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Captain Crunch
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I think spacebunny was being sarcastic. But, to be fair, I don't think I've heard a CCP dev say they *couldn't* do Trinity 2 on non-Vista/DX10 tech, just that they'd chosen to do it on that because they liked the way DX10 cards would work and it simplified the task of what is, after all, a relatively small bunch of devs and the choices they had to make between the kit of people who couldn't run New Eve and those who could:

"We discussed a lot how we could create a simple and meaningful delineation between the two versions and decided that this would be the cleanest way to do it - rather than a messy list of graphics cards and mumbo jumbo about pixel shader version x, vertex shader model y, etc."

So they just chose a clean cutoff point from which to develop the full-blown version of Trinity 2 (which is about more than just new textures, don't forget, and some upgraded graphics will make it down to 'Classic'). I'm not saying that I applaud their decision, but I can understand it, the same as I understand why they won't code the game for MacOS or Linux either.

The bastards.

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Typically I had planned to wake up early enough to change to a long skill, having just finished some or other industrial level 5. I woke up at 10:15.

:( (yet :lol:)*

Still, this DT was good for something. In my ennui, I booted up XBL for the first time in ages and got your Friends invite from sometime last year. You're added! Wahay!

I then booted up Halo 2, minced about with controls a bit, and turned the Xbox off with an involuntary 'pfft'. Man, I'm bored with regular gametype games.

.

..

...

Is it midnight yet?

*Why does his head shrink when he laughs? Faintly disturbing, is that.

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I played Halo 2 too and sucked a big one. It all moved so fast; my poor reflexes are space-conditioned now. Delivering FPS pwnage is a dim and distant memory.

PS I did set a long skill training as advised. I pity the foo' that's missing out on valuable training time.

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Yes, I was being sarcastic.

DX10 offers... well pretty much nothing, as far as I can see. Maybe Shader model 4.0 will allow hookers, and blackjack.

I read an interview with Mr.Gates today and he said that unlike its older brothers Win-Vista were made purely for gaming. I didnt know that, were quite impressed actually.

I guess that's why they took out all the useful features, winfs wouldn't help gaming.

I'm set for 5 days of downtime, so let's see how that works out.

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[01:09] <Daniel_Jackson> any way ive read the dev blog, sop they sayign we dont have to hacve vista systems to use the new graphic engins/

[01:09] <Daniel_Jackson> ?

[01:10] <Hehulk> we don't

[01:10] <Hehulk> it'll be a direct X 9 engine

[01:11] <Daniel_Jackson> so not a dx 10? like itr was mentioned in the EON Magazene

[01:11] <[sTAR]Zhainius> dx10

[01:11] <Hehulk> DX 10 IS going to be comming, but that'll be a completly seperate client

Dev's have been nattering a bit on the eve IRC chan.

shots we've seen so far are the improved DX9 engine with some better textures and shaders.

Then the DX10 with HDR/normal mapping etc and obv insane comp spec is gonna be a different client.

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[01:09] <Daniel_Jackson> any way ive read the dev blog, sop they sayign we dont have to hacve vista systems to use the new graphic engins/

[01:09] <Daniel_Jackson> ?

[01:10] <Hehulk> we don't

[01:10] <Hehulk> it'll be a direct X 9 engine

[01:11] <Daniel_Jackson> so not a dx 10? like itr was mentioned in the EON Magazene

[01:11] <[sTAR]Zhainius> dx10

[01:11] <Hehulk> DX 10 IS going to be comming, but that'll be a completly seperate client

Dev's have been nattering a bit on the eve IRC chan.

shots we've seen so far are the improved DX9 engine with some better textures and shaders.

Then the DX10 with HDR/normal mapping etc and obv insane comp spec is gonna be a different client.

Daniel Jackson's grammar and spelling sure have suffered since he became a non-corporeal lifeform.

The thing is though, the same criticism applies here. HDR and normal mapping can be done now, in DX9.

I'm only vaguely angry about this because DX10 will be vista only, and I certainly don't plan on moving my games machine from windows 2k, ever.

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Sure, Owain, the graphics in Eve Classic will be updated, and that will presumably include new textures, amongst other stuff - we've already been told this. But the full new Trinity 2 is only for Vista and DX10. It's hard to say what the differences between the updated 'Classic' client and Eve Vista will be, but clearly they'll have to be significant or there's no point in CCP putting all that dev time into the Vista-only version. My fear is that, if stuff that potentially affects the functionality of the game (e.g. the uberzoommap) only makes it into the Vista version, we have a two-tier game going on. Impossible to judge right now, but it does give me cause for concern.

