Forza

[Dimahoo]

Does anyway play this from an external view?

Its one of those games where you can (unlike GT4)

I've switched off all car aids, but Some of the tracks don't have any markings at all.

[dan_tm]

The thing that could potentially bother me online is having all the aids turned on in a room, n00bs (or pros ) using that as an advantage.

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According to the GameSpot review the host has to option to turn off everyones assitsts (or just the individual ones they don't want people using) except the racing line one, which according to the review is a great hep at first but after you have got used to the handling and breaking/cornering points it actually slows you down.

All sounding great so far

[RFT]

Are the race cars moddable or paintable? (the porsche 911 GT3-RS for example, or the 956)

It seems a bit of a shame if not (though understandable from a licensing POV)

those engine swaps look like fun. MX-5 with an FD Rx-7 motor, Celica-powered Elan, Skyline-powered silvias, 911RS with a 993GT3 motor.

[mr_rmg]

Hello,

Just for info, my friend is an M$ developer who worked on the AI (Drivatars) for this game. 

I spoke to him the other day and said that the demo was getting negged on forums. 

He said that the devs were aware of this and that they were forced to release an early build for the demo. 

He said that the version he has now been given is much nearer to Gold and that it is a *lot* better. 

Just so you know.....

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So, any more thoughts on the AI / Drivatars?

my mate is well pleased with the response from the gaming press

In case you interested, his group - The Machine Learning & Perception team at the M$ research lab in cambridge have a website dedicated to the Drivatars and what they do:

www.drivatar.com

The website is crap (and I told him that ;-) but the content is quite interesting....

--

rmg.

[Jonster]

It's seems stupid they don't show in link-up. Surely they must be in for LIVE, surely?

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Maybe they didn't want anything offensive getting through, which is why (I assumed) the custom licence plates were turned off on PGR2 online.

[spaceyjase]

Ahh, the info I wanted is missing at the moment

I've been through the training and I wonder how it was calculated (I should rtfm but I don't have it yet ). After the initial race, the stats were good (I managed 100% on a curved bend) but the following races lowered this percentage. However, I deliberately slowed a corner until the 'line' was green and kept it right in the middle of the screen (assuming a good line = higher percentage) but ended up with like 50% or something. My assumption is wrong, could be speed related too.

Some unconventional but fast lines seemed to produce better results too, shaving seconds off my time so that could also play into it. I will say the scores, while great for tracking the performance, didn't seem to matter that much in a race. A quick observation and Mr. Gacy (my drivatar) was very close to my style of racing.

So, and I've just realised this myself, a good drivatar is one that races as close to you as possible, not a stats whore

edit: From the site... (d'oh!)

Q) Sometimes the suggested line is red for a short length when I don’t need to brake?

A) Not to worry, you’ll learn that there are a few shortcomings in the intelligence of the "suggested line" but on the whole it is pretty damned accurate. In particular, the suggested line is deliberately not the "best" line, since it intended to be relatively easy for non-expert drivers to follow. Because of that, the speeds associated with it may be slower than those attainable for the "faster" line that you may be driving. Learn the few spots where the suggested line is overly-conservative and live with it.

[Distinct muttering]

So, any more thoughts on the AI / Drivatars?

my mate is well pleased with the response from the gaming press 

In case you interested, his group - The Machine Learning & Perception team at the M$ research lab in cambridge have a website dedicated to the Drivatars and what they do:

www.drivatar.com

The website is crap (and I told him that ;-) but the content is quite interesting....

--

rmg.

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I havent tried the drivatars yet, as it seems to be useless through what I understand. Why would I want the computer to drive for me? I just thought it was for lazy people so they could unlock stuff.

Does it do something else, should I be interested in it?

[mr_rmg]

I havent tried the drivatars yet, as it seems to be useless through what I understand.  Why would I want the computer to drive for me?  I just thought it was for lazy people so they could unlock stuff.

Does it do something else, should I be interested in it?

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Depends on what floats your boat I suppose

From the website:

The Drivatar – what is it?

