Doctor Who

[El Pibe]

That's me completely forgetting about the clamps. Forget what I said.

Though it has to be said that as soon as those things were mentioned in Part One, I knew they'd miraculously become important....

But that's WHY they were mentioned!! It's not miraculous.

[Eighthours]

But that's WHY they were mentioned!!

I know.... but it was like RTD thought after the first draft: "Shit, how do I have the Doctor not get sucked into the void.... him hanging onto the lever isn't really going to work."

PAUSE.

"I know, let's invent some magnetic clamp things and have them onscreen for all of 5 seconds in Part One! Then use them as the solution in Part Two!"

Convenient plot devices FTW!

[Treble]

Also, cos the Doctor and Rose had fewer of those void particles on them. As he explains, the Daleks and Cybermen 'reeked' of the void, whereas he and Rose only had a small amount, hence the greater pull for the cyborgies.

[scottcr]

It's not daft at all.

If, for example, they'd have had to scrap some of the action scenes, like the bridge one, in order for the Dr to rabbit on about why the TARDIS wouldn't fall into the void...it would be a shame.

I'd be interested to know what 45 minute shows have no plotholes whatsoever, other than Dr Who, of course

there was an example of this in action during the episode - Doctor starts explaining parallel universes and stuff to Jackie and she tells him to shut up.

Some of you on here - did you do the same to Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure? All decent and enjoyable sci-fi falls to bits if you over analyse it (imho)... if it doesn't, that's because it's so worried about not contradicting itself that it stops becoming fun - See the Star Trek franchise.

[Graham S]

I've caught up with over six weeks of Who thread now. Blimey, lots of arguments. Such massive divisions of opinion on just about everything, with people leaping between sides from episode to episode. S2 was a bit of a curate's egg. The high points (Fireplace, Hell, Canary Wharf) were more than enough to forget the bad bits for me.

I'm shocked so many people didn't like the Hell episodes. Maybe people are too distracted by the Red Dwarf sets and BBC actors to see the good stuff? People are obsessed with production values these days. What a shame. (and some of the production values were excellent: I thought the devil looked great, for instance). God knows what these kids today would have thought of old Who. Glad to see the old-timers mostly loved it.

Despite being the first person to fulminate (ages ago) about Trisha/Windsor/Acorah, that bit in Army of Ghosts really worked for me.

And now that Rose, Jackie and Pete are forever imprisoned in PeteWorld, I'd just like to say I liked the London stories (bizarro-Cybermen aside), and I liked seeing a lot of the Tylers. Their time to leave our universe forever had come, but they added such a lot to new Who, and I think they deserve some credit for the show's success. It will be interesting to see what they do without them.

I loved the way 1 Doctor > 4 Daleks > 5,000,000 cybermen. We always knew it to be true.

Incidentally, I work in Canary Wharf and can't quite work out where the shot was taken from in this episode. I really want to find out I work in Torchwood Tower.

While I can't remember the shot you mean, Torchwood Tower = One Canada Square, surely? HSBC and Citigroup are just about high enough to contain the rift, but they're not iconic enough to do so, and Canada Square was built first. Torchwood extends throughout the area: in the second episode the Daleks ascend from Reuters Plaza. Now you know what those mysterious corridors in the mall that only "cleaning staff" go into are for.

Hang on. Loads of people didn't like the finale either. I find that really surprising, like you've all been sent to some reprocessing facility to be turned into CyberDiscoStus and CyberGoatKeepers. Aah well.

The new show does try and tug at the old heart strings doesn't it? Be interesting to see where this content comes from if the Tylers aren't around...

Does anyone remember blubbing at the old series?

Silent credits roll over a broken gold badge for mathematical excellence. Well, I cried, you heartless bastards.

Tough one. I suspect if he thought about it for, say, an hour, he'd think of a way.

[El Pibe]

I know.... but it was like RTD thought after the first draft: "Shit, how do I have the Doctor not get sucked into the void.... him hanging onto the lever isn't really going to work."

PAUSE.

"I know, let's invent some magnetic clamp things and have them onscreen for all of 5 seconds in Part One! Then use them as the solution in Part Two!"

Convenient plot devices FTW!

I think you're joking?

But anyway...this happens in almost every game, film and TV programme! Like, for example, in James Bond when Q gives him some new gadgets and we all know that these will then be used to get Bond out of trouble at some point.

I think criticising that is a bit odd.

