Doctor Who

[tiedtiger]

Incidentally, and to avoid getting everyone on a total downer.

Favourite episodes this year were the Satan two parter and the one with Peter Kay and the little Who-hunting group. One because it was, y'know, epic and evil, and the other because it was really very sweet.

Not to be picky, but Fireplace was actually written by Steven Moffat. Russell can't really take any praise or criticism for that particular episode.

As executive producer (or whatever his show-runner title is), he's the one that okays or nays the thing and would be the quality arbiter editor and whatnot of the whole thing. So yes, I'm afraid he can.

[Fireproofradiator]

Neuromancer - good points mate. God knows I think the show's bollocksed it up plenty of times but I'd argue it has been successful in creating a coherant world, largely through the Tylers, who also provide an emotional heart you never really got before on the show. And the treatment of the Doctor in terms of continuity has been spot on - the odd back reference for the fanboys while bearing in mind it has to reach a new audience.

There's a bit of 'Eee, it used to be fields round here' to what you're saying, and the fact is Doctor Who, both show and character, has always been inconsistent - it's part of the charm/horror. There is now, always was and, I'd imagine, always will be plenty of Not Good writing both within and without Doctor Who, but I think that Father's Day and School Reunion demonstrate quality of writing and breadth that will stand the test of time.

Agree 100% with the rabbit pulling comment. Davies is a pig for this.

[Boyatsea]

As executive producer (or whatever his show-runner title is), he's the one that okays or nays the thing and would be the quality arbiter editor and whatnot of the whole thing. So yes, I'm afraid he can.

He can take criticism, but you said 'write'. You can't really point the finger at him for the writing of that episode. Given, he will have had an input, but he wasn't the designated writer.

[toonfool]

I've been rewatching this series' episodes this week. There's a curve going through most of them, leading up to the finale. School Reunion in particular looks far better in hindsight.

[tiedtiger]

It wasn't an adventure, it was a love story.

A hamfisted love story then.

With a magic wand plot conclusion.

Oh, and a 2-second "tragic" ending.

Like I say, good ideas. Just poorly handled.

He can take criticism, but you said 'write'. You can't really point the finger at him for the writing of that episode. Given, he will have had an input, but he wasn't the designated writer.

He will have commissioned, edited, reviewed, brainstormed, demanded re-writes on sections, etc etc etc. Moffat will have written and rewritten within very specific outlines, comments and directives. You ARE being picky.

[Boyatsea]

He will have commissioned, edited, reviewed, brainstormed, demanded re-writes on sections, etc etc etc. Moffat will have written and rewritten within very specific outlines, comments and directives. You ARE being picky.

I wouldn't have said anything, but you said he doesn't know how to write the Doctor - that's the point which I was referring to. You can't make that accusation at that particular episode. Tis all.

As it happens, I think you'll find a fair few people who would agree with you. These pages have been littered with criticisms of Russell's own episodes - some more valid that others - but I don't think you can successfully make a claim that Fireplace suffers for the same reasons.

[kensei]

I thought it was going to be something about climbing stairs.

I'm really not sure about those bits. I'd really like the enemies to be, well, evil! And then if they are going to crack jokes, it could at least be black humour, rather than the kind of thing a 6 year old comes out with on a playground.

Oh you all need a sense of perspective. It just underscored what malevalen little bastards the Daleks are.

I laughed, anyway.

[Popo]

One of the best episodes of new Who we have had the pleasure and honour of viewing.

I wept openly.

[tiedtiger]

Neuromancer - good points mate. God knows I think the show's bollocksed it up plenty of times but I'd argue it has been successful in creating a coherant world, largely through the Tylers, who also provide an emotional heart you never really got before on the show. And the treatment of the Doctor in terms of continuity has been spot on - the odd back reference for the fanboys while bearing in mind it has to reach a new audience.

I also think the same as you about the Tylers.

It's a shame in a sense that they've been effectivey nuked as a group from the show.