We’d suggest you think of your Drivatar as a clone of yourself. It is a replicant, a Driving Avatar made to your very own recipe. You teach it to drive like you do and you can keep on training it until it reaches the dizzy heights of perfection. Well, as perfect as you can make it that is. Drivatars are rather like your own culinary concoctions, they’re only as good as you are and whilst you may have followed the recipe from the TV-chef-of-the-moment’s new book to the letter, that Moroccan-lamb-served-on-a-bed-of-organic-rice-and-sunflower-seeds will always have your own unique slant on the theme. Drive erratically, braking and apexing too late and so will your Drivatar. Drive consistently with early braking, fast apexing and fast corner exit and so will your Drivatar. It really is a realistic model of your own driving skills.

Why create a Drivatar? What will it do for me?

What is it for? Well aside from being a really interesting scientific problem (and hopefully solution J) for "research" , it’s a novel addition to the gameplay of Forza. For one thing, all those computer opponents in "Career" and "Arcade" races are Drivatars that were pre-trained by computer – that’s one of the reasons why they drive far more realistically than typically seen in racing games. For another, you can employ (for a fee, of course) Drivatars to race for you in any Career Races that you’re having trouble with or don’t want to bother with (did I hear someone say "endurance"?). You can even pursue an entire career via your Drivatar. For some real fun though you can create a custom race in Head to Head using any combination of cars, tracks and drivers – including friends' Drivatars, your own Drivatars and the standard AI opponents in the game.

Hopefully we’ve convinced you that training a Drivatar is worthwhile, so let’s take a look in more detail at how it is done…

SO there you go!

Im thinking along the lines of, you train up yours, I train up mine, we let THEM do the racing while we drink beer and eat pizza.

OMG - The future of videogaming, not actually playing yourself!

I wonder if you can host online games and just let your L33t Drivatar race, just to prove how good you are!

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rmg.

[spaceyjase]

Did he happen to mention if you could take Drivatars online? You can use other via memory card

[Distinct muttering]

Depends on what floats your boat I suppose 

From the website:

SO there you go!

Im thinking along the lines of, you train up yours, I train up mine, we let THEM do the racing while we drink beer and eat pizza. 

OMG - The future of videogaming, not actually playing yourself! 

I wonder if you can host online games and just let your L33t Drivatar race, just to prove how good you are!

--

rmg.

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Sounds like a commendable look into driving AI. The AI in game certainly seems to be streets ahead of other similar "simulator" racers.

Not sure how happy I would be leaving the driving to my cloned self though. Im having too much fun racing them myself B) Will have a look though.

[mr_rmg]

Did he happen to mention if you could take Drivatars online?  You can use other via memory card

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Hmm, now you mention it he diddnt.

A lot of info is here:

http://www.research.microsoft.com/mlp/forza/FMD_manual.htm

quoted

Using Drivatars in Forza

Drivatar Lessons | Statistics | Observe | Free Training | Head-to-Head | Career Races | Maturity | Copying Drivatars

Introduction

Remember the days when games came with nice big manuals you could read at bedtime? The pamphlets we all get these days are OK and just about fit-for-purpose, but they don’t really tell us as much as we’d like. That’s why we’ve put together this web-site, and why we've written this section in particular. Consider this page an extension to the unavoidably concise Drivatar section in the Forza Motorsport manual.

The Drivatar – what is it?

We’d suggest you think of your Drivatar as a clone of yourself. It is a replicant, a Driving Avatar made to your very own recipe. You teach it to drive like you do and you can keep on training it until it reaches the dizzy heights of perfection. Well, as perfect as you can make it that is. Drivatars are rather like your own culinary concoctions, they’re only as good as you are and whilst you may have followed the recipe from the TV-chef-of-the-moment’s new book to the letter, that Moroccan-lamb-served-on-a-bed-of-organic-rice-and-sunflower-seeds will always have your own unique slant on the theme. Drive erratically, braking and apexing too late and so will your Drivatar. Drive consistently with early braking, fast apexing and fast corner exit and so will your Drivatar. It really is a realistic model of your own driving skills.

Why create a Drivatar? What will it do for me?

