Doctor Who

[SM47]

Double Post.

[Davros sock drawer]

Really?

Ah well, I'm glad it pleased some people.

Don't get me wrong Mr Lime, I can't stand Catherine Tate. But for the reasons stated above, RTD couldn't leave a nation of kiddly winks and their Mums & Dads on a downer, he has to get them enthused about the ongoing series. So for the mass audience it works like this:

- Rose is gone. The Doctor is upset.

- WTF is a bride doing in the Tardis? Isn't that Catherine Tate?

- Rose who?

That's how I see it anyway. I really didn't feel it detracted from the horrible, gut-wrenching sadness of the preceding scenes. In fact, by that point I was thinking "Enough! This is upsetting me!", and I was glad of the abrupt change in tone. I suspect it was abrupt for that very reason. He knows his stuff, that RTD. He knows his stuff.

[Jack]

See, I felt like I should be backing the Cybermen, given that they were always my favourite enemy when I was growing up.

I was backing the Cybermen. Who would you rather be - a pepper pot which wobbles when it talks, or fucking Iron Man?

[biglime]

Don't get me wrong Mr Lime, I can't stand Catherine Tate. But for the reasons stated above, RTD couldn't leave a nation of kiddly winks and their Mums & Dads on a downer, he has to get them enthused about the ongoing series. So for the mass audience it works like this:

- Rose is gone. The Doctor is upset.

- WTF is a bride doing in the Tardis? Isn't that Catherine Tate?

- Rose who?

That's how I see it anyway. I really didn't feel it detracted from the horrible, gut-wrenching sadness of the preceding scenes. In fact, by that point I was thinking "Enough! This is upsetting me!", and I was glad of the abrupt change in tone. I suspect it was abrupt for that very reason. He knows his stuff, RTD. He knows his stuff.

There's nothing wrong with the change in tone, but it felt really formulaic. The exact same thing happened at the end of last year's finale.

Time to say goodbye. The Doctor is dying. "I am leaving." Heartbreak...but hark!

Funny guy appears. Makes us smile, makes us laugh! The Doctor! A NEW Doctor!

And that's perfect.

This time the change in tone came from someone other than The Doctor, and what's worse, was a cheap little change in tone derived from an external source - "ooh, it's that Catherine Tate lass!"

Do you know what I mean? It felt really lazy and sloppy. If a little light note was necessary, it should have been a Doctor and Rose related light note. Not someone falling into our laps like a joke from a Christmas Cracker.

That was all. Still. Good series. Hopefully the third series will eradicate all these little problems.

[Boyatsea]

- Rose is gone. The Doctor is upset.

- WTF is a bride doing in the Tardis? Isn't that Catherine Tate?

- Rose who?

You're right, though. It did its job, and will have got people talking. Can't really compare with "Barcelona!", but you can't have him regenerating at the end of every series.

[Davros sock drawer]

This time the change in tone came from someone other than The Doctor, and what's worse, was a cheap little change in tone derived from an external source - "ooh, it's that Catherine Tate lass!"

Do you know what I mean?

Not really, I have to say. Well, a bit. You can't have a Doctor-related surprise at the end of every season, and like I said, from a mass audience point of view, it's perfect. Perhaps it wasn't the most artistic thing they could have done, but I still think it's a masterful handling of the audience, and a great way to distill the essence of the series into one scene.

[Jack]

You're right, though. It did its job, and will have got people talking.

You're right, this got people talking. "Love & Monsters" got people talking. The Holocaust got people talking.

[:mediadavid:]

"I was there at the fall of Arcadia..."

I liked that piece of dialog. While i don't expect it to ever be explained in 'new who', in the extended universe, does that mean anything? or is this the first appearance of Arcadia?

[Boyatsea]

You're right, this got people talking. "Love & Monsters" got people talking. The Holocaust got people talking.

I'm glad you're the one that compared Love & Monsters to the Holocaust.

[biglime]

Not really, I have to say. Well, a bit. You can't have a Doctor-related surprise at the end of every season, and like I said, from a mass audience point of view, it's perfect. Perhaps it wasn't the most artistic thing they could have done, but I still think it's a masterful handling of the audience, and a great way to distill the essence of the series into one scene.

Hm.

Basically, I thought it was naff. And the greatest thing about Who since its return is that its high points have been achieved without having to resort to naff little cop-out moments.

