Doctor Who

[cassidy]

Just watched it. Didnt shed a tear but found it rather wonderful and a satisfying Part 2 as well.

5/5

Loved the Genesis ark spewing the millions of daleks everywhere.

Catherne bloody Tate didnt bother me as much as some it seems.

[scottcr]

dunno - for me, some folks here are really over analysing this... it's really entertaining telly and I look forward to seeing it every week. I'm sad now because there's no more Who until Christmas.

I loved that finale - no one came close to guessing what the Genesis Ark was - I was pretty gobsmacked when it opened.

Great stuff.

[Harlen Quinn]

dunno - for me, some folks here are really over analysing this... it's really entertaining telly and I look forward to seeing it every week. I'm sad now because there's no more Who until Christmas.

I loved that finale - no one came close to guessing what the Genesis Ark was - I was pretty gobsmacked when it opened.

Great stuff.

I'm with you on the genesis ark, even when they told us it was timelord tech. How clever, they built a prison ship barely big enough on the outside to provide an opening for a single dalek to enter into it, brilliant.

It's such a pity we'll never see the timewar, I imagine stars/planets/galaxies exploding.

How fearsome must timelord tech truly be, after seeing how ferociously deadly the daleks are how in hell did the timelords compel millions of daleks to enter a prison ship in single file?

[cassidy]

How fearsome must timelord tech truly be, after seeing how ferociously deadly the daleks are how in hell did the timelords compel millions of daleks to enter a prison ship in single file?

i believe they used the "bit of lippy and eyeshadow dalek" to tempt them in. With a wolf whistle and chuck jones eyes, the daleks marched to their incarceration

[scottcr]

strange that the doctor didn't know about the prison - since he obviously played a big role in the time war. Still a great idea.

One thing that these two series have demonstrated is that the daleks are not to be f$%ked with and, in decent numbers, are pretty much invincible. It takes epic events to defeat them...

Interesting that the doctor mentioned Skaro this ep - starts to introduce the origins of the Daleks, we might get to see more of that.

[biglime]

I do think some people take it a bit far, however, assuming that they have some kind of pedigree.

In a thread like this, everyone's a writer. Some of them have even been on TV, you know. Not sure they attracted...

...7.7 million...

...though.

It's nice to see that when you've done a bit of work on telly you can't have an opinion about anything anymore, without a bitter done-nothing cunt having silly little pops at you.

What a fucking forum this is sometimes.

"But you're overlooking the fact that it was really, really poorly written. That's got nothing to do with the episode's context or the fact you consider it different.

My point is, the actual script, plot and dialogue of the last 25 minutes were just really poor."

ANALYSIS COMPLETE!

HAS NO ACTUAL WRITING EXPERIENCE!

OPINION PERMITTED!

[Andsom]

Another shitty contrived bad guy disposal there then. The last scene on the beach was absolutely fantastic though. Really cannot praise that enough.

They should have ended before Catherine Tate made her appearance and pretty much RUINED the moment.

[Treble]

There's loads of things I could say about this series, but I'll distill it down to one point: the funny episodes should be funny and the scary ones scary.

You shouldn't have the Daleks (your epitome of evil) spout one-liners as you'll never look on them with fear again (they're back to be being funny-looking pepper pots now Russell, thanks) and you should never make your funny characters and the episodes they star in so gratuitously nasty in an attempt to be 'adult' themed (I'm looking at you, Love and Monsters)

The tone was ALL WRONG in this series, completely off. I enjoyed it, but it was slip-sliding away from what makes Doctor Who brilliant, in my opinion. Enough trying to stick post-modern slapstick into every situation, RTD (and your hand-selected writing team) because you're spoiling things.

DW can be naff, but it shouldn't be constantly breaking down the fourth wall with winks to the audience. That's not right and not fair.

That is all.

[Eighthours]

The writing in the show goes from very good to very bad on a dime. We got both extremes in last night's episode - the ending with Rose and the Doctor was beautiful, the scene where Chrissie from Eastenders blew away the Cybermen on the stairs was contrived, no-reason-at-all bollocks when you consider what has happened to everyone else who became a Cyberman.

The biggest problem for me, the same as in a number of episodes, was that the Doctor often seemed like a guest star in his own show, miraculously saving the day at the end almost on a whim.

To be fair to RTD though, this writing game is a toughie.

[kensei]

So this starts to happen from the moment that the Doctor returns to France and meets the adult Renet for the first time. Why? Because the scene is far too fast. He meets her, suddenly there's a big kiss, y'know, get the love angle moving quick quick. It just rings false. We don't know the character at all, and then bang. But ok, rescued for the moment by the rabbit out of the hat that is the Doctor realising that she's Madame du Pompadour.

Or, there was some instant chemistry and intrigue. This moved fast, but it had to in a 45 minute episode. The writing and acting was so well done that it didn't in any way shape or form, ring as false. Except in your head.