What is it for? Well aside from being a really interesting scientific problem (and hopefully solution J) for "research" , it’s a novel addition to the gameplay of Forza. For one thing, all those computer opponents in "Career" and "Arcade" races are Drivatars that were pre-trained by computer – that’s one of the reasons why they drive far more realistically than typically seen in racing games. For another, you can employ (for a fee, of course) Drivatars to race for you in any Career Races that you’re having trouble with or don’t want to bother with (did I hear someone say "endurance"?). You can even pursue an entire career via your Drivatar. For some real fun though you can create a custom race in Head to Head using any combination of cars, tracks and drivers – including friends' Drivatars, your own Drivatars and the standard AI opponents in the game.

Hopefully we’ve convinced you that training a Drivatar is worthwhile, so let’s take a look in more detail at how it is done…

Drivatar Lessons

When you first create your Drivatar, he/she knows nothing about your driving style and you need to take time to nurture your protegé. Now obviously it would be nice to take it down to the local pub (bar) and spend an evening discussing your racing philosophy but the easiest way to teach it to race like you is to invite it into the passenger seat of a few different cars and let him/her observe how you drive.

Forza’s approach to getting you to spend quality time with your Drivatar is to impose five lessons on you. (Hey! that’s a lot less than some other driving games J). You get to take your Drivatar out in a cunningly selected variety of cars on an even more cunningly selected variety of tracks. In fact, if you’re itching to test drive a Class R car and haven’t had time to unlock everything in the game yet then this is a sly backdoor into achieving just that since you’ll get to drive an Audi R8 in lesson five! The lessons are devilishly cunning because they shoe-horn you into teaching your Drivatar how you drive a representative sample of corner types that appear throughout the game. These corner types are listed in the manual for you and once you’ve completed all five lessons you’ll have taught your Drivatar how you drive each and every corner type in the game (with the exception of one – see Free Training to fix that). More importantly, you will have taught your Drivatar some key characteristics of your driving style:

Variety – how consistent are you?

Line – how smoothly do you guide the car around corners and through combinations thereof?

Entry speeds and braking points – how early do you brake before entering a corner? Are you conservative? Reckless?

Apex speeds and positions – how close are you to the apex of the corner and how fast are you going?

Exit Speeds and acceleration points – when do you start accelerating as you leave a corner and how well have you maintained your speed around the corner?

We use all this information to learn a model of your driving characteristics and that model is what drives the Drivatar.

The lessons are a pretty good way of learning some of the tracks and how to drive; as well as the route to training your Drivatar. You’ve got full ghost access, you’ve got the Scores (see below), the lap times, best laps – a veritable cornucopia of information on how to improve your driving. Think of the lessons as a cunningly disguised "driving school" as well as the implementation of what we'd claim is the most sophisticated machine learning ever seen in a video game!

You'll have seen that each lesson is three laps. There’s a reason for that – we need a representative sample of your driving style to learn a driving model and three laps is pretty much the minimum useful amount of data. Ideally, to build a better model of your driving we need more, and indeed if you train further on the same track, your Drivatar will make use of that additional data.

You can quit a lesson early and depending on how many laps you have completed, there are two possible outcomes:

You will be informed that you have provided insufficient data for your Drivatar to learn anything useful, and your Drivatar will not be updated. Typically you need to complete a little more than one lap of good (i.e. mainly on the track!) driving, though the game is a little less strict on the Nurburgring.

You will have contributed to the Drivatar’s training (your data will be assimilated by the model), but you won’t have completed the lesson and you’ll have to try again at another time.

Once you have completed a lesson (i.e. the full 3 laps) a giant blue tick mark will scythe through the lesson icon – this doesn’t mean you can’t do it again though: feel free to repeat and improve.

Once you have completed all five lessons your Drivatar is considered “Mature”. That’s the term we use to indicate that it has had sufficient training to reproduce a reasonable approximation to your driving. You shouldn’t consider your Drivatar complete at this stage (far from it!) – that’s why we use the term “mature”, it indicates it has progressed from its enthusiastic teens and into the first flush of adulthood. You’ll now see some more menu options unlocked: Free Training and Head to Head. You’ll also now be able to employ your Drivatar to race for you in Career Races should you so choose. More on this later. Coming back to the point on completing your Drivatar, we should point out that a Drivatar is never really “complete”, it can always be improved. You’d be surprised how much your own style progresses as you progress through the game and how you make subtle changes in different cars and on different tracks. Drivatars are like a partner, you need to give them constant love and attention to get the best from them. You can skip the chocolates though.

