What Is Mature Gaming?

[Dimahoo]

But i think that games do exist that do stimulate, whilst remaining mature.

Just look to the PC (and Amiga). Theres loads.

I mean, they're not all out action but thats irrelvent.

Look at Civilisation or Sim City. They're mature, yet have no sex at all.

Take GTA. It contains mature material, yet is squarely aimed at 16 year olds, even with a certification.

Now look at The Getaway, a worse game, but programmed in such a way that it won't really appeal to everyone and is far darker in tone.

[Ktw]

In the same way film-making started out exploiting the most obvious aspects of showing a film to people (a moving image was enough in itelf) so most 'adult' or 'mature' video games rarely exploit anything other than the very basic thrills of sex and violence.

I think the best comparisons to early film would be early games, such as Spacewar or Pong. Early movies simply used the basic strength of the medium, ie moving images. Early games used interaction in its very basic form.

"Adult" games that rely on sex and violence is really the same thing as most Hollywood movies. Cheap thrills, appealing mostly to adolescents.

Surely we're going to see some development in this area other than improved graphics and more and more intuitive controllers (or total lack thereof)?  Having said that, perhaps it won't be until we have removed the intermediary (the controller) that more complex avenues will be explored.

Yes, but I do believe that there is always a risk of turning games into something they're not. The more complex the theme, the harder it will be to keep the game fun. Would it really be interesting to play the gaming equivalent of, say, Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow or Kieslowski's Trois Couleurs: Rouge?

[tiedtiger]

Thoughts, examples?

It has everything to do with subject matter.

[Jack]

It's all about the content. Grim Fandango is probably one of the most mature games I've ever played (with the exception of two utter bastards of puzzles), because of the perfect characterisation, locale designs, music, and voice acting. The script alone is sheer genius.

[Dimahoo]

It has everything to do with subject matter.

Like....

GTA is not as matured as, say, Getaway but the subject matter is similar.

You can have any genres and have one appeal to kids and one adults.

Racing games would be a good example :

Loney Tunes racing and GT4

Ace Combat 4 and MS Flight Sim

etc.

[tiedtiger]

It has everything to do with subject matter.

Like....

GTA is not as matured as, say, Getaway but the subject matter is similar.

You can have any genres and have one appeal to kids and one adults.

Racing games would be a good example :

Loney Tunes racing and GT4

Ace Combat 4 and MS Flight Sim

etc.

... not quite.

GTA and The Getaway are certainly aimed at older audiences, much like Gran Turismo is versus Mariok Kart, but these games are not more "mature" than each other. They are the same sorts of game, but in different skins.

Maturity means that games would have a certain ... intelligent or observant dimension above and beyond the straightforward action that they comprise. There were a few games, more in the past, like Grim Fandango and so on, that flirted with this a bit, and there are some more interesting examples out in the mod community of people trying to use game engines for more than just fun.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the maturity kick is the point at which games get serious or artistic or whatever. There is precious little of this around at the moment. Rez and Ico, it could be argued, touch on it, which is perhaps why they've become darlings of a certain set (of which I would claim membership), but it is very much the fashion in gaming to be conservative rather than experimental in these regards, and instead to focus on the non-threatening, non-exploratory, and the immature in that sense.

[mechamonkey]

Point and click adventures generally mature right , things like Broken Sword, Gabriel Knight, Myst, Syberia for example.

[JedEvangelion]

Rez and Ico, it could be argued, touch on it

I was wondering when someone would mention Rez and Ico. Definitely. Ico is the example I always give of a mature game. It doesn't talk down to the player and it handles the relationship between the protagonists in a sensitive and endearing way. It also doesn't feature much in the way of empowerment for the player, which I always find makes a game seem quite immature. I could imagine ICO with power-ups for the sword, special acrobatic moves etc, but that to me just panders to the shortened-attention-spans and teenage empowerment-fantasies that characterise most games.

[Ktw]

Point and click adventures generally mature right , things like Broken Sword, Gabriel Knight, Myst, Syberia for example.