There's a bit of 'Eee, it used to be fields round here' to what you're saying, and the fact is Doctor Who, both show and character, has always been inconsistent - it's part of the charm/horror. There is now, always was and, I'd imagine, always will be plenty of Not Good writing both within and without Doctor Who, but I think that Father's Day and School Reunion demonstrate quality of writing and breadth that will stand the test of time.

Oh the original show was always a mixed bag, no argument there. I'm just talking about in terms of comparing it to modern TV where the bar has raised in sci-fi in terms plot and character arcs etc.

Agree 100% with the rabbit pulling comment. Davies is a pig for this.

Yep.

I can't fihure out why he does it exactly, but I suspect it's because he feels that the timeframe of his show's format means that he has to be so much more splashy or he'll lose the audience or something like that. The better episodes of the show have all been two-parters (the Satan one, the gas mask disease one etc), so maybe his problem is that he needs to give himself more room to manouver.

[toonfool]

A hamfisted love story then.

With a magic wand plot conclusion.

Oh, and a 2-second "tragic" ending.

Fair enough, it's all subjective. I was blown away by it.

[Fireproofradiator]

The new show does try and tug at the old heart strings doesn't it? Be interesting to see where this content comes from if the Tylers aren't around...

Does anyone remember blubbing at the old series?

[Boyatsea]

Oh you all need a sense of perspective. It just underscored what malevalen little bastards the Daleks are.

You know, if 2006's Daleks went back to Destiny of the Daleks, they'd kick the Movellan's collective arses.

[tiedtiger]

I wouldn't have said anything, but you said he doesn't know how to write the Doctor - that's the point which I was referring to. You can't make that accusation at that particular episode. Tis all.

As it happens, I think you'll find a fair few people who would agree with you. These pages have been littered with criticisms of Russell's own episodes - some more valid that others - but I don't think you can successfully make a claim that Fireplace suffers for the same reasons.

It makes most of the same mistakes as his own-written ones.

So yeah, I really can y'know.

[biglime]

The new show does try and tug at the old heart strings doesn't it? Be interesting to see where this content comes from if the Tylers aren't around...

Does anyone remember blubbing at the old series?

I mentioned Time-Flight, aye?

[Fireproofradiator]

I think that the only way to approach Doctor Who if you're trying to make the damn thing is to see it as a kids show though. Call it a sci-fi show and try and make it one and you'll wind up looking cheap in comparison with the substantially bigger budgeted US shows. Ref Impossible Planet. On the other hand, focus on the ideas, and characters and you can win - ref Father's Day.

That's the reason everyone's always whittering on about Eastenders in the show rather than Captain Kirk... It's all about the characters.

[Boyatsea]

Fair enough, it's all subjective. I was blown away by it.

o/\o

Tears and tingles. Actually had that too with the ending of New Earth, despite what went before. And this week's too, naturally.

It makes most of the same mistakes as his own-written ones.

So yeah, I really can y'know.

Elaborate on those mistakes, with Fireplace in mind. Seriously. I can't understand picking on that episode. It's some of the best telly I've ever seen.

[tiedtiger]

I think that the only way to approach Doctor Who if you're trying to make the damn thing is to see it as a kids show though. Call it a sci-fi show and try and make it one and you'll wind up looking cheap in comparison with the substantially bigger budgeted US shows. Ref Impossible Planet. On the other hand, focus on the ideas, and characters and you can win - ref Father's Day.

It's not so much that as just looking at them to see whether they are good stories or not.

Interesting point though. Didn't Russ get his start in children's TV?

[Popo]

This urban myth of The Simpsons going into steady decline is ridiculous.

I call shit on this comment.

[tiedtiger]

Elaborate on those mistakes, with Fireplace in mind. Seriously. I can't understand picking on that episode. It's some of the best telly I've ever seen.

Tomorrow I will (If I remember).

Sleep calls.

[kensei]

I particularly liked the Cybermen "Do not be afraid...." speech. It was the only time I think they properly nailled what the Cybermen were about.

I didn't mind the ending, though I kind of thought the Doctor would travel on his own a bit off screen to get over Rose.