Scores on the Doors

As covered in the printed Forza manual, as you train your Drivatar, you are graded on how well you drive certain types of corner on each track. Let’s talk a little more about those scores.

When you create your Drivatar you’ll see a menu option on the Drivatar menu called “Statistics”. If you visit this screen before you begin the lessons you’ll see three tabs.

A "Career" summary page showing "Distance Driven" etc. Note (slightly confusingly!) that all these statistics here refer to Career Races driven by that Drivatar not the amount of driving during training.

A summary of the Drivatar's turn abilities. This is specific to the training.

A summary of the Drivatar's ability in various car categories, again specific to training.

The second tab is probably the most important – it lists all the corner types categorised in the game ("Kink", "Constant Radius" etc) along with your current average scores. These are all 0% to begin with. As you train your Drivatar, either via "Drivatar Lessons" or "Free Training", these scores will change. They are the current values of the running averages of the scores you have achieved for each corner type and will change rapidly to begin with but, being averages, obviously stabilise the more you drive. Let’s take a look at one of those score messages you might see in the game:

“Constant Radius 73% (+5)”

Obviously the first part refers to the corner you just drove around. The “73%” refers to the absolute score you just achieved for that single corner. The “(+5)” refers to the fact that, compared to your score at the start of the race, you improved by a margin of 5%. Your previous score of record therefore was 68% - though the messages are rounded to the nearest whole number.

The 73% is calculated based on a number of key characteristics concerning the line and speed maintained through the corner. You can find out exactly how this is calculated on the Drivatar Secrets page (at some later date).

Now, the talented drivers amongst you will rightly be shouting “but I drove that corner perfectly and didn't get 100%”. That’s a fair comment, since no scoring system can be perfect, and Drivatar Statistics are no exception. But you’ll also appreciate that for the majority of people for the majority of the time it gives a very reasonable and meaningful score. If you are genuinely talented (and that doesn’t mean 50% of you!!) then you shouldn’t get too hung up on your scores. In particular, please note that the scores are only indicative. The Drivatar itself isn’t concerned with the scores; it is concerned with your speed and position at every point on the track and of course your consistency. The scores are just a useful indicator of how well most people are doing and do not directly affect how well your Drivatar will perform in races.

Note that if, at the end of a lesson or some free training, you choose to "discard" your efforts, your statistics will not be updated.

Observe

Once you have completed at least one Drivatar lesson, entering "Observe" mode allows you to watch your Drivatar drive on any of the five tracks where the lessons have been completed. This allows you to assess you Drivatar's performance and perhaps see how your own driving might be improved to take advantage of any traits you observe in your Drivatar. Once you have completed all the lessons and your Drivatar is mature you’ll be able to watch him/her drive at any circuit in the game (another cunning back door – this time to checking out the locked tracks in the game) in any car in your garage. This is where you can start to appreciate the technology behind the Drivatar. The Drivatar is not a simple recording of your driving specific to the track and car combination from the lessons. Instead, your Drivatar infers a probabilistic model of your "style" of driving in general by monitoring your line with respect to the geometry of the track, and your speed with respect to the capabilities of your car.

Think about it ... you’ve trained your Drivatar to drive on 5 different tracks in 5 particular cars and now it is able to drive all the tracks in the game in all cars – though effectively it has never experienced them before. If you think that’s simple, think again! What has just happened is that you have trained a computer how to drive any track in the game just by driving 3 laps of 5 tracks. In "machine learning" terms that’s almost miraculous! In order to train a computer how to do the most menial of real world tasks we typically have to provide hundreds of thousands of examples of data – consequently we feel quite smug at what we’ve achieved on a mere gaming console (albeit the powerhouse of the current generation!).

Free Training

Once you have completed all the Drivatar lessons and your Drivatar is mature, "Free Training" is unlocked and you are able to continue training it on any track in the game using any car in your garage. This is where your Drivatar can start to really work for you. The more you train it, the better it will get.

