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I think Rose's boyfriend was meant to be stupid on purpose. Er, maybe.

With these things it's hard to tell if the actor was crap/not giving a shit, or he was following the director's requests. Either way, the guy was excruciating to watch.

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Not bad all in all. I think it was weakest when it actually hit the main sci fi stuff. All the talk of the war didn't quite come off. Liked almost everything else. The speach about the world turning was excellent.

While we are on Doctor Who, the episode with the Sweetie monster in it is an infamous example of how silly the old Doctor Who got. But was I the only child who was terrified of Liquorence Allsorts because the idea of turning Bertie freaked the shit out of me? :o

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Direction was insipid and the CGI was borderline awful (thought The Mill were decent at FX, although some of the space stuff next week looks quite good...), but it was very entertaining. Roll on next week, here's hoping that the change of director in a couple of episodes makes it look less "BBC".

Couldn't agree more.

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Good stuff, even the bin burp is excusable considering that it's a kids show. Graham Norton interrupting it, not excusable. No doubt someone's had a proper bollocking for that.

That confused the hell out of me. I take it it wasn't deliberate, then?

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You haven't thought about it very well, have you. Remember. He can travel throught time in the tardis. Therefore, in his current guise he could have been anywhere in time, therefore meaning he would indeed appear in those photos.

I don't buy this. See that would mean the Doctor could see those photos too and see things he hasn't done in the course of his own life yet. That's (almost) completely inconsistent with the show's history.

For obvious reasons, the show glosses over little issues like "why is the Doctor ever in peril? he's got a time machine, just keep going back a few minutes." That and the fact that save on very special occasions he never encounters himself. Therefore by the show's own logic, Clive's pictures mean those adventures must have happend already.

Or, as the only fitting explanation I've heard goes, he hadn't looked in a mirror since regenerating, however long ago that was.

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I don't buy this. See that would mean the Doctor could see those photos too and see things he hasn't done in the course of his own life yet. That's (almost) completely inconsistent with the show's history.

I don't get your point at all. Unless you are saying he can only go forwards in time during each generation.

Sure he *could* have seen the photos if he'd looked for them. But he didn't because he didn't know they existed seeing as they havent been taken yet in his personal timeline.

I don't see any inconsistency.

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I don't get your point at all.  Unless you are saying he can only go forwards in time during each generation.

Sure he *could* have seen the photos if he'd looked for them.  But he didn't because he didn't know they existed seeing as they havent been taken yet in his personal timeline.

I don't see any inconsistency.

The Doctor never encounters evidence of his involvement that so far as he's concerned hasn't happened yet. It's just got no precedent in the show's history. Nothing to do with being limited to going forwards or backwards in time - it's to do with time and history changing owing to his involvement.

Not sure if you're involving a bit of Schroedinger in your example, which would be a tad more complex than my explanation!

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Oh, and I found the incidental music really rather horrible. Better to have no score at all than that rubbish.

Yeah, I didn't like the incidental music too much either, although it did fit the hectic pacing. Hopefully the music will be tailored to future episodes accordingly (I can't see something like that working in the episode set in Victorian London for example).

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But he didn't encounter anything.

Apart from the fact that if he saves the planet then visiting the planet at ANY date after that would be evidence.

But if he'd gone to Clive's house and seen those pictures he would have done, is that what you're saying? Like the cat in the box, if you don't see it it doesn't exist?

That's a bit more weighty than how I'd seen it, the stories rarely get that complex. He was in the same timeline as Clive and Rose, who saw evidence of his involvement, so it's enough for me to see some inconsistency there.

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I'm afraid to say that I absolutely hated it.

I'm especially annoyed because I allowed myself to get caught up in the hype, and ended up really looking forward to it. The compilation trailer they showed on Jonathon Ross looked really exciting in places, so by the time I sat down to watch it, I was very excited. And then...

Halo style bombastic orchestration in the theme music. Really un-sinister, and the famous bass line almost completely absent.

Awful incidental music. Like, unbelievably bad turn the sound down for fuck's sake, awful.

Too much comedy mugging. The scene with the arm for instance.

Over-ambitious special effects. The Wheelie bin for example, but also the crap lava-based Nestene Consciousness. Whatever happened to the power of suggestion? The cork in the head bit was poor as well. Leave the clever stuff to Hollywood you BBC muppets. It was all too brightly lit as well.

Too short. This is never going to work as standalone 45 minute episodes. So many things under-explained or under-developed. In the original Auton story, Spearhead from Space, the plastics factory gave a decent reason for shop dummies to be used by the Nestene. Here, they were just...there. How did they get there? Who was orchestrating this dastardly plot? How did the boyfriend get from the wheelie bin, to being a fake plastic facsimili and being captured in the time it took Rose to pop into a house for 5 minutes, then back again?

I found Ecclestone disappointing. But then, I always did take a while to get used to each Dr, so I'm hoping he'll improve. In fact the only thing I really liked was Billie Piper's performance.

