Doctor Who

[mr_greedy]

Unrelated, but Tracy Ann Oberman was on Richard and Judy last night - as herself obviously - she's more Torchwood than Albert Square. That's a good thing

[Boyatsea]

Unrelated, but Tracy Ann Oberman was on Richard and Judy last night - as herself obviously - she's more Torchwood than Albert Square. That's a good thing

You fancy her.

Don't deny it; I do too. Think she'd like a threesome?

[jonathanhoey]

She was foxy.

My other half was testament to that.

Is he bi, then?

[Boyatsea]

[Davros sock drawer]

I suppose it's natural to turn to classic Who once the season finishes, and I've been browsing the Classic Who BBC site loads since Saturday.

Love this clip of Logopolis, the music and general atmosphere is the distillation of my childhood (I was 7 when it was transmitted). I love the Cloister Room of the Tardis that you see Tegan in - hope they open up the Tardis a bit more next series:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/d...nbram=1&bbram=1

Another great clip:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/d...nbram=1&bbram=1

Just watching these...well, I'm sorry RTD (and David Tennant), but the new stuff doesn't come close.

[Boyatsea]

Logopolis actually gets better the more times you watch it, but I think a lot of it is filler. Not on a Destiny of the Daleks level, but considering the real meat doesn't start happening until episode 3, they could have spent more time showing Tegen coming to terms with her new environment.

She just sort of appears, bless her.

[Bad Ambassador]

Just watching these...well, I'm sorry RTD (and David Tennant), but the new stuff doesn't come close.

'Logopolis' and 'The Masque of Mandragora'? Plenty of the new stuff is far better than those two! 'Logopolis' is a bit of a shambles, really. Kind of enjoyable in a weird way but so horribly dated. Certainly a dull storyline. Quite why they decided to base Tom's last story around maths is beyond me. But I suppose that was part of the move towards 'real science' era of the show in the early 80s, which was obviously a mistake.

Now, if we're talking stuff like 'Inferno' or 'City of Death', then the new/classic series divide narrows down considerably...

[Davros sock drawer]

I just love the sense of mystery, that weird figure on the bridge (who we later find out is a sort of between-regenerations Doctor - "He was the Doctor all along!"), and Adric's assumption that it's the Master. It has a really sombre atmosphere, almost like the Watcher is saying "Come in Doctor number 4, your time is up". Gives me shivers.

And that lovely descending shot to the prone Doctor in episode four, and all his companions repeating "Doctor?", followed by "It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for", the watcher merging with The Doctor, and who's this? Peter Davidson sits up smiling, and a whole new era begins.

It's quite special to me that story, even if the actual plot is rather tedious. Greater than the sum of its parts shall we say.

'Logopolis' and 'The Masque of Mandragora'? Plenty of the new stuff is far better than those two!

I agree in terms of plot, but in terms of tone, and the actor playing the Doctor? No, never.

Me, aged 7, completely entranced:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/d...nbram=1&bbram=1

[toonfool]

I suppose it's natural to turn to classic Who once the season finishes...

And on that note:

Who wants to lend me an old Who DVD?

[Boyatsea]

I just love the sense of mystery, that weird figure on the bridge (who we later find out is a sort of between-regenerations Doctor - "He was the Doctor all along!"), and Adric's assumption that it's the Master. It has a really sombre atmosphere, almost like the Watcher is saying "Come in Doctor number 4, your time is up". Gives me shivers.

And that lovely descending shot to the prone Doctor in episode four, and all his companions repeating "Doctor?", followed by "It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for", the watcher merging with The Doctor, and who's this? Peter Davidson sits up smiling, and a whole new era begins.

It's quite special to me that story, even if the actual plot is rather tedious. Greater than the sum of its parts shall we say.

The regeneration is very very very very special. Even more special when replayed at the beginning of Castrovalva, going into the sting.

I don't think Tom is the best in Logopolis, mind. It's perhaps fitting, but he just seems very tired and bored, and as a result it becomes quite hard to take his parts seriously.

[Bad Ambassador]

I agree in terms of plot, but in terms of tone, and the actor playing the Doctor? No, never.

Maybe - although I'd argue that Eccles and Tennant are better actors than Tom. But yes, he 'was' the Doctor in a way nobody else was before, or ever will be again.

'Logopolis' has a special place in my heart too for obvious reasons, but watching it makes me realise just how much the show lost its way in that season, and why relatively few people were watching by that time.

I don't think Tom is the best in Logopolis, mind. It's perhaps fitting, but he just seems very tired and bored, and as a result it becomes quite hard to take his parts seriously.

He looks bored throughout the whole of season 18 - he was ill for a good chunk of it, and quite gaunt too. Plus, after the sheer fun of the previous few years the bizarre turn to boring science-based stories must've been a big disappointment to him. And quite right too.

[Davros sock drawer]

Tired? I'm not sure, I think Tom is pretty good in his final season. He seemed to be allowed to take the piss in the previous two seasons (Key to Time and Douglas Adams' Silly Season), and the serious tone of the last few series suited him, IMO.

