The Sims 2

[Popo]

...

The Sims essentially gives you two options. Play the game exactly as the developers have decreed, or let the game reach a stalemate. Choosing option 1 allows you to buy new items (all of which are available from the outset), which add nothing to the experience of playing the game.

The game *should* be a sandpit, but the simulation is too impoverished (it's the polar opposite of Sim City 2000 in that respect), and the tools to using it to this end (like the photo editor) are underdeveloped.

Hmmm, no, the game never purported to be a sandbox type of game - the emphasis is firmly on meeting your Sims daily needs and 'improvng' them.

[cassidy]

Im tempted by Sims 2, not played any of the originals due to not owning a PC or being interested in the Console versions. For some reason I am being swayed to get this. Do you think it could tempt my computer hating-soap opera loving missus onto the PC? BTW Animal Crossing met with a loud shout of MEH!

[Popo]

The statistics don't lie, it's worth a shot

[JedEvangelion]

Im tempted by Sims 2, not played any of the originals due to not owning a PC or being interested in the Console versions. For some reason I am being swayed to get this. Do you think it could tempt my computer hating-soap opera loving missus onto the PC? BTW Animal Crossing met with a loud shout of MEH!

Try it. If Sims 2 is like £30 and she hates it, well thats £30 lost (minus whatever resale value you get for it). But if she loves it, she might just become more amenable to other games too. It IS just a big soap opera game, after all.

[toonfool]

You advance your chosen career to buy more stuff that makes your life easier, you expand your house, you get to redecorate and re-dress your sim(s), and improve your social standing.

Surely that's exactly the same sense of progression and reward that most people judge their real life worth by? Is this less rewarding than 'unlocking' some other item like a car or a racetrack or a new costume in another game?

And isn't the whole thing of sandbox gaming that it's all one big playpen, and as such it's all one big personal expression? Add to that the photo album (and the video editor in the Sims 2) and surely that's a much more freeform and satisfying way of being creative than most other games? I regularly take a peek at my GF's ongoing Sims saga, because the stories that she tells in words and pictures frequently have me in stitches. Man, that's really creative, even more so than the letter writing in Animal Crossing, for example.

Well done that man, your take on the game is spot on. Mind, I find it to be too much of a chore to get to the rewards, but if I'd had more patience my game would have panned out as you say.

My daughters love it though, and yesterday I got them the Unleashed pack, so I'm now officially the "Best Dad Ever". Well, I was last night.

[hub2]

I don't really know how anyone else plays it, but when my girlfriend was playing the game, it had absolutely nothing to do with 'getting more stuff' or building a bigger house, it's the stuff that the person projects onto the game that makes it fun, subtley influencing your avatars relationship with other sims, making up a story as you play. I think playing the game to accumulate is missing the point, and is a peculiarly male thing.

[snk]

Try it. If Sims 2 is like £30 and she hates it, well thats £30 lost (minus whatever resale value you get for it). But if she loves it, she might just become more amenable to other games too. It IS just a big soap opera game, after all.

Thats the only reason I am buying it. The GF has not played any of my games since I got Monkey Ball. This may raise her interest again

[toonfool]

Maybe it is a male thing. When I played it I looked at the big house at the top of the estate and thought "I want that one". If they want to appeal more to blokes they should put cars in there, you don't even need to drive them, just have them there to wash.

[Beertiger]

I'm just filling in for jack and beertiger until they turn up.

I don't get it.

Anyway i hated the original PC version (i don't like soap operas either) but i quite liked the NGAGE version to waste time on the train.

So does this one have the questy bits like the portable version or is it all doing boring tasks?

EDIT - yeah big shiney muscle cars to hang around and wash while drinking a beer. or lesbians twins living nextdoor.

[MK-1601]

The fact that it's captured the imaginations of millions of people in the way that the 'real' games that we play have is about a million times more important than the fact that it has shoddy ai, TBH.

An important game can still be a shit game though. See also Myst.

[hub2]

And Doom3.

[JedEvangelion]

Maybe it is a male thing. When I played it I looked at the big house at the top of the estate and thought "I want that one". If they want to appeal more to blokes they should put cars in there, you don't even need to drive them, just have them there to wash.

Heh

I can see another Maxis/EA expansion pack now; 'Sims : Unleaded' .

You're right, it is a major omission, although you did get upgradeable vehicles in the console Bustin' Out game. So thats probably a pointer that they'll be in Sims 2. At some point...

I'm certainly not saying that playing to accumulate is the only way to play the game; I did the same thing and wanted the big house and all the trappings, but at the end of the day all this 'stuff' is just the backdrop for the stories you create in the game, just as Hub2 points out above.