Conversely, spacebunny, I don't think anyone has said that you can't do the texture stuff in DX9; but Trinity 2 isn't just about that. Although it *may* well be possible to cram as much of all the new effects/textures/features into DX9 cards as possible, the devs obviously feel they can't do all they have planned on the majority of current cards without impacting on performance in other areas - and people who've played Eve a while will tell you just how aggravating it can be when performance suffers, for both players and the devs who are swamped with complaints from customers who petition the loss of a ship due to lag and lay the blame at CCP's feet. So they've decided to restrict the full Trin 2 to DX10 cards as (and I don't know whether this is right or not) they reckon that'll enable them to ensure that it works adequately, without too much strain on a PC, across the board (for DX10 users). Whether that's true or not, and whether they could have made it work on every DX9 card without introducing grey areas for some users who might or might not suffer bad performance hits depending on hardware specs, I really don't know. But I doubt any of us will know until we've seen exactly what the new engine does.

And even then I won't, as I haven't a technical bone in my body these days. Well, not of the gfx card variety.

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Conversely, spacebunny, I don't think anyone has said that you can't do the texture stuff in DX9; but Trinity 2 isn't just about that. Although it *may* well be possible to cram as much of all the new effects/textures/features into DX9 cards as possible, the devs obviously feel they can't do all they have planned on the majority of current cards without impacting on performance in other areas - and people who've played Eve a while will tell you just how aggravating it can be when performance suffers, for both players and the devs who are swamped with complaints from customers who petition the loss of a ship due to lag and lay the blame at CCP's feet. So they've decided to restrict the full Trin 2 to DX10 cards as (and I don't know whether this is right or not) they reckon that'll enable them to ensure that it works adequately, without too much strain on a PC, across the board (for DX10 users). Whether that's true or not, and whether they could have made it work on every DX9 card without introducing grey areas for some users who might or might not suffer bad performance hits depending on hardware specs, I really don't know. But I doubt any of us will know until we've seen exactly what the new engine does.

I can't imagine them doing anything so amazing that it would have problems with current cards, but let's just assume that it will be insanely amazing.

Their statements about a consistent user experience are tosh, "Direct X 10 Card" is pretty meaningless in terms of performance and user experience. Consider the intel integrated graphics chipsets, the latest one is supposedly direct x 9 feature complete (despite how all vertex and t&l operations are emulated in software), it is however INCREDIBLY slow, and unless things have changed it still has graphical glitches in eve, besides running it at 23fps or something. There will without a doubt be a similar product that is "directx 10 feature complete". Also, the low end cards of the next generation will be similar in performance to the cheaper mid range cards of this generation.

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If what you're saying is that PC hardware differences mean there'll be an inconsitent user experience across different machines regardless of whether they're all using DX9 or DX10, I'd have to agree; it'd be impossible not to.

But I guess CCP felt that what they wanted to achieve would stretch performance and tax hardware far further (a perfectly reasonable argument), and that trying to tailor the exact same client to both the bottom end DX9 setups and the top end DX10 ones would basically break the game for low end users far more than if they just stretched it across across the spectrum of DX10 card specs. But that's probably not the main point.

Which is, as quoted above: "We discussed a lot how we could create a simple and meaningful delineation between the two versions and decided that this would be the cleanest way to do it - rather than a messy list of graphics cards and mumbo jumbo about pixel shader version x, vertex shader model y, etc." As I said, I'm not remotely technical, nor am I in any way keen on Windows Vista or DX10 in themselves; but with a relatively small dev team trying to minimise hassle and maximise the move forward, I don't see why choosing this particular cutoff point from which which to develop ver 2 of the client doesn't make sense. If they want to make the next client have a longevity measured in years and be graphically top-notch, whilst having to support as little legacy kit as possible, doesn't a cutoff make some sort of sense? I mean, if they kept trying to ram the client into my machine, my gfx card, my OS, could that client possibly be a good looking in 7 years' time as it would be if they abandoned me?

Most games don't get played nonstop for a decade whilst striving to be cutting edge all the while (both being Eve's aims, of course), and fewer still of those are the first game of a small Icelandic dev team with fairly limited resources to match those grand ambitions.

