The Sims 2

[The Liberal Elite]

I cited those games because they're great examples of games that give you a set of tools and let you solve problems / entertain yourself in the manner you see fit. The Sims is quite hollow in that respect. Buying more 'stuff' doesn't allow you to do different things. There's no mechanism to allow for experimentation. It's a simulacra rather than a simulation. Nobody has 'Sims anecdotes' where they have discovered something or had something unpredictable, unplanned or intuitive occur. I hope I've explained that a bit better now.

I don't understand why you're making such an issue of it. As I've already said, loads of people have bought and enjoyed this. And the same goes for myst, however rubbish and simple you may consider it to be.

These games are breaking boundaries in their own way, even IF they aren't massively complicated affairs. in fact, that's probably WHY they're so successful.

[JedEvangelion]

..I honestly don't believe this was ever at the core of what The Sims was trying to do.

MK-1601 mate, I think we're talking in circles here.

[MK-1601]

I don't understand why you're making such an issue of it. As I've already said, loads of people have bought and enjoyed this. And the same goes for myst, however rubbish and simple you may consider it to be.

These games are breaking boundaries in their own way, even IF they aren't massively complicated affairs. in fact, that's probably WHY they're so successful.

I fully accept that. I just don't see why Maxis should be excused from the normal standards of critical rigour because they've made a commercially successful game.

Appealing to the general public and making an enjoyable game don't have to be mutually exclusive. Ask Nintendo. (Pause for someone with short memory span to make witty retort. Random factoid: SMB3 sold 50 million copies.)

Making a game appeal to casuals at the expense of a decent game is easy. Should we applaud EA for slapping film licenses on duff games? After all, they may not appeal to the critically discerning, but they sell really well, so there must be a lesson to learn from them.

[Wickedkitten]

I don't care, I love the Sims more than I love Morrowind and seeing how I own every expansion pack for the first one as well as the Collectors Edition Sims from EB I'm getting this one as well.

I've already got the Sims 2 Body Shop and a shedload of packages for it so I can make all of my sims before the game gets here.

[JedEvangelion]

I fully accept that. I just don't see why Maxis should be excused from the normal standards of critical rigour because they've made a commercially successful game.

Appealing to the general public and making an enjoyable game don't have to be mutually exclusive. Ask Nintendo. (Pause for someone with short memory span to make witty retort. Random factoid: SMB3 sold 50 million copies.)

Making a game appeal to casuals at the expense of a decent game is easy. Should we applaud EA for slapping film licenses on duff games? After all, they may not appeal to the critically discerning, but they sell really well, so there must be a lesson to learn from them.

But just because The Sims doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean it isn't an enjoyable game, or that it's a 'shit' game, or a non-'decent' game. You might not like it, and that's fair enough, but you're placing a value judgement on it's worth as a piece of entertainment, based purely on what you think constitutes a decent game. Ignoring the EA issue, and arguments about whether or not the expansion packs are good value for money aside, the fact is that millions of people like the Sims because it's fun. And every single one of them thinks that THEY are 'critically discerning' too - just because we're perhaps more passionate about games as a whole doesn't mean our opinions of each game is more valid than anyone elses. It's the biggest selling PC game of all time, and I'm sure I read that with its combined sales it's the biggest selling game of all time, period.

Do you honestly believe it's acheived that lofty level of success while still being a shit game? Can you honestly acknowledge the fact that it's been in the sales top 10 SINCE RELEASE (usually in multiple positions, and it's still there) and STILL believe that this is despite the fact that it's shit? A typical EA game with it's accordant short term advertising might achieve short terms sales success. We all know that turds can be polished so they appeal. But more than any other game of the last 5 years The Sims has proven itself by maintaining that success continuously since release. At what point do you start to admit to yourself that this success might be because it's enjoyable for all the other millions of gamers who are / have played it?

I choose to look at a success like that and ask why, and see what lessons we can learn from it in terms of design, presentation, and marketing. It must be doing a lot of things right or it simply wouldn't have acheived the level of success it has.

[The Liberal Elite]

What Jed said, basically.

Fuck 'pure gaming experiences', we need more sims and less Ikarugas.

[MK-1601]

Do you honestly believe it's acheived that lofty level of success while still being a shit game?

Yes. You're just reiterating successful->good.

We can learn lessons from The Sims, in terms of appealing to casuals. I don't think a great many games have put those lessons into practice. And I don't think that the only way to broaden your appeal is to compromise gameplay.