The Rose and Mickey stuff that follows is nice, and the revelation of the ship using human parts is a good lead-up as to the why of the whole story (Although it is very contrived. Clockwork robots can manage to teleport and time travel, but they need someone's eye to fix an on-board ship's camera, and hearts to pump fluids about. Mm, ok. It's a bit silly and undermines the serious love story angle quite a bit, but whatever).

We did not have the parts. We did not have the parts. WE DID NOT HAVE THE PARTS. How many times did they say it? I was explained perfectly, combined with the broken nature of the computer leading it to do mad things. I was going to say if you absolutely pick at it and pick it anything falls apart, but in this case it's not even true.

How on earth does that undermine th elove story angle anyway?

Rabbit 2. Doctor telepathy to explain the connection between him and Renet. How are we to believe that there's any real connection between them in the story when it just lurches along like this every few minutes? It's just exposition exposition exposition all the way "you are in my mind, oh how lonely you must have been as a boy" blah blah blah. Sentimental and hamfisted.

Or, the telepathy is already established in Who continuity, and the totally unexpected reaction (for the Doctor) of someone pushing back builds on the chemistry established in the previous scene. As people have fallen in love over a single look, this not only believable, but we''ve now established an even deeper relationship between the wo as they have been in each other's minds. The plot has done a whole lot of work in very little time. Personally, I'm in awe of how they managed to develop a believable connection in so little time.

This isn't a trick that could be repeated, but it works very well here.

Roll on to ham-sentimental scene with Rose and Renet. "The monsters and the Doctor, you cannot have one without the other" etc. For Rose, fair enough. But we met Renet 25 minutes ago for the first time and have seen her in about 4 scenes. We have no real basis for identifying with her as a result. They're trying to paint a passionate connection here, but it's going way too fast so it all comes across as rushed and over-paced. So every scene becomes an over-powered revelation session or a bit of action. "One may tolerate a world of demons for the sake of an angel" etc. Um, ok.

Or I suppose you could just have a wank. This scene - the keys are meeting Rene as a child (the monsters bit) and meeting her as a smart woman (the ability to come off with the line you quote) and the connection with the Doctor. As the previous scenes worked, this one worked.

One big thing first: "we can't use the Tardis, we're part of events now" but yet we can use a time window to achieve exactly the same effect? The logic of this hangs by a thread and also pretty much undoes the whole girl-in-a-fireplace story, but that is the problem that all time travel stories have. Why is it that it becomes such a tragedy when he could just Tardis-pop over and see her whenever. This sort of thing has never been adequately explained in the whole show, to be fair, and it's not Russ or his writers' fault. It's the way the show is.

What is bad though is when the story deliberately excludes one means of travel, but not the other. That's just poor story construction. If it's going to work inside a story constraint for dramatic tension about being part of events, then fine. Suspension of disbelief and all that. But don't then undermine the disbelief with arbitrary decisions to just get to the big finish. That's bad writing.

In Who continuity there is fairly well established rules on time travel. Ignoring those rules would be bad writing and in the context of the show, the situation makes sense. Whether or not it does in real life is beside the point.

Oh, I can't be arsed with the rest. Basically, you're wrong.

[scottcr]

I don't see what the problem is with the dalek "one liners"...

"you are better at dying" - wasn't really a joke was it - it was the daleks squaring up for a fight... also, these particular daleks were more 'human'. The cybermen were shown to be completely irrelevant to the daleks - I do wish we'd seen more cybermen though. At some points, the episode didn't have the scale it should have had... it felt as though there were about 5 cybermen maurading around canary wharf, rather than 5 million of them. The scene with the cybermen on the bridge would have been *really* cool if they'd cgi'd in a huge army of them, rather than use just 8.

having said that, it's still been great. In general though, I think I prefered season 1. I'm wondering if they were expecting CE to still be the doctor when some of these scripts were written.

[Boyatsea]

I dissected the show pretty carefully at your request.

You did, and like I said, there are only two points that I think run true; the issue of it being quite speedy, and the Doctor's "part of events" excuse. You're right on those.

The rest I disagree with. I could have just quoted every single part and said "no" - but it's your opinion. There's not much point in doing that.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la, it's all conjecture and opinion anyway" is no kind of response. You asked for the dissection, there it is. Now either admit that I'm basically right or construct a proper counter-argument. The choice is yours.

I'm not doing anything of the sort - I simply just don't agree with you. We're not arguing about statements of fact. We're arguing about points that we obviously see differently. The Girl in the Fireplace is one of my favourite TV moments of recent times, but you don't like it. Indeed, seemingly you sat taking notes rather than actually sitting down and enjoying it - but that's your choice.

[pretentious_helvetica]

They should have ended before Catherine Tate made her appearance and pretty much RUINED the moment.

I'm just wondering when Catherine Tate asked to be in the series... if Russ decided "aha, you'll be perfect at the end of the heart-wrenching final scene!" then shit on him. The Doctor shedding tears for Rose was pretty incredible stuff and as Mr Lime has mentioned earlier, if they left it at a tracking shot of the Doctor alone in the TARDIS, that would of been perfect.