Anyway, meh. They're still a bunch of bastards. It's 3 a.m. now and I want my fucking game online.

Then I can go to bed.

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I basically think it's stupid, the only reason I can think of for making it DX10 only is to push adoption of vista.

This hasn't been an issue before, windows 98 has a version of directx 9c, it shipped with 5?

If it wasn't for the "classic" client it would be business suicide, it just seems a bit gar that they're saying you have to upgrade your OS to get all the future pretty, but I guess the very dedicated players won't think much of dropping 200 quid.

Also, if you take "rather than a messy list of graphics cards and mumbo jumbo about pixel shader version x, vertex shader model y, etc." to its logical extreme you'd be wanting to release it on xbox360 ;), the core system is pretty close in price to a new boxed copy of windows.

EDIT: looking at it a boxed retail copy of windows XP pro is actually 244UKP! Shocking.

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Well, I think there are reasons for making DX10 the base point for the new client, and pushing Vista isn't among them. I don't like the decision, but I can understand it.

You're right that it would be business suicide to do this without maintaining the 'classic' client; but CCP is maintaining that, so the point is moot. And whilst I don't think logical extremes come into it, I couldn't see Eve working so well (or for as long, or with as many subbers) on 360 as it does on PC. That probably would be business suicide, too.

I can understand your not wanting to have to buy Vista and a DX10 card just to play the new client. I don't want to either. But you and I can keep playing the 'classic' client and, as long as we're not disadvantaged by that, as long as there's no loss of functionality, I'll be mildly irritated rather than outraged.

Many people will 'upgrade' to Vista and DX10 at some point anyway, regardless of the the Eve client; but I'm sure you're right in assuming that some dedicated Eve players will want to get in on the eyecandy action straightaway. The thing is, I bought a whole PC basically just to run Eve. And I detest PCs. Sam Arran did the same, and he hasn't got much time for them either. So the notion of someone dropping £200-300 for an 'upgrade' to a machine they in all likelihood don't actually detest, and probably use for other things as well as Eve, doesn't strike me as extreme financial folly. If ardent MacOS people can swallow it and buy a whole Wintel rig just to play at all, then I'm not really too upset (although I still don't 'like' it) about existing Win users having to get a new OS and gfx card in order to play the uber version, whilst still being able to play the old one on their old kit if they like.

It's perfectly possible to port the game to MacOS. CCP make it Win-only. It's now going to have a graphically improved version that runs only on DX10 cards. And I'm sure it won't be the last game that requires DX10 to run. Although I might not like the decisions CCP make with their platform/kit choice (and I don't), I can accept they have sound business reasons for devoting their dev time thus; and I certainly wouldn't call them 'stupid' for it.

I'd call them a right bunch of cunts. Just not stupid ones.

4:15 now...*yawn*. Come on, you feckless bunch. Now, if the game ran on OSX servers this'd never have happened...

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Bah! Heavy missile level 3 finished 08.00-ish gmt.....yesturday!

First time I have missed skilltime in over a year :) , back to Minmatar cruiser lv3 then.

edit :

They were also proud of the fact the average age of their players are 27. That means fewer kids and a very tight community. EVE Online is CCP's only product, and is only available via digital distribution. It's a very different way to run a company, but with everything riding on one game they give all their attention to that one product. It shows in everything they do, from the print magazine EON to the comfortable and friendly atmosphere in their booth.

Pretty cool.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2006/5/12/3939

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Sam - I don't know if you're on tonight and still doing stuff in Verge, but I have a shedload of Angel Palladium tags here that open the extra gate in Angel Extravaganza lvl 3. So if you're still testing ships in lvl 3s and want a crack at the BS and company through that gate to see how the ships do against a single BS, give me a shout and I'll bring some over.

EDIT: Oveur said the average age was 28 just a while back.

Oh noes - they're getting younger! It's a sellout by CCP to make it teh kiddiez game!

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Jesus! The average age has now gone down to 25 within minutes of the shock release of new screenshots depicting planetary flight that should make it into the expansion after Kali!

:D

:D

(And here's the planet for those who don't have Vista.)

EDITED with new non-bastard-IGN-Nazi linkage for less funny pics that drain the last dregs of already piss-weak humour from this aborted foetus of a post.

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