[Eighthours]

I think criticising that is a bit odd.

Sorry, it's just that I'm knee-deep in writing a genre series myself, and am seriously trying to avoid this stuff.

[El Pibe]

Sorry, it's just that I'm knee-deep in writing a genre series myself, and am seriously trying to avoid this stuff.

Is it called 'Prof. What' ?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

I know.... but it was like RTD thought after the first draft: "Shit, how do I have the Doctor not get sucked into the void.... him hanging onto the lever isn't really going to work."

PAUSE.

"I know, let's invent some magnetic clamp things and have them onscreen for all of 5 seconds in Part One! Then use them as the solution in Part Two!"

Convenient plot devices FTW!

Yes, the fool. He should try one of those Deus Ex Machina doofers instead. People love those.

[Eighthours]

Is it called 'Prof. What' ?

No, it's called 'GP When'.

Yes, the fool. He should try one of those Deus Ex Machina doofers instead. People love those.

One might say that the solution to a DEM is not the blink-and-you'll-miss-it, get-out-of-jail-free plot device. But I take the point. At least it wasn't technobabble.

[kensei]

That's entirely the point. As it stands, we don't know how the Tardis avoided falling into the void. It is a hole in the plot.

Internal logic of the plot says everything exposed to the void will fall back into it. The Tardis was exposed to the void. The Tardis did not fall back into it.

That's a contradiction. The fact that it requires an external explanation (it was sent forward in time one hour) is what makes it a plot hole.

But the TARDIS has been shown within the show to be practically indestructible. It really isn't a big flaw or a big leap considering what we know about it.

[Andsom]

I really can't see why you would be so frustrated by this. These last few pages are a good example of the negative side of message boards where people have to pick everything to pieces, be it games or films, or TV programmes.

Plus, the show is 45 minutes long, if that, and it would be a pretty dull 45 minutes if everything needed to be explained in finite detail.

it's not that that bugs me exactly. It's when you try to discuss stuff, point out things don't make sense and people either a) come up with ridiculous fanwank reasons why they do, or B ) Go "lalalalalala" I'm not listening.

"I know, let's invent some magnetic clamp things and have them onscreen for all of 5 seconds in Part One! Then use them as the solution in Part Two!"

Convenient plot devices FTW!

I thought that was OK. It made sense and didn't seem as contrived as a lot of other Doctor Who plot devices.

[scottcr]

Sorry, it's just that I'm knee-deep in writing a genre series myself, and am seriously trying to avoid this stuff.

why avoid it? Loads of programmes show that it's useful and folks don't mind. It's classic - introduce something early in the programme, use it later to get out of sticky situation.

If you end up trying to make sure absoloutely everything is explained and all wrapped up tight and nice then you'll end up tying yourself in knots...

me - I love spotting the "I bet he'll use that to save the day" items in films and programmes.

[JohnC]

By some peoples logic, the existance of Earth is a plot hole because it hasn't been explicitly explained on screen in that episode.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

it's not that that bugs me exactly. It's when you try to discuss stuff, point out things don't make sense and people either a) come up with ridiculous fanwank reasons why they do, or B .

I could do without people using terms like 'fanwank'. I don't think I've said anything ridiculous and I don't see the need to resort to name calling. It's like the idiots who start accusing anyone who likes Nintendo games of being 'fanboys'.

[scottcr]

isn't it not the case that the tardis doesn't actually really exist in this dimension... it's not actually "bigger in the inside" but when you go through the door, you actually go to another dimension.. so the inside of the tardis doesn't actually move or go anywhere it just opens portals in time... or something like that.

[Boyatsea]

RTD said that the cybermen were sucked back through the fault lines into the void...

hmm... but - the fault lines had specific locations (like along the side of the pool at the Taj Mahal ) - what about the ones that had wandered away from those locations - what happened to them?

They got sucked back into the nearest fault line, natch.

The final rating for 'Army of Ghosts' was 8.19 million...

1 WORLD CUP 2006: ENG V POR (SAT 1600) BBC1 16.21

2 WORLD CUP 2006: POST-MATCH (SAT 1843) BBC1 13.78

3 WORLD CUP 06 - POST MATCH (FRI 1832) ITV1 9.58

4 CORONATION STREET (SUN 1955) ITV1 9.03

5 WORLD CUP 06 (TUE 1959) ITV1 9.02

6 CORONATION STREET (MON 1933) ITV1 9.00

7 DOCTOR WHO (SAT 1900) BBC1 8.19

8 CORONATION STREET (WED 1929) ITV1 7.84

9 EASTENDERS (TUE 1930) BBC1 7.82

10 WORLD CUP 2006: SWI V UKR (MON 2000) BBC1 7.42

More than EastEnders. Cripes.