Yes, but again this is only because of the way in which they treat the subject matter. As far as the general theme goes they're still pretty formulaic.

[linkster]

I was wondering when someone would mention Rez and Ico. Definitely. Ico is the example I always give of a mature game. It doesn't talk down to the player and it handles the relationship between the protagonists in a sensitive and endearing way. It also doesn't feature much in the way of empowerment for the player, which I always find makes a game seem quite immature. I could imagine ICO with power-ups for the sword, special acrobatic moves etc, but that to me just panders to the shortened-attention-spans and teenage empowerment-fantasies that characterise most games.

As was I, but only because I suspected it'd be when the thread started to go on a downward spiral

So far as I'm concerned, arguing the case for maturity above and beyond the legal definition is like arguing the case for art, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[JedEvangelion]

So far as I'm concerned, arguing the case for maturity above and beyond the legal definition is like arguing the case for art, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Of course. That's a given.

But that level of argument is surely infinitely more interesting than answering the question of 'What Is Mature Gaming' with just the legal definition?

This IS a forum after all. Are we here to propogate interesting debate or are we here to trot out stock answers to stock questions?

[linkster]

Of course. That's a given.

But that level of argument is surely infinitely more interesting than answering the question of 'What Is Mature Gaming' with just the legal definition?

This IS a forum after all. Are we here to propogate interesting debate or are we here to trot out stock answers to stock questions?

I don't think it's too much to ask to have someone actually define what is meant by mature before having a discussion about it.

But then I guess I've just seen this debate too many times, particularly concerning those two games. The art one I leave well alone. The maturity one - well, like I said.

[JedEvangelion]

Bah, this is silly.

We're discussing the issue of Mature Gaming in order to answer the question 'What is Mature Gaming'. If we could define it first we wouldn't have any need to discuss it.

[tiedtiger]

I was wondering when someone would mention Rez and Ico. Definitely. Ico is the example I always give of a mature game. It doesn't talk down to the player and it handles the relationship between the protagonists in a sensitive and endearing way. It also doesn't feature much in the way of empowerment for the player, which I always find makes a game seem quite immature. I could imagine ICO with power-ups for the sword, special acrobatic moves etc, but that to me just panders to the shortened-attention-spans and teenage empowerment-fantasies that characterise most games.

Well with Ico, I was thinking more about how it touches on the subject of child abuse (sorta).

[SM47]

Being mature is overrated anyway.

Bums etc!

[a big boy]

"Mature gaming" is, above all, not caring about mature gaming.

[Gorf King]

There's no such thing as a 'mature' game. Unless it's one that's been around for a long time and has evolved and weathered the vagaries of fashion.

A good game's audience, OTOH, runs across the board (age-wise). Chess, Football, Tetris. Culturally, though, videogames tend to appeal right now and in general to those who've grown up with them - which is still a pretty restricted group ATM. But this is changing, and I can imagine certain forum members still turning to both (something like) Mario 64 and GTA when they're...erm...64, as in the Beatles' song, just as grannies might love animated Pixar films and black and white gangster films alike.

There's no 'maturity' in this, there's just taste. Intellectual content, difficulty of accessibility and gameplay, length, aesthetics, and other factors are and will be defining factors in which games appeal to which players. But there's no checklist for a 'mature' game, in the same way that there isn't necessarily one for a film, a book, or indeed any game other than a video one. The medium's immature, but the content is (or should be) as timeless as any other form of game (play) - or even of entertainment. There's depth, there's shallowness, there's ease, there's difficulty. The choices and the appeals of each depend upon the person experiencing the game, but not primarily on any intrinsic 'maturity' in the game. There's no such thing.

(What's the more mature - Spirited Away or Die Hard? The Hobbit or a Jeffrey Archer novel? Mario 64 or Halo? Answers on a postcard to someone who cares.)

[El Geet]

There's no such thing as a 'mature' game. Unless it's one that's been around for a long time and has evolved and weathered the vagaries of fashion.