The most noticeable change will come if you train it at new tracks it hasn’t raced before. After the lessons are complete, try observing your Drivatar at Laguna Seca for example. It’ll do OK, perhaps as well or better than you would when driving that circuit for the very first time. But, of course, the expert driver requires specific knowledge and experience of the idiosyncrasies of a given track to really perform well and the infamous “corkscrew” at Laguna Seca is a great example. Make a note of the best observed lap time your Drivatar achieves at Laguna Seca and then do some training there. Repeat the observe experiment and, assuming a reasonable level of competence on the part of the trainer J, you should see the best lap time improve significantly. To get the very best from your Drivatar, you really need to consider repeatedly adding to its training as you progress through the game and turn your attentions to specific cars and events. For example, your initial training at Tsukuba in the Ford Focus will allow your Drivatar to drive a Porsche GT3 there reasonably well but once you have progressed to that class of car in the game, you’ll really need to refresh the training to get the very best from your Drivatar at that level.

Also, Free Training is the place where you can update your Statistics and get scores for any corner type(s) not included in the tracks featured in the lessons.

Head to Head

Head to Head racing is easy to overlook in Forza given the vast swathes of arcade races, career races and online options open to you, but this is an innovative and exciting feature of the game. When was the last time you could completely customise a race to your precise requirements? Not only can you customise the track and the field of cars, you can personalise each and every driver. A great way to use the Head to Head races is to race your friends' Drivatars – simply get them to copy their Drivatar to a memory unit from the Xbox dashboard, and then copy it to your own console. Once on your Xbox hard disk, you can then race against it in Head to Head mode – how cool is that! Get a bunch of friends to all dump their Drivatars to your console and vice-versa and you can all continue to race against each other and learn each other’s lines and techniques without them being present (or on Xbox Live). In summary, you can specify races against:

Your currently selected Drivatar (which will be mature by default)

Any other mature Drivatars you may have created

Any other mature Drivatars created by other players (i.e. under other profiles) on your Xbox

Any mature Drivatars copied to your Xbox

Any of Forza's built-in AI Drivatar competitors, at "easy", "medium" or "hard" level

Head to Head is also a great way of learning where you can improve your own driving, simply configure a field of your own Drivatars in a mix of similarly specified cars and you can race against multiple versions of yourself and see where you can improve your lines or braking points by battling head to head against yourself. Or, for the ultimate personalised racing challenge, try racing your own Drivatar while giving them the benefit of a slightly faster car.

Career Races

This is where your Drivatar gets to work for you and you can reap some financial reward and game progress for your efforts. At the beginning of each career race, a pre-race “start” menu is presented to you. There you’ll see the tantalisingly labelled “Load Drivatar” option. Once you have one or more locally-trained mature Drivatars available for that profile on your Xbox you can use this option to enter a Drivatar into the race for you. By “locally-trained” we mean that the Drivatar has to have been created and trained on the Xbox you are using at that time. What we didn’t want to see were people using Drivatars trained by other people to unlock tracks and cars for them – in other words cheating! So, in summary, to be able to enter a Drivatar in a career race, it must be:

Mature

Created on that physical Xbox

Created and trained under the current profile

Once you’ve selected a valid Drivatar from the menu, you have hired your Drivatar to race for you in the selected career race. (you can subsequently "unload" your Drivatar if you change your mind). By default you will be presented with “Live TV” style coverage of the race once it starts. Remember, this isn’t a replay; this is now a “live” race with your Drivatar racing for you (and if you re-run the race, the outcome may be completely different). Watch your Drivatar battle with the opposition, observe where it is driving well or badly and learn from the experience. You can always use what you just learned to refresh your Drivatar's training at that race track and in the current car.

Once the race is complete, you’ll have to pay a proportion of any earnings to the Drivatar as its fee for risking life and limb for you but you’ll still earn some credits and reap the rewards of any unlocks or prize vehicles. You can look at how many credits your Drivatar has earned and other stats like how many races it has entered and won on the first tab in the Drivatar Statistics screen. We’ve tended to notice that Drivatars are pretty stingy with their earnings and tend not to spend them on anything other than pies, chips and mushy peas – though it has been rumoured that some trainers have managed to secure interest free loans for desirable wheels the Drivatar might want to drive for you.