[Graham S]

Heavens above. 7.42 million people watched

10 WORLD CUP 2006: SWI V UKR (MON 2000) BBC1 7.42.

I hoped it was a private torment reserved only for me.

[Space Renegade Ulala]

there was an example of this in action during the episode - Doctor starts explaining parallel universes and stuff to Jackie and she tells him to shut up.

Some of you on here - did you do the same to Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure? All decent and enjoyable sci-fi falls to bits if you over analyse it (imho)... if it doesn't, that's because it's so worried about not contradicting itself that it stops becoming fun - See the Star Trek franchise.

"Dude! After all this is done, lets go back in time, steal your dad's keys before he loses them and put them....HERE!"

"Excellent!"

*air guitar*

Bill & Ted have the best use of time travel ever.

[Jumble Jumble]

I could do without people using terms like 'fanwank'. I don't think I've said anything ridiculous and I don't see the need to resort to name calling. It's like the idiots who start accusing anyone who likes Nintendo games of being 'fanboys'.

There's really nothing intentionally offensive about the term "fanwank", it just means the way fans "please themselves" by inventing little side-stories to explain parts of the story away. I've always thought of it as an affectionate term for that process.

isn't it not the case that the tardis doesn't actually really exist in this dimension... it's not actually "bigger in the inside" but when you go through the door, you actually go to another dimension.. so the inside of the tardis doesn't actually move or go anywhere it just opens portals in time... or something like that.

I've often explained it to myself using the "the door of the tardis is a portal" explanation, but the Doctor himself explains it in, er, Robots Of Death, I think.

Assistant: "That's stupid!"

Doctor: "That's transdimensional engineering."

[Darren]

Seven-year-old-daughter tried the old "knock knock - who's there - doctor" routine on me tonight.

The old classics are alive and well in our primary school playgrounds!

[Harlen Quinn]

Planet of the Spiders is the last Pertwee Story. The Green Death is the maggots one, and is from the season before that.

This is a useful resource:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/

Thanks for that but I can't help but think if I'd used that resource my post would've been pointless. I was simply highlighting that I'd got quite a decent recall of old Who considering I was [a] really quite young and it was 30 odd years ago. I wanted to engage the forum into the nostalgia of it all and I knew several know alls would be along to correct me. Your link does certainly have validity for those that were unaware of it and now, after revelling in the nostalgia of trying to recall it from the dusty memory banks, I'll probably pop on over and have a look.

I wonder if nostalgia is linked to the act of trying to recall half remembered good things from the past rather than simply remembering good things? What I mean is the effort of trying to recall these half remembered things is all part of the fun and the good feelings. No, I'm not that bothered about a link to its truest definition, I rather like mine.

[Jack]

me - I love spotting the "I bet he'll use that to save the day" items in films and programmes.

I thought they were going to use the particle rifle that Yvonne showed off to them.

[Boyatsea]

I miss Yvonne.

She was friggin ace.

[Davros sock drawer]

Thanks for that but I can't help but think if I'd used that resource my post would've been pointless. I was simply highlighting that I'd got quite a decent recall of old Who considering I was [a] really quite young and it was 30 odd years ago.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to negate your nostalgic remembrances, merely providing further reading.

The BBC site is good like that, it has a section where it prompts you with the most popular childhood memories, eg "Did it have Giant Maggots in it?". Frightening how many of our childhoods were affected by similar images.

[SeanR]

I miss Yvonne.

She was friggin ace.

Who's Yvonne?

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Who's Yvonne?

I think's the Boss of Torchwood woman. Her out of Eastenders and Big Train.

[Lorfarius]

I think's the Boss of Torchwood woman. Her out of Eastenders and Big Train.

I dont know why but I thought she was extremely attractive in those boots. I like that woman.

[Bad Ambassador]

I thought you'd like that.

It got an 'AI' of 89, too.

[Boyatsea]

I dont know why but I thought she was extremely attractive in those boots. I like that woman.

She was foxy.

My other half was testament to that.

I thought you'd like that.

It got an 'AI' of 89, too.

Impressive.

Up the dials.