99% of the Sims success can be put down to it being (thematically) a game anyone can understand, as well as it being the only game of its kind. (And of course a virtually infinite marketing budget helps.) Quality, depth and good workmanship are way down the list.

[MK-1601]

Fuck 'pure gaming experiences', we need more sims and less Ikarugas.

We need less of either, to be honest.

[Guest]

I don't care, I love the Sims more than I love Morrowind and seeing how I own every expansion pack for the first one as well as the Collectors Edition Sims from EB I'm getting this one as well.

I've already got the Sims 2 Body Shop and a shedload of packages for it so I can make all of my sims before the game gets here.

Forums biggest potential stalker RIGHT THERE!

[biglime]

MK-1601, you're just coming across as a gaming snob. The use of the term 'casuals' doesn't help your argument much.

The Sims is an incredible achievement. The purity of its design is what's made it so successful. It is, like the guy said earlier, just like playing with Barbie dolls or Action Man toys. It's a dress-up game. It's very childlike, and nostalgic, and it appeals on a lot of levels.

Again, like someone else mentioned earlier, if it were Nintendo who'd made it, the 'non-casuals' would be jumping through hoops.

R.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

It's not a million miles from Animal Crossing.

[Popo]

It's not a million miles from Animal Crossing.

Exactly my point earlier. AC is often highly praised around here, a forum darling if you will. The Sims is very similar, yet is the undue recipient of scorn, cynicism and sometimes dislike seemingly based on the fact that it's from America, it's published by EA and it's very popular in America and the UK.

In my humble opinion The Sims >> Animal Crossing. Screw the fact that's it's from Japan, by Nintendo and is oh-so cutesy, it's boring IMO. The Sims does the same thing but cuts out the boring bits and gives you things to do. A more relaxed pace wouldn't hurt, but when you get as relaxed as AC you've become lethargic.

[MK-1601]

MK-1601, you're just coming across as a gaming snob. The use of the term 'casuals' doesn't help your argument much.

It was a risk I was willing to take. I think it's an acceptable level of elitism.

I should point out that I don't dislike the Sims because it's accessible.

[Ste Pickford]

I really wanted to like the Sims, and bought it on day of release.

Aside from the problem that Pete mentioned early on in the thread - that simulating cooking and cleaning and going to work is not that much fun in itself, and the fact that I thought the gameplay a little uneven and unbalanced (like most PC resource management games), the reason that I stopped playing was that I found the point of the game rather distasteful.

It was advertised as a simulation of real life, but what was never mentioned, and perhaps not even noticed by the makers, was that it wasn't a simulation of life as most of us may know it, it was specifically a simulation of a (to me) horribly materialistically obsessed southern californian style of life. I couldn't get on with success in the game being measured in terms of the quality of your material possessions and the style of your house decoration.

OK, the game is a bit of fun, so perhaps I'm taking it too seriously, but I think the game was serious in this respect. The humour in the game derived from setting your house on fire and letting your bins overflow. The underlying message of success = furniture was implemented with a completely straight face I felt. If the game was taking the piss out of this attitude then I would have enjoyed it, but when I tried to play the game as I thought it was intented to be played I found myself questioning the attitudes and motivations of the people who made the game. They were unwittingly simulating life in hell.

[Wickedkitten]

Forums biggest potential stalker RIGHT THERE!

Cheeky Laddy

I still remember playing Little Computer People on my Apple IIE and wishing that I could interact with him more, lo and behold my dream was fulfilled!

To me half of the fun of the Sims is just decorating the house. I think I have about 1gb of sims objects and skins and heads that i have downloaded from the net, all to come to nothing with the Sims 2 but oh well.

[Guest]

Cheeky Laddy

I still remember playing Little Computer People on my Apple IIE and wishing that I could interact with him more, lo and behold my dream was fulfilled!

To me half of the fun of the Sims is just decorating the house. I think I have about 1gb of sims objects and skins and heads that i have downloaded from the net, all to come to nothing with the Sims 2 but oh well.

Backing...slowly....away...

[The-G]

Edited

[Wickedkitten]

Edited

[Cyhwuhx]

To me half of the fun of the Sims is just decorating the house. I think I have about 1gb of sims objects and skins and heads that i have downloaded from the net, all to come to nothing with the Sims 2 but oh well.

.::: Considering the new game takes up 3.5GB of your HD I don't think you'll be missing much of that.

[Rayn]

I guess if The Sims 2 is the first one all over, only with most of the niggles sorted it will be a great game.