Maturity

As noted earlier, when your Drivatar has completed all 5 lessons, he or she is considered to be "mature". The consequences of this are, in summary:

Free Training is unlocked.

Observe mode is expanded, in that you can now select from any track in the game, not just those tracks for which lessons have been completed.

Head to Head is unlocked.

Copying Drivatars From Xbox to Xbox

Any Drivatar created on your Xbox we term to be "local" (and we all know that the precious things are only for local people). However, you can copy other "non-local" Drivatars to use in the game. Using the Xbox "dashboard" you can copy any Drivatar from the Xbox hard disk to a memory unit. From there, it can be copied to any other Xbox where it may be used subject to these limitations:

A copied Drivatar may not be trained further. Drivatar Lessons and Free Training modes will be unavailable.

A copied Drivatar may not be employed to enter a Career Race.

The main point of copying a Drivatar is hopefully obvious: it is to race against him or her in a custom Head to Head race. If you like, you can also Observe a copied Drivatar and examine its Statistics.

I will ask him about Live

[SeanR]

Sounds like GT4 B-spec

[Mercury]

I hate this forum sometimes. I had decided not to buy Forza following the OXBM demo and now because of this thread I have ordered it.

[Distinct muttering]

Sounds like GT4 B-spec

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If GT4 B-spec was 20 times better than GT4, then yes, it does sound like it

[Distinct muttering]

Just read this bit in the gamespot review

When driving in first-person view, a handy rearview mirror makes spotting your stalking opponents easy. You'll also be able to use the right analog stick to look directly left, right, or behind, or at 45-degree angles both behind and in front of the car.

Aces! I never knew that, well cool! B)

[Distinct muttering]

More from the gamespot review, info for the online mode

We experienced smooth online play in our Forza online test sessions, seeing no slowdown and only a few cases of cars lag-sliding across the track. The number of options for online races is impressive--from setting the number of laps or damage type to determining whether tire wear, fuel consumption, or collision are enabled. The only thing missing is a setting to forbid use of the suggested line aid in online races. We would have liked to have seen the option to disable this feature, or perhaps disable it after the first lap of a race, if only to avoid people using it as a crutch for online races. Furthermore, a maximum of eight racers online seems a bit low, especially since older racers have managed to pack in more online opponents without negative performance effects. Finding a group of like-minded race fans online--people you know can be counted on for a solid race session after session--can be difficult. Forza attempts to address this by taking the concept of your friends list one step further with car clubs, which are the game's version of a clan. Establishing a car club is easy: you choose a name, nickname, a brief description, motto, Web site information, a logo...and you're all set. As president of your car club, you'll be able to recruit and promote new members in the hopes of building up a powerful group of drivers. If you have at least four members in your club, you'll be able to post times to the Xbox Live car club scoreboards. Your car club will have an overall ELO rating attached to it as well, and all members of the club will contribute to that rating (in ELO rating-enabled races that is), meaning every single member has a stake in the overall reputation of the club.

Forza places a huge emphasis on every car's individuality through features such as the rarity rating and powerful customization tools, which let you paint your car and/or add a massive number of vinyls and decals, creating, with a little patience, a car that will be unique and unlike any others. That individuality can be further celebrated by pitting your car against other players' cars online. The fun doesn't stop there, however, as Forza also lets you buy and sell cars in online trading sessions with friends and strangers alike. By setting up a "buy and sell" session, you can browse the collections of up to eight other players who agree to enter the lobby with you. You can't set the price at which you'd like to sell a particular car unfortunately; the price is automatically generated based on the rarity of the vehicle and the quality of upgrades it contains.

Im hyped about this game online. Car clubs sound ace! 4 v 4 online! B)

[mr_rmg]

Did he happen to mention if you could take Drivatars online?  You can use other via memory card

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His answer

No :-) That was deliberate for this release - you can copy them to a memory card and then to another xbox so that you can race against your "absent friend" but you can't swap via Live this time around. Nor can you use them in races on Live - though again we considered Drivatar leagues etc.