Sorry, another clip. Stop me if I'm boring you, but I'm enjoying remembering a time when Dr Who was genuinely creepy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/d...nbram=1&bbram=1

I had nightmares about Spikey Doctor.

[Boyatsea]

He looks bored throughout the whole of season 18 - he was ill for a good chunk of it, and quite gaunt too. Plus, after the sheer fun of the previous few years the bizarre turn to boring science-based stories must've been a big disappointment to him. And quite right too.

Yeah. Unlike a lot of fans, I do think JNT made some good changes to the show, but it did become much too dry. Much too serious.

[Bad Ambassador]

Sorry, another clip. Stop me if I'm boring you, but I'm enjoying remembering a time when Dr Who was genuinely creepy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/d...nbram=1&bbram=1

I had nightmares about Spiky Doctor.

Thing is, you're saying that like it isn't creepy any more - but you're just older now so it's not realistic to expect the modern show to scare you. I thought the bit where Peri turns into a bird in 'Vengeance on Varos' was creepy when I was kid. It looks rubbish now, of course.

I know people who were really creeped out by the gas mask kid from last year. So it still works.

Yeah. Unlike a lot of fans, I do think JNT made some good changes to the show

Oh I do too - it did need reigning in somewhat, but not to the extremes that happened in season 18. It became a bit of a snooze, and viewers deserted it in droves.

Thankfully things were much more balanced for Peter Davison's first year. Season 19 is one of my favourites of all 28 so far, in fact.

[Boyatsea]

Thing is, you're saying that like it isn't creepy any more - but you're just older now so it's not realistic to expect the modern show to scare you. I thought the bit where Peri turns into a bird in 'Vengeance on Varos' was creepy when I was kid. It looks rubbish now, of course.

I know people who were really creeped out by the gas mask kid from last year. So it still works.

Oh I do too - it did need reigning in somewhat, but not to the extremes that happened in season 18. It became a bit of a snooze, and viewers deserted it in droves.

Thankfully things were much more balanced for Peter Davison's first year. Season 19 is one of my favourites of all 28 so far, in fact.

EARTHSHOCK.

[Davros sock drawer]

I know people who were really creeped out by the gas mask kid from last year. So it still works.

Oh, I agree, when it's at its best the new Who works in exactly the same way. And some of the worst excesses of old Who have been reigned in. In fact I'm not trying to criticise the new series per se, just saying that in terms of tone it hasn't quite reached my favourite Who episodes. The Empty Child and TGitF are exceptions which remind me of classic Who. I enjoy the other episodes on a completely different level, and that's not to their detriment. I'm not expecting it to make me feel like I did in the late 70's, although sometimes it does, and I couldn't really ask for more.

But there's something special about scenes like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/d...nbram=1&bbram=1

Which I'm not sure RTD will ever manage to top for sheer atmosphere.

[cassidy]

DSD its just such a vivid memory from my childhood, it's got that extra nostalgia essence to it Logopolis has. Its so strong a feeling it means I can practically smell those saturday nights.

Same goes If I ever pick up a yellowing Target or WH Allen Hardback. Terror of the Autons in particular, christ that squid cover terrified me when I were a kid.

Logopolis and the regeneration are what Doctor Who is to my inner 5 yr old. Thing is as I got older and older I just found out it's so much more. The five faces of Doctor Who the same yr as Castrovalva(IIRC) were invaluable too. I had no real concept of the earlier Doctors until I saw that, I think my first Target purchase was made the same yr.

[Davros sock drawer]

The five faces of Doctor Who the same yr as Castrovalva(IIRC) were invaluable too. I had no real concept of the earlier Doctors until I saw that, I think my first Target purchase was made the same yr.

Oh yes, BBC2, 6pm or something. I seem to remember it was winter, and I watched it after coming back from Cubs. Carnival of Monsters, The Dominators....?

[Bad Ambassador]

Which I'm not sure RTD will ever manage to top for sheer atmosphere.

For people who watched it at the time, maybe. But show that scene to someone today and chances are they'd think it had about as much atmosphere as the average episode of Neighbours, and say that it doesn't come close to the atmopshere of 'Doomsday'. It's all down to emotional attachment to a specific period of the show, I suppose.

[Davros sock drawer]

For people who watched it at the time, maybe. But show that scene to someone today and chances are they'd think it had about as much atmosphere as the average episode of Neighbours, and say that it doesn't come close to the atmopshere of 'Doomsday'. It's all down to emotional attachment to a specific period of the show, I suppose.

You sound quite "down" on Old Who there Bad Ambassador. The whole reason for my mentioning these scenes now is that I had a quick look and thought "Fucking hell, this is still fantastic stuff!". Please don't tell me I'm blinded by my nostalgia, as it really isn't just that.

Don't forget, I really do love the new stuff. But for some reason, it lacks the "special" feel of the best classic episodes, save for one or two examples.

[cassidy]

You sound quite "down" on Old Who there Bad Ambassador. The whole reason for my mentioning these scenes now is that I had a quick look and thought "Fucking hell, this is still fantastic stuff!". Please don't tell me I'm blinded by my nostalgia, as it really isn't just that.