I'm hoping it gets better. I like the look of some of the forthcoming episodes, like the one with the gas masks (Sinister! Just as it should be!), but next week's looks pretty poor, with loads of silly, cheap looking aliens.

So far on a scale of Tom to Colin it sits just above the silliest McCoy episodes and just below the silliest Pertwee episodes. i.e. Not bloody good enough!

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I still don't see it.

Hmm. Ok - bear in mind that as I mentioned earlier the stories have always avoided certain thorny issues to do with the Doctor's mere presence being able to shape the future and the past. Otherwise, his actions do of course affect events, and when he visits the future, things are different because of those actions, but he has to actually perform them first before he encounters any evidence of them. Regardless of whether or not he actually saw the pictures, he was in the same time zone as Clive and Rose who saw evidence of him being at certain events, in his current regeneration. That little comment when he glanced in the mirror suggests that he has either just regenerated, or he hasn't seen his own face since regenerating. If it's the latter, no problem. If the former, then it's inconsistent with the show as it implies that evidence exists in the time line in which he is present of things that he hasn't done yet.

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I'm afraid to say that I absolutely hated it.

I'm especially annoyed because I allowed myself to get caught up in the hype, and ended up really looking forward to it. The compilation trailer they showed on Jonathon Ross looked really exciting in places, so by the time I sat down to watch it, I was very excited. And then...

Halo style bombastic orchestration in the theme music. Really un-sinister, and the famous bass line almost completely absent.

Awful incidental music. Like, unbelievably bad turn the sound down for fuck's sake, awful.

Too much comedy mugging. The scene with the arm for instance.

Over-ambitious special effects. The Wheelie bin for example, but also the crap lava-based Nestene Consciousness. Whatever happened to the power of suggestion? The cork in the head bit was poor as well. Leave the clever stuff to Hollywood you BBC muppets. It was all too brightly lit as well.

Too short. This is never going to work as standalone 45 minute episodes. So many things under-explained or under-developed. In the original Auton story, Spearhead from Space, the plastics factory gave a decent reason for shop dummies to be used by the Nestene. Here, they were just...there. How did they get there? Who was orchestrating this dastardly plot? How did the boyfriend get from the wheelie bin, to being a fake plastic facsimili and being captured in the time it took Rose to pop into a house for 5 minutes, then back again?

I found Ecclestone disappointing. But then, I always did take a while to get used to each Dr, so I'm hoping he'll improve. In fact the only thing I really liked was Billie Piper's performance.

I'm hoping it gets better. I like the look of some of the forthcoming episodes, like the one with the gas masks (Sinister! Just as it should be!), but next week's looks pretty poor, with loads of silly, cheap looking aliens.

So far on a scale of Tom to Colin it sits just above the silliest McCoy episodes and just below the silliest Pertwee episodes. i.e. Not bloody good enough!

Bummer. I know we agree on the books, but maybe you need to look at a few more of the original TV shows before being too harsh on this one for pacing.

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So according to your theory he can only ever go forwards in time?

No, of course not. But the future is altered by his involvement. For there to be pictures of him in 2005 of events from 1911, or whenever, he'd have had to have been there and taken part. I'm just a bit confused by the comments he made about his ears (christ, it's Monday morning...) as I don't see how he could have done that already. Unless he hasn't seen himself.

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No, of course not. But the future is altered by his involvement. For there to be pictures of him in 2005 of events from 1911, or whenever, he'd have had to have been there and taken part. I'm just a bit confused by the comments he made about his ears (christ, it's Monday morning...) as I don't see how he could have done that already. Unless he hasn't seen himself.

Later in his current timeline he goes back to 1911 (or whenever). He definitely just regenerated.

I *think* I see what you mean but I'm not sure I agree. Then again, I'm no Dr Who expert.

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Later in his current timeline he goes back to 1911 (or whenever).    He definitely just regenerated. 

Yes, but therein lies the problem. I agree with you, I think he has just regenerated when we meet him in Rose, and that he hasn't been to 1911 yet (for the Titanic story that was referenced, for example). So those photos shouldn't exist, yet, so far as he's concerned (that he didn't personally see them is to me irrelevant, they were in the same time line as he was). The fact that he could affect them in the future shouldn't matter, because for the show to work the Doctor can't encounter himself (other than on very special occasions) or the results of events that HE hasn't affected yet. His actions in past and future affect the universe as he sees it. For him to see something he hasn't done yet makes things a lot more complex than the show has ever alluded to in any other story.

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Isn't it just a variation of the Bill & Ted theory? You know, the 'We're fucked - wait! What if we go back in time once this is all done and steal the keys we need and hide them...here!' thing? Just because he hasn't done it yet doesn't mean that the evidence that he will/does/has isn't already there.

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Isn't it just a variation of the Bill & Ted theory? You know, the 'We're fucked - wait! What if we go back in time once this is all done and steal the keys we need and hide them...here!' thing? Just because he hasn't done it yet doesn't mean that the evidence that he will/does/has isn't already there.