A good game's audience, OTOH, runs across the board (age-wise). Chess, Football, Tetris. Culturally, though, videogames tend to appeal right now and in general to those who've grown up with them - which is still a pretty restricted group ATM. But this is changing, and I can imagine certain forum members still turning to both (something like) Mario 64 and GTA when they're...erm...64, as in the Beatles' song, just as grannies might love animated Pixar films and black and white gangster films alike.

There's no 'maturity' in this, there's just taste. Intellectual content, difficulty of accessibility and gameplay, length, aesthetics, and other factors are and will be defining factors in which games appeal to which players. But there's no checklist for a 'mature' game, in the same way that there isn't necessarily one for a film, a book, or indeed any game other than a video one. The medium's immature, but the content is (or should be) as timeless as any other form of game (play) - or even of entertainment. There's depth, there's shallowness, there's ease, there's difficulty. The choices and the appeals of each depend upon the person experiencing the game, but not primarily on any intrinsic 'maturity' in the game. There's no such thing.

(What's the more mature - Spirited Away or Die Hard? The Hobbit or a Jeffrey Archer novel? Mario 64 or Halo? Answers on a postcard to someone who cares.)

If you (and Linkster) read my response to Linkster's question as to the definition of mature you may know what I'm referring to.

As I said, for 'maturity', read appealing to the more intellectual part of a person's mind. Not for one minute do I disagree with what you're saying but I'm not talking about what appeals to 70 year olds as opposed to 7 year olds.

Some people have argued that it's purely down to subject matter, an opinion I was starting to come around to, but that would seem to preclude games such as Ikaruga or one of the varoius iterations of VF4 which in my view would fulfill the criteria of a 'mature' game. Anyone can play those games but the level of depth/tactics on offer take it a step above other games with similar subject matter...no?

Some of the responses seem to be knee jerk reactions to a question. A big boy's post being a case in point. I'm not seeking to justify a pastime I enjoy, it's merely a question for discussion in the part of the forum called 'Discussion'.

[Ktw]

Some of the responses seem to be knee jerk reactions to a question. A big boy's post being a case in point. I'm not seeking to justify a pastime I enjoy, it's merely a question for discussion in the part of the forum called 'Discussion'.

I have to agree with this. It's as if a lot of people answer to the topic without bothering to read the thread. Which is a shame, of course.

As for subject matter, I would again argue that it's purely down to the treatment of the subject matter rather than the actual game mechanic that defines the level of maturity. Although, sometimes the game mechanic is the treatment... Oh well.

[tiedtiger]

Some people have argued that it's purely down to subject matter, an opinion I was starting to come around to, but that would seem to preclude games such as Ikaruga or one of the varoius iterations of VF4 which in my view would fulfill the criteria of a 'mature' game.  Anyone can play those games but the level of depth/tactics on offer take it a step above other games with similar subject matter...no?

No, simply put.

You can make a brilliant adventure movie or an extraordinary ripping epic yarn of a novel and never approach mature territory. Maturity is not necessarily a reflection of work quality. It's a reflection of subject matter and attitude.

[Jim Miles]

I think I agree with Neuromancer that it's purely down to subject matter. Much as I like to think Ikaruga and Virtua Fighter 4 are too complex for anyone but a mature person to really grasp the subtleties of, they simply aren't. I think for a game to be mature, it needs to feature concepts which are associated with maturity. A child could grasp most games, but it wouldn't really understand some of the issues in Vice City or be a suitable audience for certain war-themed games. If I'd been plonked in front of some more mature games when I was a kid I'm sure I would have missed their point. Perhaps while thinking I had understood them.

[Gorf King]

If you (and Linkster) read my response to Linkster's question as to the definition of mature you may know what I'm referring to.

As I said, for 'maturity', read appealing to the more intellectual part of a person's mind.  Not for one minute do I disagree with what you're saying but I'm not talking about what appeals to 70 year olds as opposed to 7 year olds.

