a single piece of dialogue and get it of the way quickly and painlessly all the better.

[Alex W.]

Again, I'm not worried that the trailer's got some cliches in it. I'm worried that it's all cliches. It's like advertising a comedy show with an advert full of unfunny jokes. It's perfectly possible that the show will have some funny jokes in it, but it sets off alarm bells.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Still no clue what the problem is.

[cassidy]

Managed to chat to someone who's seen the first 3 eps of Torchwood tonight and a few unfinished edits(perks of being a Who fan in Cardiff I guess). Yes he's genuine, yes this is real.

Granted his opinion may be slightly effected by his job on Doctor Who and Torchwood, but I asked him for his honest opinion on what he's seen so far and his exact words were

"best show British Telly has made in years and possibly ever" That line there, pretty much made me even more excited about the show.

However it will divide audiences a lot more than Who does.

I've also now changed my mind about letting my son watch it, well episode 2 anyway as its sounding far too filthy(fucking people to death and not in a off the camera way, he stated its a damn sight ruder and violent than the already mentioned Angel S1 ep) for a 10 yr old. 1st ep isnt supposed to be that rude though only a bit violent but full of fucks and other pretty strong swear words. So it looks like those kids wanting to see it may need the parents to check each episode out first then decide.

I cant believe the BBC are trailing it after CBBC finishes though, its almost as if their asking for the Tabloids to be in uproar