I know it's a marmite game, but its a flavour of marmite that loads of people who don't play games normally seem to really like. If only for that reason alone, there's shitloads we can learn from it.

[MK-1601]

How can a sandpit-styled game reach a stalemate? Basically you can keep advancing indefinitely, so how can it ever reach a deadlock state? There's so much new content available to buy or to download for free that you could conceivably never sample every single item. It's a game that potentially has unending new content.

I think you kind of missed the point of what I was saying. You have to play the game as the developer intended to the letter, or the simulation degenerates into a stalemate.

The simulation is impoverished because items in the world are just tokens with stats, that don't affect each other or the user agents in anything but rigidly predetermined ways. There's extremely minimal scope for emergent behaviour or non-premeditated exploitation of the toolset. Which is not universally the case in other simulation games. Or even GTA3. Or Deus Ex. etc.

Why should I be 'grateful' for a game that has zero influence on my own game experiences or the design of most games I'm interested in? Respectful, sure, but it's operating in a seperate environment to 'proper' games.

[Popo]

I don't really know how anyone else plays it, but when my girlfriend was playing the game, it had absolutely nothing to do with 'getting more stuff' or building a bigger house, it's the stuff that the person projects onto the game that makes it fun, subtley influencing your avatars relationship with other sims, making up a story as you play. I think playing the game to accumulate is missing the point, and is a peculiarly male thing.

Maybe, or maybe it's that we gamers can break the game down to its component parts and see them for what they are. A woman might play the Sims and make friends in it, yadda yadda yadda, whatever. I do the same thing when I play it, but I can see that the social aspect of the game is a mechanic that promotes advancement in the game for the Sim - that's what it is! That's how the designers intended it to be, because social and personal enhancement is what The Sims is geared towards, unlike AC where there really is no sense of improvement or enhancement (aside from maybe upgrading your house).

I suppose you could play the game purely on a day to day basis, giving the Sims what they want to keep their needs satisfied, and I suppose you could play the game only to make friends, but that doesn't mean they these aspects of the game are any less traditional game objectives.

[Cyhwuhx]

An important game can still be a shit game though. See also Myst.

.::: Myst is actually fantastic as a point'n-click adventure, Especially it's sequel Riven.

[Popo]

I think you kind of missed the point of what I was saying. You have to play the game as the developer intended to the letter, or the simulation degenerates into a stalemate.

The simulation is impoverished because items in the world are just tokens with stats, that don't affect each other or the user agents in anything but rigidly predetermined ways. There's extremely minimal scope for emergent behaviour or non-premeditated exploitation of the toolset. Which is not universally the case in other simulation games. Or even GTA3. Or Deus Ex. etc.

Why should I be 'grateful' for a game that has zero influence on my own game experiences or the design of most games I'm interested in? Respectful, sure, but it's operating in a seperate environment to 'proper' games.

Yes, you're right, the game is designed in that way. But it doesn't claim to be anything else.

[PaB]

Maybe, or maybe it's that we gamers can break the game down to its component parts and see them for what they are. A woman might play the Sims and make friends in it, yadda yadda yadda, whatever. I do the same thing when I play it, but I can see that the social aspect of the game is a mechanic that promotes advancement in the game for the Sim - that's what it is! That's how the designers intended it to be, because social and personal enhancement is what The Sims is geared towards, .

Which would be fine - if you only had the time to develop social skills with people etc.

By the time you have gone to Woken up, showered, gone to work, got home, cooked dinner, cleaned up, gone to the toilet, washed up etc, you are left with about 2 hours (game time) with which to actually have any "fun", before having to go to sleep.

[Rayn]

Just thought we needed some pics from Sims 2 in here..:

I am SO buying this game next week!!!

Now where is he actually looking?

Give her a glass of wine then! (Wine, dine 69 her!).

[snk]

I know nothing about this game and can't do a search as at work. Is the SIMS 2 online? If so is it only really meant for online play or does it have a decent single function?

[Rayn]

I know nothing about this game and can't do a search as at work. Is the SIMS 2 online? If so is it only really meant for online play or does it have a decent single function?

It is (afaik) single player only.

There is a standalone Sims Online, but that was a flop (again, afaik).

[Rushy]

So who is getting this? Seriously?

Me, I've had it pre-ordered for short while now.

Never played the original sims though, so I hope its good

[Guest]

Rayn RE your pictures - is it possible to have 3 somes in this version? Said man might actually be happy about this development and join in.

Do Sims get more "available" when drunk...

[Rayn]

RE?

[JedEvangelion]

I think you kind of missed the point of what I was saying. You have to play the game as the developer intended to the letter, or the simulation degenerates into a stalemate.