But hey, if I can survive Time-Flight, I can survive this.

[tiedtiger]

Maybe it's the same curse which happens to many TV shows - including The Simpsons. As they get more popular, the writers don't try as hard and rest on their laurels.

After two hundred episodes and more the Simpsons finally began to go stale.

Dr Who has had 26 episodes across 2 seasons and, especially from a writing point of view, they have always been weak. Some are better than others, but the general theme is slushy sentimentality covering the links between splashes of SFX and overall lack of in-depth plots. What the show needs more than anything else is writers who can construct stories, and Russ just aint up to the job.

I have enjoyed Tennant's characterisation most this year, however. As a Doctor, he's really very good, better than Eccleston in many ways. Now what he needs is good material.

They don't have to prove themselves because the show is loved by so many.

The Guardian recently reported that the show had experienced a sharp drop in ratings. Dunno whether it has swung upwards again since.

[Jack]

I'm glad you're the one that compared Love & Monsters to the Holocaust.

Speaking of the Holocaust, "The Shadow In The Glass" is a good Doctor Who book. Colin Baker versus Adolf Hitler? Why not?

[Boyatsea]

The Guardian recently reported that the show had experienced a sharp drop in ratings. Dunno whether it has swung upwards again since.

The Guardian was talking bollocks. They were going purely on overnight figures, and obviously had a space to fill that day.

I got very bored yesterday.

[Davros sock drawer]

Dr Who has had 26 episodes across 2 seasons and, especially from a writing point of view, they have always been weak. Some are better than others, but the general theme is slushy sentimentality covering the links between splashes of SFX and overall lack of in-depth plots. What the show needs more than anything else is writers who can construct stories, and Russ just aint up to the job.

You're definitely in the minority there. Most people think it's been the best "new" TV show in years. The show doesn't need anything, since it's a resounding success, both in terms of ratings and critical acclaim.

My word, I'm making my points well tonight.

Biglime - I couldn't bear to sit through Time Flight, so that's +1 Who Stamina Points to you.

[Jack]

Still, even though the last ten seconds were shit, they were still better than any episode of Buffy ever.

[Davros sock drawer]

Still, even though the last ten seconds were shit, they were still better than any episode of Buffy ever.

You've done it now. I'm going to bed before it all kicks off.

Night.

[toonfool]

I didn't realise it was Catherine Tate while watching. Frankly, it took me by surprise when she appeared. Like Davros said, it took the sad moment and said "hey, we're moving on. Start counting down to Christmas".

[Boyatsea]

Still, even though the last ten seconds were shit, they were still better than any episode of Buffy ever.

[tiedtiger]

You're definitely in the minority there. Most people think it's been the best "new" TV show in years. The show doesn't need anything, since it's a resounding success, both in terms of ratings and critical acclaim.

That's because it's trading on a pre-existing mythology (like the star wars prequels, trek franchises, x-men movies etc) and for some reason that sort of re-creation thing attracts modern audiences. Whatever it is, memories of youth, nostalgia, whatever. Nostalgia qualities doesn't actually mean that said recreation is actually any good (see the latter day works of George Lucas). And it's only on in the prime time slot of the prime time station in the country. Of course it will have higher ratings than most of the rest of the week.

In terms of the actual quality of the show's writing, it is Not Good. The emotive scenes are all too hammy and the plots rely way too much on the Doctor pulling rabbits out of hats without believable forewarning. Everything else about the show is good, from the casting to the set design. The effects are event decent. But the writing, oh the writing, is just plain bad. It's a real testament to how far quality writing has fallen in Britain that a show that badly written can win a Best Drama BAFTA.

I'm not looking for Shakespeare here because it is a sci-fi entertainment show. But some sort of coherency or continuity that didn't feel crowbarred in would be nice (Bad Wolf last year, Torchwood this year etc). Some sort of consistent quality story construction and story arcs likewise. They have everything in place to make a really top notch show except that the writing is frigging awful. It's gonna bite them in the ass eventually.

[Fireproofradiator]

Fuck me, the 'gay' stuff is a bit weak. I know there might be an agenda behind some of the comments but that doesn't stop it feeling like The Sun Online round here atm. You're on a Doctor Who thread...