Don't forget, I really do love the new stuff. But for some reason, it lacks the "special" feel of the best classic episodes, save for one or two examples.

Its not being blinded by nostalgia, it does however add to its subjective merit IMO

Other than the whole of Bakers last season and Davisons first 2 seasons, a good example for me is McCoy's speech at the end of Survival, at the time it was just the last lines of a good story, 16 yrs of no Who and 70 books featuring a rather amazing 7th Doctor later, the end of Survival makes me well up on occasion.

[Davros sock drawer]

For a bit of balance, this old clip shows just how well the Daleks have been updated. I can almost imagine Tennant delivering Troughton's lines here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/d...nbram=1&bbram=1

Actually, maybe not Tennant. He wouldn't be quite so scared.

[Bad Ambassador]

You sound quite "down" on Old Who there Bad Ambassador.

God no, not at all. I love every second of it (well, with a few exceptions). But I do reckon that the majority of the modern TV audience would think plenty of old Doctor Who, especially the 80s stuff, is naff. We don't, because it means something to us and we're more open to the relatively primitive production methods of the time - but there's got to be an element of nostalgia tinting our views, and there's nothing wrong with that. Having that kind of attachment to a TV programme is a good thing.

[Davros sock drawer]

The audience didn't mind it at the time. I think we sometimes belittle the old stuff out of embarrasment at some of the production values. But some of the actual content is better than what we're being served now, nostalgia or no nostalgia.

[JBD]

Logopolis actually gets better the more times you watch it, but I think a lot of it is filler. Not on a Destiny of the Daleks level, but considering the real meat doesn't start happening until episode 3.

I remember the scene where theres a tardis inside a tardis and the lighting inside each one gets dimmer. That really stuck with me as a child for some reason, although i've no idea what that had to do with the plot.

On another note, I just watched Revelation of the daleks and Colin Baker is...pretty good. It's the first time I've seen any of his stuff since the original transmission, and I remember thinking he was completely shit at the time. Some of his little nuances are really nice; when he gets pissed off with Peri for breaking his watch for instance, and the little bit at the end when he 'tries' to shake hands with Davros is amazing. The guy had good comic timing. They should have played that up rather than the 'abrasive arsehole' angle they chose.

Edit: watched City of Death as well this week (i've been buying myself presents on amazon). What a great companion Lalla Ward is, really good chemistry with Baker (unsuprising given their offscreen romance i suppose).

[Boyatsea]

I remember the scene where theres a tardis inside a tardis and the lighting inside each one gets dimmer. That really stuck with me as a child for some reason, although i've no idea what that had to do with the plot.

On another note, I just watched Revelation of the daleks and Colin Baker is...pretty good. It's the first time I've seen any of his stuff since the original transmission, and I remember thinking he was completely shit at the time. Some of his little nuances are really nice; when he gets pissed off with Peri for breaking his watch for instance, and the little bit at the end when he 'tries' to shake hands with Davros is amazing. The guy had good comic timing. They should have played that up rather than the 'abrasive arsehole' angle they chose.

I love Colin. I think he played the part as best he could.

Revelation suffers a little, though. Not because of him, but because of...

[JBD]

I love Colin. I think he played the part as best he could.

Revelation suffers a little, though. Not because of him, but because of...

Err...yeah. I cannot disagree.

[Bad Ambassador]

The audience didn't mind it at the time. I think we sometimes belittle the old stuff out of embarrasment at some of the production values. But some of the actual content is better than what we're being served now, nostalgia or no nostalgia.

I'm not embarrassed about the production values, I couldn't care less, I love it. I'm just saying I can understand how a modern TV viewer might look at it and that they'd judge it on that, shallow though that may be. I also think that what we're getting now is just 'different' to back then, not necessarily better or worse.

I do think that the early 80s Baker period of Who is one of its weakest, though, it's dated so terribly. I'm watching 'Inferno' at the moment and it still looks really quite impressive - it has very little reliance on special effects and a lot of reliance on good actors and dialogue.

[Bluejam]

On another note, I just watched Revelation of the daleks and Colin Baker is...pretty good. It's the first time I've seen any of his stuff since the original transmission, and I remember thinking he was completely shit at the time. Some of his little nuances are really nice; when he gets pissed off with Peri for breaking his watch for instance, and the little bit at the end when he 'tries' to shake hands with Davros is amazing. The guy had good comic timing. They should have played that up rather than the 'abrasive arsehole' angle they chose.

I love Revelation. The glass Dalek is one of the original series great moments. Great acting from the guy as well.

[Davros sock drawer]

I do think that the early 80s Baker period of Who is one of its weakest, though, it's dated so terribly.

Really? Warrior's Gate? State of Decay? Keeper of Traken? All classics for me. I like The Leisure Hive too, it's very nicely shot. I think the early use of digital effects has probably dated the visuals, but some of the actual imagery from that season stands up very well (The Doctor Ageing, Meglos, Melkur, The Watcher), as well as the more serious content. Warrior's Gate in particular has a lot of interesting things going on.