On Girl in The Fireplace, while superficially it may have all the complaints Neuromancer listed, he seems to miss the fact that it worked. It was tight story telling where the conclusons didn't ring false as it sometimes has because it was properly set up and the 2 second emotional ending actually had real power because the script managed to convey a whole emotional relationship in very few lines. It absolutely nailed the formula, because the writing was nigh on perfect.

Also bear in mind that this type of show with different settings and characters each week, is bloody hard to do. There are going to up and downs in quality.

[Boyatsea]

I call shit on this comment.

Me too. If that means that you disagree with him, that is.

Some of the more recent eps I've seen on C4 (albeit, not overly recent) have just been terrible. The Simpsons seems to have gone from having a strict almost soap-style plot in the early days, to a nice mix in the middle where the story used to flit about occasionally in a random fashion, to one where the plots now are just piss poor and the random scenes/lines just don't cut it.

It's like they've lost all motivation. I saw an awful 'Halloween' ep the other week, when all these big statue type things came to life, but they die as soon as people stopped looking at them. What the fuck? The last Sideshow Bob one I saw, when he hypnotises Bart into killing Krusty, was pretty dire too - and they for me were always a highlight.

Anyway. This is in the wrong thread, really.

[womblingfree]

Wasn't phased by Roses final scenes. I felt that the end of series 1 was far more moving. "Looks like you need a Doctor!"

The chemistry between Billie and the new fella was far too mawkish, pally and knowing. Looked like there wasn't that much real life chemistry between them. As Rose was about to be flushed into the void it was almost comical, although Dads last second rescue was very good.

Will be pleased to see him having to deal with someone he doesn't know.

Anyhow I thought series 2 certainly had its good moments. Nun cats with zombies, paedo scribble monsters and geeky, pavement lovers being my favourites. Not as good as series 1 though, no Fathers Day or Empty Child, beaters and the haunted TV episode was a waste of a great idea.

I really hope we get to see some stories lasting more than one or two episodes. 'Oh look a billion daleks...Oh, flushed em down the loo,' is getting a bit much. Tension please. Oh, and sort out the lighting! Too many overlit hospital corridors this season.

[hughes]

I enjoyed yesterdays episode. Other than that I enjoyed GITF as well. The other episodes I didn't watch/enjoy. I don't think Doctor Who is really my cup of tea really, but it does throw up the occassional brilliant episode.

[Sng]

It was ok yeah. I wasn't too keen on that woman being turned into a 'good' cyberman though, and crying black oily spunk tears.

[MrNobody]

(...) the plots rely way too much on the Doctor pulling rabbits out of hats without believable forewarning. Everything else about the show is good, from the casting to the set design.

Although I think I'm enjoying the new Who a bit more than it sounds like you are, I really do think the plots are by far the weakest thing about it. It's all very well to say that it's getting good ratings and must therefore be doing everything right, but the issue is that it's meeting people's expectations, not trying to exceed them. Yes, the kids and families who sit around the telly on a Saturday night will happily swallow half-baked stories saved by witty dialogue, but the series could be doing so much better than that. Keep the dialogue, keep the humour, keep Russell T D as the character writer, but please, BBC, get someone who can write original, clever sci-fi plots as the structure around which all this stuff can be built.

I'm not talking about continuity- and jargon-heavy stuff. I understand that they want Who to be accessible, and I think it's the best thing they could possibly do with it. It's just that right now they seem to be settling for 'acceptable' when the show could be amazing, with no loss of the things that get it good ratings. Just because kids don't complain when they get a story full of plot holes, inconsistencies and off-screen hand-waving shouldn't mean you don't try to give them something better. They wouldn't complain if you gave them McDonald's every night, either.

[Davros sock drawer]

Is everyone around here a writer or something? Only I wonder what qualifies some of you to pass such final judgement on "The Writing".

I don't know anything about writing a TV show. All I know is that for 45 minutes, 8 or 9 times out of 10, I am entertained & amused. Sometimes I'm even scared or saddened.

This seems to be the case for the majority of people.

Mainstream reviews are consistently positive.

It won a Bafta.