Sadly the show needs to cater for the time and mainstream audience it's appealing to, so Catherine Tate it is. Saying that though, this is the same show where we see the Daleks FRY A MAN'S HEAD.

[Bad Ambassador]

dunno - for me, some folks here are really over analysing this...

I agree with that actually. Poor old Doctor Who, it's not made to be analysed to death. It's designed as a good Saturday night romp which 8 million people watch.

Mind you, I suppose analysing things is what people like us do...

[Boyatsea]

I agree with that actually. Poor old Doctor Who, it's not made to be analysed to death. It's designed as a good Saturday night romp which 8 million people watch.

Mind you, I suppose analysing things is what people like us do...

People like us, eh?

[El Pibe]

Someone does seem to be taking it all a bit too seriously.

Anyways...I don't think the actual Tate scene was too bad. I was just disappointed it was her.

I liked the way the Dr didn't even have time to be sad about Rose and was immediately thrust into a new adventure!

I'm also glad he didn't say 'I love you' to her.

[Bad Ambassador]

People like us, eh?

Well... you.

[pretentious_helvetica]

I'm also glad he didn't say 'I love you' to her.

Has the Doctor ever confessed his love to a companion? If not, then this is good news.

[SeanR]

"Go on, ask me about the glasses!"

[Davros sock drawer]

This is a pretty embarrassing post.

Sorry, care to explain why? Or did you just want to insult me?

[Davros sock drawer]

There's lots of reasons why. Some examples could be:

1. That "British inferiority complex" thing

2. Identification.

3. Nostalgia.

4. Celebrity.

None of these are reasons why I enjoy the current series of Who. Maybe I'm "simple" or something, but I find the majority of the episodes to be entertaining, engaging, and exciting. Interesting stories, well told. The dialogue usually crackles along, and I come away from them pretty satisfied.

I'm not sure where that leaves your in-depth analysis of the writing. I can see your points on a couple of things, mainly around the convenient plot resolutions, but it's all irrelevant to me if I enjoy what I watch. Sometimes I don't, but I accept that some people do, and that the series doesn't need "fixing" just because I didn't happen to enjoy it on any given week.

So either I enjoy crap writing, or the writing isn't crap after all. Take your pick.

[DoctorK]

Has the Doctor ever confessed his love to a companion? If not, then this is good news.

As far as I know only in a Big Finish audio, the 8th Doctor told Charley he loved her when she said the same to him.

[Davros sock drawer]

It's nice to see that when you've done a bit of work on telly you can't have an opinion about anything anymore, without a bitter done-nothing cunt having silly little pops at you.

What a fucking forum this is sometimes.

This is true. I certainly can't comment on a band very easily around here anymore.

But the way this forum works surely is of no surprise to you? It manages to spoil everything it touches at some point. Even the Food Folder's had cold water poured on it.

Maybe I'll stay away from this thread next season. There's something decidedly unhealthy about the discussion in here.

[Zero]

Great episode and a nice ending to the series, but Catherine Tate? Fuck off. She better not be the Doctor's new sidekick for series 3, cant stand her.

[Boyatsea]

Well... you.

Bitch.

Maybe I'll stay away from this thread next season. There's something decidedly unhealthy about the discussion in here.

Indeed. I sit and watch 45 minutes of brilliant telly, and end up being depressed about it. Daft. I'll skip this next series, I think.

[biglime]

Even the Food Folder's had cold water poured on it.

I hope not. I've been using your recipes.

Hey, it's the usual suspects. I didn't say I was surprised. I'll be back here next year, don't worry.

[Massive Invisible Dog]

Sorry, care to explain why? Or did you just want to insult me?

It just read like the complaints of the kid in playground who's upset that the other kids have started insulting something he loves.

[JBD]

This is true. I certainly can't comment on a band very easily around here anymore.

But the way this forum works surely is of no surprise to you? It manages to spoil everything it touches at some point. Even the Food Folder's had cold water poured on it.

Maybe I'll stay away from this thread next season. There's something decidedly unhealthy about the discussion in here.

I think the only thing thats unhealthy about the discussion in here is that it's become a little personal in the last few pages. But look, virtually everyone in here either enjoys the show or at least *wants* to enjoy it. Neuromancer likes to piss and moan about *everything* (don't deny it man ), but I think all his points were well thought out and were valid to one degree or another, despite the fact that I enjoyed Saturdays show, so fair enough.

[Andsom]

At some points, the episode didn't have the scale it should have had... it felt as though there were about 5 cybermen maurading around canary wharf, rather than 5 million of them. The scene with the cybermen on the bridge would have been *really* cool if they'd cgi'd in a huge army of them, rather than use just 8.

"This is the story of war on earth (for an afternoon)"

[Davros sock drawer]

It just read like the complaints of the kid in playground who's upset that the other kids have started insulting something he loves.

I don't know where you got that from. The tone of my post was nothing like that at all, and it's not even remotely how I feel about it.