All I'll say is that the term 'mature' is not a pseudonym for 'intellectual'. There's no such thing as 'mature gaming' (except possibly in these sense of describing age-restricted access, and even in that context it's being used as a poor pseudonym for the more easily understood 12, 18+, or whatever). I have read your response to Linkster's question, and I don't think it gives me a definition of maturity that I can accept.

I agree (indeed I've said) that some games tax the intellect more than others, some have more explicitly sexual or violent content, some require quick responses, some a more leisurely approach - all that's a given, and each will appeal in different measure to different people, regardless of their age (many 15 year olds are intellectually sharper than some 50 year olds, for example). But the term 'mature' when used as an attempt to categorise games or gamers is simply misleading, lazy and, ultimately, unhelpful - precisely because 'mature' is simply not descriptive, and - while being so woefully general - at the same time suffers uniquely from people not being able to agree on a common definition that works. IMO that's because it doesn't really describe anything that is salient to the subject matter, except when used to suggest that a game is *generally* thought morally or intellectually unsuitable for someone below a certain age (and that gross generalisation only exists because it's a necessary evil if you accept the need for censorship/age certification in society. Which practice, it must be said, is doomed to follow guidelines that are shot through with holes precisely because of they way that subject matter and presentation are too complex to pigeonhole and too amenable to artistic tinkering to fall comfortably into the generalised age-appropriateness guidelines).

Like it or not, maturity is a component of age (although not a necessary one), and it'll always be associated with age ranges. Beyond that crude and limited application, I can't see that the term is of any general value in discussing games - there's nothing that could be labelled a 'mature' game that couldn't far more usefully be described in other terms. So I'll continue to ignore it.

[tiedtiger]

All I'll say is that the term 'mature' is not a psuedonym for 'intellectual'. There's no such thing as 'mature gaming' (except possibly in these sense of describing age-restricted access, and even in that context it's being used as a poor pseudonym for the more easily understood 12, 18+, or whatever). I have read your response to Linkster's question, and I don't think it gives me a definition of maturity that I can accept.

I agree (indeed I've said) that some games tax the intellect more than others, some have more explicitly sexual or violent content, some require quick responses, some a more leisurely approach - all that's a given, and each will appeal in different measure to different people, regardless of their age (many 15 year olds are intellectually sharper than some 50 year olds, for example). But the term 'mature' when used as an attempt to categorise games or gamers is simply misleading, lazy and, ultimately, unhelpful - precisely because 'mature' is simply not descriptive, and - while being so woefully general - at the same time suffers uniquely from people not being able to agree on a common definition that works. IMO that's because it doesn't really describe anything that is salient to the subject matter, except when used to suggest that a game is *generally* thought morally or intellectually unsuitable for someone below a certain age (and that gross generalisation only exists because it's a necessary evil if you accept the need for censorship/age certification in society. Which practice, it must be said, is doomed to follow guidelines that are shot through with holes precisely because of they way that subject matter and presentation are too complex to pigeonhole and too amenable to artistic tinkering to fall comfortably into the generalised age-appropriateness guidelines).

That's a particularly narrow take on the meaning of the word, and not the one that some of us are taking.

Like it or not, maturity is a component of age (although not a necessary one), and it'll always be associated with age ranges. Beyond that crude and limited application, I can't see that the term is of any general value in discussing games - there's nothing that could be labelled a 'mature' game that couldn't far more usefully be described in other terms. So I'll continue to ignore it.

No, maturity is a functional of emotional development. I have met plenty of immature 55-year olds, for example, and many surprisingly mature 20 year olds.

It is also somewhat misappropriated for the age-rating style of system and, by logical extension of that, the porn industry uses it and 'adult' to describe its particular brand of product.

Some creative works are mature, some are not. The key is emotional development in the work, whether it's cheesy and simplistic, or complex. Whether it has a genuinely different observation to make, or whether it's "just" a piece of entertainment. (Let's not get into that particular thicket of art/entertainment just yet).