It has been interesting to view some of the posts in this thread as there are many divided views on the franchise. I spoke to someone yesterday who have had the game for a while now as he is doing a review of it (yes, he IS doing a review and it is a proper reviewers copy ) and he seemed very optimistic about the game so far. He said that he didn't get bored with the sequel as quick as the original one. Only one week left 'til I can find out for myself. Bring on next friday!

[Wickedkitten]

I guess if The Sims 2 is the first one all over, only with most of the niggles sorted it will be a great game.

It has been interesting to view some of the posts in this thread as there are many divided views on the franchise. I spoke to someone yesterday who have had the game for a while now as he is doing a review of it (yes, he IS doing a review and it is a proper reviewers copy ) and he seemed very optimistic about the game so far. He said that he didn't get bored with the sequel as quick as the original one. Only one week left 'til I can find out for myself. Bring on next friday!

people in america are already getting it. I just now started reading about it and the amount of things that have gotten better in it are astounding.

[SteveH]

Well, the Yarr version is available now. Anyone else tried it? I've given it a quick whirl and it seems pretty cool. Never played the Sims before but it seems like fun and it looks nice. I'll have to sit and spend some quality time with it.

[Rayn]

I have the game on pre-order but I am also yarring the game at the moment. The GF can't wait to get started with it, so I'll bring this home and let her play it until the proper version gets here.

[Spunky Monkey]

I hope the clock has been slowed down, that was my biggest annoyance. By the time they got up, yawned, moaned, pissed, showed, ate, 7 hours would have gone by.

[Wickedkitten]

I have the game on pre-order but I am also yarring the game at the moment. The GF can't wait to get started with it, so I'll bring this home and let her play it until the proper version gets here.

if she liked the first, she will love the second. Thank fuck for the ability to hire a nanny, cos one of my sims actually managed to get pregnant with twins and she was finding it really hard to cope.

[Rayn]

The reviews is arriving constantly now and it gets impressive scores.

Apart from the (impressive) 8/10 in Edge magazine it got 5/5 on Gamespy and 9.4 on IGN.

It seems EA will do it again, a game that'll last for 5 years spanning 8 expansion packs.

[Cyhwuhx]

The reviews is arriving constantly now and it gets impressive scores.

Apart from the (impressive) 8/10 in Edge magazine it got 5/5 on Gamespy and 9.4 on IGN.

It seems EA will do it again, a game that'll last for 5 years spanning 8 expansion packs.

.::: That's a modest estimate...

[Graham S]

I really wanted to like the Sims, and bought it on day of release.

Aside from the problem that Pete mentioned early on in the thread - that simulating cooking and cleaning and going to work is not that much fun in itself, and the fact that I thought the gameplay a little uneven and unbalanced (like most PC resource management games), the reason that I stopped playing was that I found the point of the game rather distasteful.

It was advertised as a simulation of real life, but what was never mentioned, and perhaps not even noticed by the makers, was that it wasn't a simulation of life as most of us may know it, it was specifically a simulation of a (to me) horribly materialistically obsessed southern californian style of life. I couldn't get on with success in the game being measured in terms of the quality of your material possessions and the style of your house decoration.

OK, the game is a bit of fun, so perhaps I'm taking it too seriously, but I think the game was serious in this respect. The humour in the game derived from setting your house on fire and letting your bins overflow. The underlying message of success = furniture was implemented with a completely straight face I felt. If the game was taking the piss out of this attitude then I would have enjoyed it, but when I tried to play the game as I thought it was intented to be played I found myself questioning the attitudes and motivations of the people who made the game. They were unwittingly simulating life in hell.

Actually, Wil Wright has buried a point about consumerism a little deeper than that: I read an interview where he spoke about it.

Certainly, on the face of it the goal is to live the American dream: big house, big telly, lots of consumer durables. You work hard to buy all of this stuff, get a maid to help with the cleaning, and you win!

But in fact each labour saving device has a failure mode. You buy all this stuff and then you are in a nightmarish cycle of trying to get it all fixed, and earning money to buy more.

[jigger_jay]

i am gonna use the game i got today in the 5 for 1 in game,

then trade it back on friday and get sims 2.

[Fleksnes]

Having played the review-copy for a few days now, I have to say that having ambitions (goals that your Sims wants to achieve) and fears (goals they don't want to achieve) really makes this more like a proper game. The animations and interactions between the characters is also great. And I was one of those who never caught on with the original Sims.