So thats a bummer But it sounds like they are already working on the 360 version

[Lazychu]

Well colour me very pleasantly suprised. It's actually really good, isn't it?

Unfortunately though, today it seems to like crashing before I've even finished a lap...every fucking race.

Lots of nice little ideas in this game like the racing line, turning off the assists for greater potential rewards and the way it shunts your car up a class if you upgrade it too much in order to keep up the challenge.

Shame I won't be able to play/trade online any time soon. It's gonna be huge on Live.

[Distinct muttering]

Well colour me very pleasantly suprised. It's actually really good, isn't it?

Unfortunately though, today it seems to like crashing before I've even finished a lap...every fucking race.

Lots of nice little ideas in this game like the racing line, turning off the assists for greater  potential rewards and the way it shunts your car up a class if you upgrade it too much in order to keep up the challenge.

Shame I won't be able to play/trade online any time soon. It's gonna be huge on Live.

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Are you talking about the game, or your car? I honestly cant tell. For the record the game has never crashed on me, or even shown a slight glitch.

[Eighthours]

Im hyped about this game online.  Car clubs sound ace!  4 v 4 online!  B)

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I hope they've left in enough options to make a "Cat and Mouse" championship realistic, in terms of balancing out the points. Being able to select the amount of points you get for a win would be great.

[dan_tm]

I wonder if you can do a Car Club clan match and set the stakes at the garage for each Club.

Win and you stand to gain 50,000,000 Cr worth of cars, lose and you're back to square one.

Would be cool

[Eighthours]

I wonder if you can do a Car Club clan match and set the stakes at the garage for each Club.

Win and you stand to gain 50,000,000 Cr worth of cars, lose and you're back to square one.

Would be cool

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Has it been confirmed that you can have your opponent's car as the stake for the race? That sounds great!!

[Lazychu]

Are you talking about the game, or your car?  I honestly cant tell.  For the record the game has never crashed on me, or even shown a slight glitch.

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The game (my driving isn't that bad ). It's just started to freeze constantly.

Soundslike it could be my Xbox or the HD at fault if no one else is having problems.

[Wickedkitten]

I wonder if you can do a Car Club clan match and set the stakes at the garage for each Club.

Win and you stand to gain 50,000,000 Cr worth of cars, lose and you're back to square one.

Would be cool

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I wouldn't be surprised if they had where you could do that to be honest.

[Distinct muttering]

I wonder if you can do a Car Club clan match and set the stakes at the garage for each Club.

Win and you stand to gain 50,000,000 Cr worth of cars, lose and you're back to square one.

Would be cool

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Racing for pink slips? COOL! B)

[Distinct muttering]

The game (my driving isn't that bad ). It's just started to freeze constantly.

Soundslike it could be my Xbox or the HD at fault if no one else is having problems.

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Sorry mate, but it must be I think. Runs sweetly for me.

Talking of which, I hope the loading times from disc are as fast as from the harddrive, its impressive how quickly you can go from boot up all the way into a race.

[Jonster]

I hate this forum sometimes. I had decided not to buy Forza following the OXBM demo and now because of this thread I have ordered it.

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Ditto that.

[spaceyjase]

Thanks for the replies, mr_rmg! B) Shame about Live but it is still a very cool feature, an insight into the game's AI. Everyone should give it a quick go, check out how your Drivatar races; you'll see all your weak-points

Look at you lot though, some of this stuff Sega GT 2k2 did perfectly. Shame about the actually racing mind, but there you go I can't wait to get home and play some more.

[sith]

This out today?

[Distinct muttering]

Is anyone driving using the manual gearbox?

I have all aids off and using the low in car view (ZZOOOOM!), but the thought of having to co-ordinate gear changes as well as all the other stuff to think about is filling me with fear. Should I go for it?

Also been thinking about how I can get some cool lettering on my car, straight edged letters will be a breeze as you can stretch out the squares. Im sure by adding a layer of a circle you can get most letters sorted. Coming soon my latest creation with "EAT IT" emblazoned along the side B)