Mature games are those that are emotionally developed, and offer something in their subject matter that is as such emotionally developed. There are no games that I know of to date that are really mature, but a few have skirted the sidelines and taken the odd potshot into mature realms. Like Ico. Or the Total War games.

It's just a shame that there isn't more of a directed movement in this direction, to cater for those of us who are tired of the sci-fantasy and the spec-ops and the children's landscapes etc. Give it time, I suppose.

[Gorf King]

That's a particularly narrow take on the meaning of the word, and not the one that some of us are taking.

With respect, yours seems a particularly narrow reading of my post.

No, maturity is a functional of emotional development.

In part, it is. It's more than that, though.

I have met plenty of immature 55-year olds, for example, and many surprisingly mature 20 year olds.

So it's a component of age, though not a necessary one (unless you're arguing that you've met some very mature 2 year olds, too). Isn't that what I said earlier?

It is also somewhat misappropriated for the age-rating style of system

Yup. That's what I said, too.

Some creative works are mature, some are not. The key is emotional development in the work, whether it's cheesy and simplistic, or complex. Whether it has a genuinely different observation to make, or whether it's "just" a piece of entertainment. (Let's not get into that particular thicket of art/entertainment just yet).

Yeah, let's not. Otherwise we'll be comparing lists of 'mature' and 'immature' creative works which we'll doubtless disagree on, deconstructing the observations of the 'artists' and arguing over which were 'genuinely different' and which derivative, and squabbling about the difference between art and entertainment (as if there's any intrinsic connection between the two). But we were talking about games - 'mature' games - weren't we?

Mature games are those that are emotionally developed, and offer something in their subject matter that is as such emotionally developed.

Nope, don't get that bit at all. Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by 'emotionally developed', especially in the context of a videogame.

There are no games that I know of to date that are really mature

There's really no such thing as a 'mature' game? Thank God. Can we just stop there, then?

children's landscapes

Children? Oh, bah. I thought age wasn't a factor, by your definition?

Anyway, if you've seen the sorts of landscapes children describe or paint, don't you think that they meet your definition of making a "genuinely different observation" of a subject more than most described or painted by adults? Does that mean that the children are more mature in this case?

There's the problem with all of this. We'll never find a properly applicable fit between the words 'mature' and 'gaming', or even an acceptable definition of 'mature' per se (unless we just look in an agreed dictionary*). You've accepted that there aren't any really mature videogames. I'd agree. I'd also argue that 'maturity' is a concept that is completely immaterial to them, and not really worth bothering about.

*Dictionary.com (hardly the best, but handiest at the moment):

Having reached full natural growth or development: a mature cell.

Having reached a desired or final condition; ripe: a mature cheese.

Of, relating to, or characteristic of full development, either mental or physical: mature for her age.

Suitable or intended for adults: mature subject matter.

Composed of adults: a mature audience.

Worked out fully by the mind; considered: a mature plan of action.

Having reached the limit of its time; due: a mature bond.

No longer subject to great expansion or development. Used of an industry, a market, or a product.

Geology. Having reached maximum development of form. Used of streams and landforms.

Doesn't help your debate at all, really. And I think I've reached full extent of my being taxed by the OP's question at this point. I think the answer's clear enough...if you choose the obvious one. And even if it's not, then this particular game's not worth the candle. There's maturity in many things on this planet, but I don't find any in gaming. It seems you don't really find it there either, though evidently you find it elsewhere (I might be interested to know if you find it in any games other than videogames).

Anyway, that's me done. It's way past my tea time, and I'm off to enjoy something quick, cheesy, yet fulfilling - cheese and onion on toast. Made with extra mature Cheddar, of course.

[tiedtiger]

With respect, yours seems a particularly narrow reading of my post.

Play nice, GK.

[Gorf King]

Play

Yup.

[tiedtiger]

Yup.

Oh please. Put your toys back in your pram and be a bit...

mature?

[Gorf King]

Sorry, man. I don't do non-sequiturs.