I don't see the problem. Even when I hate an episode, I still don't see the problem. This is mainstream telly, handled in a mainstream way. It isn't some obscure cult gem, on at 1am on the Sci-Fi channel, this is 7pm, BBC1, Saturday night, must-watch telly. It works. I didn't think it would, but it does. You can say the ratings are irrelevant, but millions of people tune in every week to watch it. That can't be gainsaid.

And yet still, people are getting something better than they might expect from Mainstream Telly. They're getting musings on loss, on death, on the notion of family, on individuality and its loss, on bravery, on anything you care to mention, because the programme's remit is pretty much infinite. For a mere Kids' show, this is unprecedented by anything other than Who itself.

Bear in mind that I didn't want the show to return. I'm not "blinded" by my love of Who whatsoever. I'm enjoying it, or not, on its own merits, based on the stories I'm being told. These stories are very enjoyable.

If the writing is bad, how come I'm having such a good time?

[Garwoofoo]

Well, I suppose now we can look back on series 2 as a whole. And in general I loved it, as I loved the first series, but it was undeniably more patchy. Part of this was the fact it was more experimental (I adored Love & Monsters, though I can well understand why others hated it) but I did get the impression that Tennant's Doctor had a rough start.

I think Charlie Brooker summed it up well in yesterday's Guardian when he said that Tennant veers between boggle-eyed clown and intergalactic elder statesman with nothing in between (or words to that effect) and that we need more of the latter and much less of the former. Couldn't agree more with that. Partly this was down to Tennant's slightly nervous overacting (he improved as time went on) and partly it was the writing. The writers clearly had to deal with a Doctor they'd never seen and I'm sure the brief for Tennant went "wacky, slightly unhinged". Next year, with the benefit of a Doctor everyone knows, I'm sure the scripts will improve and Tennant will start to tone it down. He wouldn't be the first Doctor to mature and refine his approach after his first season: McCoy did exactly the same thing.

It's a shame, though, because after Casanova I was really fired up for Tennant as the Doctor, and although he hasn't disappointed, as such, I thought he'd shine a bit more. Basically I thought he'd become my favourite Doctor extremely quickly, and he didn't; in fact watching The Parting Of The Ways last week in preparation for another finale, I became surprisingly nostalgic for Ecclestone. He was great, and I never really appreciated it at the time.

Anyway, for what it's worth, this season I adored The Girl In The Fireplace, Love & Monsters, Army Of Ghosts/Doomsday, the Christmas Invasion and School Reunion, quite enjoyed The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit and Tooth & Claw, thought the Cybermen 2-parter and Fear Her should have been a bit better, and couldn't stand New Earth and The Idiot's Lantern. It's about the same ratio as series 1, but then series 1 never had anything as woeful as New Earth.

Roll on series 3. But Catherine Tate in the Christmas Special? *shudder*

[AK Bell]

Is there not even a tiny, wee gap to push Catherine Tate into the void too?

[Bad Ambassador]

Me too. If that means that you disagree with him, that is.

Some of the more recent eps I've seen on C4 (albeit, not overly recent) have just been terrible.

God yes. Season 8 is the last great season of The Simpsons - it all goes distinctly tits-up after that, with the show's heart and soul seemingly sacrificed for ever-more bizarre storylines and star cameos. It's painful and depressing to watch.

7.7 million and 43% for 'Doomsday' - 1.5 million more than watched the finale last year, and above all but two episodes of the 'big' soaps. Hooray. Sorry if this is stealing your thunder, sailor... but it's nice that the final two-parter will top 8 million in final figures, because it was splendid.

[Mogster]

If the writing is bad, how come I'm having such a good time?

My thoughts exactly. There's never been a TV show before that I've actually loved like do Doctor Who, and that's definitely not nostalgia speaking. Aside from the TV movie (which I can barely remember), Rose was the first episode I'd seen of Who, and since then I've been through so much excitement, laughter and tears more times then I could possibly have hoped for. Added to that it also spurred me into getting into classic Who, and I now have sixteen DVDs on my shelf along with three books.

Doctor Who under the direction of Russell T. Davies is a phenomenon, and that's wonderful, but I certainly don't have to fall on its success to justify my enjoyment.