Anyway, I thought Neuromancer's comments hit home hard. There's some great stuff in the new series, but I'd love to see someone else take over the reigns from Davies for a bit.

[Boyatsea]

And it's only on in the prime time slot of the prime time station in the country. Of course it will have higher ratings than most of the rest of the week.

That's not actually true. Ever since the demise of shows like The Generation Game, Noel's House Party et al, Saturday night's have been the hardest territory for any channel to claim. Two years back, I remember reading an article in the Independent which pretty much claimed that all the channels had given up on trying to get the family back in front of the telly of a weekend.

How daft that sounds now. Who's ability to gain a 6-9 million audience on a Saturday evening should not be sniffed at. It's actually one of the toughest slots in the week.

[toonfool]

In terms of the actual quality of the show's writing, it is Not Good. The emotive scenes are all too hammy and the plots rely way too much on the Doctor pulling rabbits out of hats without believable forewarning. Everything else about the show is good, from the casting to the set design. The effects are event decent. But the writing, oh the writing, is just plain bad. It's a real testament to how far quality writing has fallen in Britain that a show that badly written can win a Best Drama BAFTA.

The Girl In The Fireplace was one of the best written TV stories I've ever seen.

[tiedtiger]

That's not actually true. Ever since the demise of shows like The Generation Game, Noel's House Party et al, Saturday night's have been the hardest territory for any channel to claim. Two years back, I remember reading an article in the Independent which pretty much claimed that all the channels had given up on trying to get the family back in front of the telly of a weekend.

How daft that sounds now. Who's ability to gain a 6-9 million audience on a Saturday evening should not be sniffed at. It's actually one of the toughest slots in the week.

Leading into the National Lottery as it does and all, I would take that with a grain of salt.

[biglime]

The Girl In The Fireplace was one of the best written TV stories I've ever seen.

Yep.

[Boyatsea]

Anyway, I thought Neuromancer's comments hit home hard. There's some great stuff in the new series, but I'd love to see someone else take over the reigns from Davies for a bit.

I think if and when Davies leaves, Phil Collinson will move into his role. Which will probably mean you won't notice the difference - a good or bad thing, depending on your point of view.

The Girl In The Fireplace was one of the best written TV stories I've ever seen.

o/\o

[biglime]

Leading into the National Lottery as it does and all, I would take that with a grain of salt.

There's no arguing with its ratings. It IS that popular.

There shouldn't be any discussion of ratings allowed in this thread, though. Ratings are irrelevant.

[Boyatsea]

Leading into the National Lottery as it does and all, I would take that with a grain of salt.

The Lottery isn't some huge ratings winner, you know. Indeed, if you look at the stats (a la Outpost Gallifrey) on a normal week, BBC 1's audience rises when Who begins, and drops off after it finishes. Indeed, it's been even harder for the last few weeks, because it's had to compete with the World Cup - one week when both matches were on ITV.

[tiedtiger]

The Girl In The Fireplace was one of the best written TV stories I've ever seen.

I thought it was pretty hamfisted.

Like most of the better episodes, the setup was nicely handled, but then by the time the the big reveal at the end came around, it had gotten so absurd that it required the Doctor to come in with a big magic wand and fix it all fait accomplis (and tonight's show was really bad for that, just as the bad wolf finale of last year was).

There's good ideas in here, but Russ doesn't seem to know how to write them in a good way.

[Boyatsea]

There shouldn't be any discussion of ratings allowed in this thread, though. Ratings are irrelevant.

They are in terms of the quality of the show - I'd love it even if I were the only person watching it. But they do matter when it comes to how the BBC views the future of the series.

Plus, it gave an excuse for Bad Ambassador to post. He seems to have gone now, mind.

There's good ideas in here, but Russ doesn't seem to know how to write them in a good way.

Not to be picky, but Fireplace was actually written by Steven Moffat. Russell can't really take any praise or criticism for that particular episode.

[toonfool]

I thought it was pretty hamfisted.

Like most of the better episodes, the setup was nicely handled, but then by the time the the big reveal at the end came around, it had gotten so absurd that it required the Doctor to come in with a big magic wand and fix it all fait accomplis (and tonight's show was really bad for that, just as the bad wolf finale of last year was).

There's good ideas in here, but Russ doesn't seem to know how to write them in a good way.

It wasn't an adventure, it was a love story.