I liked my ending better.

[Dimahoo]

Mature gaming is....

In the brain of the beholder.

If your intellegent enough to enjoy something mature, then your proberly are.

[tiedtiger]

Sorry, man. I don't do non-sequiturs.

I liked my ending better.

Don't make me start dragging out pictures of rattles and sqwawking babies.

On the subject of narrow readings, in shorthand, minus the shrill bleating, paragraph-shredding, poor sarcasm and dictionary-quoting childishness, your position is:

1. Maturity is related to age

2. There's no such thing as mature gaming, but some games are more intellectually taxing than others.

3. Except in the sense of age restricitions etc

4. You believe that the use of the term mature itself is unhelpful because the word itself is quite general

5. Especially as regards its relevance to subject matter

Have I missed anything?

That is all well and good, but in this debate/discussion, I am in fact talking about maturity in a fairly specific context, which I already outlined, as a term describing the tone, attitude and emotional development of the subject matter of the game. And following on from that, its capacity for interesting observations etc.

You rather snidely chose the no-defence of picking apart half-sentences and narrow meanings for reasons of, apparently, feeling offended for some reason. Or perhaps it just touched a nerve. (for example, acting like an arsehole when I said that were no games to date that were really mature, but touched on the edges. Your response was complete out-of-context nonsense and you know it).

Some useful things that you did have to say, however:

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by 'emotionally developed', especially in the context of a videogame.

What I mean is (and the following is all IMO):

In an emotionally immature work, there are often absolutes.

Great epic stories of good and evil, for example, are usually emotionally immature. They are so because they reflect a certain (often very desirable) simplicity. Great mythology, however, is often quite epic, but the interaction of the absolutes is more complex than it appears (such as the wars and jealousies of the Greek Gods), and ultimately more observant about humans and true character.

In the emotionally immature world of absolutes, concepts are taken as read (good, evil) and the subject is much more the events and the special effects. Emotionally immature works are unobservant in that sense, in that they trade on already-known ideas and concepts. Whether this is a question of laziness, unimaginativeness or simply unreasoning behaviour on the part of the creator is a debate for another time.

In videogames, such stereotypes are regularly trotted out and unexamined. Like a normal sort of comic, the focus of the games is the battle itself, not the themes underneath the battle, the ideas, the possibilities for observation and examination, and so on. This is not a universal truth of all games, but it is common enough to be generalised about the field.

However, SOME games have experimented in fields that could be described as the beginnings of maturity, and this is to do with subject matter. The Sims does offer something of a social experiment with people. Rez tries to expound some simple theories/extrapolations of evolution, which it backs up with a lot of visual material. Ico's whole setting is unsettling when you realise how much of it is to do with children and themes surrounding them. Total War is an interesting history lesson that slightly gets behind the motivations of history as well as the actual fighting.

These, in my argument, are examples of games that are bridging the gap between real emotional maturity and the old emotionally immature tropes that games traditionally don't stray from. It is tricky uncertain ground, and you may be right that using a word such as mature is fraught with interpretative difficulties, but it's about the best term there is at the moment.

Anyway, if you've seen the sorts of landscapes children describe or paint, don't you think that they meet your definition of making a "genuinely different observation" of a subject more than most described or painted by adults? Does that mean that the children are more mature in this case?

That depends. Is the child developing the observation, or merely recording what they see? Development (y'know, emotional) is the key here. This is not to say that the art in question is without value (it has much value if it's good nonetheless),

There's the problem with all of this. We'll never find a properly applicable fit between the words 'mature' and 'gaming', or even an acceptable definition of 'mature' per se (unless we just look in an agreed dictionary*). You've accepted that there aren't any really mature videogames. I'd agree. I'd also argue that 'maturity' is a concept that is completely immaterial to them, and not really worth bothering about.

That's because you read it narrowly in the first place.

It is hard going, especially in times like these, to come to a useful place in any of these sorts of discussions. That doesn't mean they're not worth bothering about.