But it's not Bill & Ted. That was a one off movie, this is a show that ran for 40 years and had to have rules which allowed it to make some kind of sense if you avoided thinking too hard about it.

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Bummer. I know we agree on the books, but maybe you need to look at a few more of the original TV shows before being too harsh on this one for pacing.

Well, I've seen pretty much all of them (the ones that still exist). I probably hate about 75% of those too. I was just hoping this would slot into the 25% I like.

Thing is, in some ways it was Dr Who. Just not the sort of Who I used to like. Horror of Fang Rock, or The Talons of Weng Chiang, The Robots of Death - those would be my benchmarks. With its everyday setting, this reminded me more of Survival, the last McCoy episode. They could have made something really terrifying out of the Autons, but alas, they were about a 10th as scary as the ones from Pertwee's first story. Urgh, that bit where the one in the boiler suit jumps out in front of the car, then later goes and assasinates that old poacher in his cottage. Creepy as fuck! This was just laughable in comparison.

Do yourselves a favour - go watch Spearhead in Space to see how it should, and indeed was done, 35 years ago.

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As an occassional Who fan (I'm the Pertwee/Baker generation, vaguely remember Peter Davison but that's more or less where I lost interest) I thought that it was incredibly amatuerish. This is 2005, and british Sci Fi can produce good results (Ultraviolet for example) but this was... awful.

Eccleston didn't seem at all comfortable in the role, I thought Billie Piper was sub-Eastenders quality, and couldn't quite believe what I was seeing with the plastic boyfriend (the guy played Wyman on BBC's Auf Weidershen and I always thought he was a fair actor on that). Awful storyline - it may well be linking to some part of the show's history / expanded universe, but as a standalone story it made no sense. Why would anyone animate shop dummies and use them to walk very slowly everywhere to 'take over the world'? And why would the thing controlling them be a puddle of lava? Fucking bizarre. And this steelworks that exists under the London eye - eh!? Why? Why why why? Just didn't feel any of that was explained in between all the pointless running about.

The FX were awful - I mean, awful, like they were 20 years out of date. Babylon 5 has FX that are a zillion times better, and that looks fairly shite nowadays. Let's not forget the FX on shows like Firefly and Galactica - or did the BBC go into it with an 'aim low and fail' philosophy? Honestly, we use better CGI in our cutscenes in games. And they're not supposed to be broadcast quality.

For such a hugely high-profile series with such marketing and hype behind it, I was astonished that anything so tripe would be actually broadcast. Surely the BBC can make a better show than this?

If it was a tongue-in-cheek homage to what WHO used to be all about, then I guess it was a success. If it was supposed to be a modern interpretation of the character and setting then it was just awful.

I still can't quite get over it. As my GF said about halfway through - "Dr Who? Dr fucking cock more like."

What did people with kids think? Did the kids like it? Maybe that was the target audience.....? <_<

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Well, I've seen pretty much all of them (the ones that still exist). I probably hate about 75% of those too. I was just hoping this would slot into the 25% I like.

Thing is, in some ways it was Dr Who. Just not the sort of Who I used to like. Horror of Fang Rock, or The Talons of Weng Chiang, The Robots of Death - those would be my benchmarks. With its everyday setting, this reminded me more of Survival, the last McCoy episode. They could have made something really terrifying out of the Autons, but alas, they were about a 10th as scary as the ones from Pertwee's first story. Urgh, that bit where the one in the boiler suit jumps out in front of the car, then later goes and assasinates that old poacher in his cottage. Creepy as fuck! This was just laughable in comparison.

Do yourselves a favour - go watch Spearhead in Space to see how it should, and indeed was done, 35 years ago.

I know, I've seen it. I couldn't help think when watching this that they had deliberately toned it down to make it less scary. The music was evidence enough of that. But I still think if you're a kid and you see that attack in the shopping mall you're going to be looking at shop dummies in a whole different way. Otherwise why try too hard to scare people? Time's have changed, people are a lot harder to scare now. I'm glad they went the other way.

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I know, I've seen it. I couldn't help think when watching this that they had deliberately toned it down to make it less scary. The music was evidence enough of that. But I still think if you're a kid and you see that attack in the shopping mall you're going to be looking at shop dummies in a whole different way. Otherwise why try too hard to scare people? Time's have changed, people are a lot harder to scare now. I'm glad they went the other way.

I don't know man. I think they should be making it more scary! That clip I saw with the gas-mask wearing patients rising up from their beds in a gloomily lit hospital? That's more like it!

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I think lots of you are being too hard. They had a lot to do in this episode - introduce the characters, give the doctor a bit of backstory, transform Rose from fluff to assistant and have an adventure. Yes, it felt cramped but i think subsequent episodes are going to be much better paced. I even thought the SFX were OK

By the way, I thought the doctor had probably recently regenerated but I don't think this was necessarily the first time he'd looked in a mirror - how many times do you keep looking in the miror when you've had a new haircut?

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