Agreed, kinda, but as Popo says, I don't think it ever claimed to be anything else. I don't understand the 'to the letter' comment; surely you can see there's plenty of scope for experimentation there, within the established parameters of the gameplay? Isn't that how 95% of all videogames work? Freedom to do what you want within the established parameters?

There's a ruleset that the game follows; the interactions between the characters in the gameworld are built entirely around that ruleset. And that ruleset caters for most possible activities within the game. So in that sense it's about prescribed actions and their effects, rather than it being based mainly on AI and allowing emergent gameplay to dominate the experience. It is what it is. But very little AI in games is anything more than that, really; it's a ruleset. The Sims doesn't have the most sophisticated AI ruleset, true, but it's a pretty old game now, so you have to keep it in context. And I don't think it was ever intended to have any truly emergent gameplay, any more than Sim City did, or the other Maxis Sim games. I think Maxis designed it knowing that players would want to understand the mechanics of the gameplay, otherwise why include all the stats in there telling you 'this item gives you comfort of 5', etc? Arguably, a truly AI driven Sims game would produce mostly aberrant behaviour, because of the complexity of the systems it's simulating, and be less realistic as a result; I seem to remember Will Wright himself said as much at the time of it's release. Maybe with todays AI it can be done. Maybe thats how Sims 2 will be. Maybe not. I'd love to see that, to see if it works believably, but I have to say I honestly don't believe this was ever at the core of what The Sims was trying to do.

The examples you quote are valid examples of how emergent AI can provide entertaining gameplay experiences, but your argument seems to be just that The Sims is not the game you thought it should have been, or wanted it to be...? Unrealised potential is something that ANY game suffers from. There's always something more that can be done with it. The gameplay that's at the core of the Sims experience is fairly unique and has arguably had a huge influence on any number of other genres. In the development arena there seems to be lots of games at the moment that are moving towards buddy AI and social simulations, for example; it's the new flavour of the month. People want games where characters interact believably in a social situation; that's what The Sims managed to provide, and it was the first to do it. Arguably without The Sims' success, the sort of social interactions we're looking forward to in Halfy 2 might never have been wished for. I honestly believe it's influence is wide-reaching and significant, and will continue to be so.

[MK-1601]

And I don't think it was ever intended to have any truly emergent gameplay, any more than Sim City did, or the other Maxis Sim games.

...

My examples were not about AI or realism. They were about robustness of simulation.

And I don't think it's had any influence on game design. Your HL2 example is tenuous at best.

[Spunky Monkey]

I really enjoyed the sims in short bursts. I found that you could never play a game with one person though, as they always had to work and by the time they came home and eat had to go to work again, leaving you no time to get them to make friends and stuff.

I loved building the house and making it all nice but you really did need a family so everything would get done.

Sadly i wont be buying this on release day, but soon after i hope, stupid money and too many game releases!

[Guest]

RE?

re2

prep.

In reference to; in the case of; concerning.

Like on emails

To: Kim

From: Jim

RE: Your picture of a goat and a banana

[Rayn]

re2

prep.

In reference to; in the case of; concerning.

Like on emails

To: Kim

From: Jim

RE: Your picture of a goat and a banana

Ok, I get the picture...actually I got it before your reply but didn't update the post. Anyways, I don't know anything about the posibilities for having monage a trois in the game, but I think it is judging some of the pictures floating around the interweb... They might be fake, though.

[JedEvangelion]

...

My examples were not about AI or realism. They were about robustness of simulation.

And I don't think it's had any influence on game design. Your HL2 example is tenuous at best.

Then why quote GTA III and Deus Ex? Robustness of simulation?

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm happy to further debate this, but it appears very much that you say it's about one thing, I answer that point, you then say it's not about that, it's about something else. Kinda Exasperating.

If we talk about robustness of simulation are you gonna change your mind again? Maybe if you explain exactly what your point is, we can proceed, because clearly I'm missing your point here. I'm kinda having a one-sided debate, really, and thats no fun ....

[MK-1601]

Then why quote GTA III and Deus Ex? Robustness of simulation?

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm happy to further debate this, but it appears very much that you say it's about one thing, I answer that point, you then say it's not about that, it's about something else. Kinda Exasperating.

If we talk about robustness of simulation are you gonna change your mind again? Maybe if you explain exactly what your point is, we can proceed, because clearly I'm missing your point here. I'm kinda having a one-sided debate, really, and thats no fun ....

I cited those games because they're great examples of games that give you a set of tools and let you solve problems / entertain yourself in the manner you see fit. The Sims is quite hollow in that respect. Buying more 'stuff' doesn't allow you to do different things. There's no mechanism to allow for experimentation. It's a simulacra rather than a simulation. Nobody has 'Sims anecdotes' where they have discovered something or had something unpredictable, unplanned or intuitive occur. I hope I've explained that a bit better now.