A Debate With A Friend

[Zeroborta]

I'm really tired right now so this is only in note form

Now this is essentially the crux of argument.

Me: "...all games have a narrative"

Friend: "don't be stupid...pacman? rez? pong? blah blah"

Me:: "what is narrative?"

Friend: "story?"

Me: "what defines a story?"

Friend :"events, actions, recollections blah blah blah"

Me: "what type of entertainment medium are games?"

Friend:"interactive?"

Me:"Right, so events and actions take place...by you with/in the game"

Friend:"...?>"

Me: "so there is a narrative there"

Friend:"where's the story in pacman/pong?"

Me: "playing the game is the story/narrative. Gaming is interactive. So the narrative plays in real time, unlike movies where it is all prescribed"

Friend: "fuck off"

there.

[Alex W.]

I agree with you, even games with no pre-written story have a narrative. Often, the most memorable stories in games are the ones which aren't prewritten- I rarely gave a damn about what was happening to characters in Advance Wars, but my struggles and advances and finding footholds were memorable tales of conquest and victory. Probably more than they would be if the game had pre-scripted advances and footholds as objectives on a checklist.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

You tedious sod. You KNOW what he meant.

[Fry Crayola]

The friend started the argument, and was put firmly in its place.

I'd like to know what brought about the whole thing in the first place.

[Zeroborta]

You tedious sod. You KNOW what he meant.

Jp, I really got worked up about this yesterday...so spare me any sarcasm. that is if you are referring to me.

The friend started the argument, and was put firmly in its place.

I'd like to know what brought about the whole thing in the first place.

You mean I was right?

The argumetn started when he said somethign along the lines of how FF + other rpgs have excellent narrative and be good whilst some games have no narrative (he is not on about shit narrative here) and be good.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

Jp, I really got worked up about this yesterday...so spare me any sarcasm. that is if you are referring to me.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Some games tell a story, some don't. You can say the gameplay *is* a story but you know what he meant.

[Droo]

i happen to agree , there is no narrative in a multiplayer / skirmish command and conquer yet i have memorable game experiences which could amount to recalling a story.

that is if im following your point correctly.

[Zeroborta]

You've lost me.

accidental initial post

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Some games tell a story, some don't.  You can say the game play *is* a story but you know what he meant.

yes he wasn't referring to games with shit narrative > hence no narrative. He actually meant Pacman/Rez have no narrative. That game play in itself cannot constitute a narrative. Which I think is complete bollox. This is why he thinks, FF is a game with narrative (simply because the game has a literary like backdrop) whilst pure pick-up n play games have NO narrative what so ever.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

You've lost me.

[dismembo]

So by your definition then that means a game of tennis or football or any sport is actually a narrative experience rather than a competitive event?

Is a game of chess a story of war in all it's glory?

Is noughts and crosses akin to Shakespeare?

[X_2_0]

I think your friend was right, a narrative should be more than just a chain of events.

Otherwise everything has a narrative.

[Zeroborta]

I think your friend was right, a narrative should be more than just a chain of events.

right you must think i'm looney here.

But there is a design for life...whether it's text book academia or in reality.

Otherwise everything has a narrative.

yes. Can you tell me something we do but cannot account for? Everything you do...or should i say everything that happens can be accounted for.

[Zeroborta]

So by your definition then that means a game of tennis or football or any sport is actually a narrative experience rather than a competitive event?

Is a game of chess a story of war in all it's glory?

Is noughts and crosses akin to Shakespeare?

no. Playing Pro Evolution soccer, isn't a narrative experience.

Watching football on tely, in a stadium, reading a game from a book is.

The difference ...in a game is that you are in and part of the story.....just because you cannot look from the outside and percieve it with your imagination (prompted by the adjectives you read, signals to your brain (watching)* doesn't mean there is a lack of narrative)

*narrative experience

[Rin]

That "argument" doesn't really make sense, seeing as you both meant completely different things. And were both, in a way, correct.

[Zeroborta]

i happen to agree , there is no narrative in a multiplayer / skirmish command and conquer yet i have memorable game experiences which could amount to recalling a story.

that is if im following your point correctly.

precisely

[Zeroborta]

That "argument" doesn't really make sense, seeing as you both meant completely different things. And were both, in a way, correct.

Iinitially there was a misunderstanding, but when we clarified, he atually persisted:

yes he wasn't referring to games with shit narrative > hence no narrative. He actually meant Pacman/Rez have no narrative. That game play in itself cannot constitute a narrative. Which I think is complete bollox. This is why he thinks, FF is a game with narrative (simply because the game has a literary like backdrop) whilst pure pick-up n play games have NO narrative what so ever.

[dismembo]

no. Playing Pro Evolution soccer, isn't a narrative experience.

Watching football on tely, in a stadium, reading a game from a book is.

The difference ...in a game is that you are in and part of the story.....just because you cannot look from the outside and percieve it with your imagination (prompted by the adjectives you read, signals to your brain (watching)* doesn't mean there is a lack of narrative)

*narrative experience

But how can playing a game of Pro Evo be less of a narrative experience than playing a game of Pac-Man?

[Karzee]

The next time you and your friend are arguing over this, just stop and think, "Y'know what? Life's too short. Lets go down the pub and see if we can get laid".

[dismembo]

The next time you and your friend are arguing over this, just stop and think, "Y'know what? Life's too short. Lets go down the pub and see if we can get laid".

Now that's what I call narrative....

[Zeroborta]

You contradict yourself here.

A game of Pro Evo has it's own events caused by player interaction. It is, in a similar sense to your other examples, a narrative experience.

When I say 'narative experience' I am refering to depiction of 'x'. So you, the listener is being narrated to. Exactly like when someone tells you a story and you imagine it. Of course there are different degrees. Like reading an article about a game of football in comparison to being there might not be same in terms of quality/type/length of experience but are both narrative experiences as...events are unfolding before you. With gaming it is slighty different. Watching/reading about a game of football isn't the same as playing Pro Evo. Playing the game is the event.

I hope i explained that well .

[Ludachrist]

Stop having the same avatar. It's really confusing!

[tiedtiger]

And so the hoary old sop of narratology versus ludology comes to rllmuk. But here's a suggestion:

NO games have narrative.

A narrative is what exactly? Dictionary.com defines it as:

"n.

1. A narrated account; a story.

2. The art, technique, or process of narrating. "

That means that for a narrative to exist there must be a pre-determined structure of events from which the narrator draws his tale. Narratives are records, historical, metaphorical, set in stone.

Games have no narrative because while playing it you are actively generating that record. There is no narrative to games until they are complete. And yes, this includes games with massive amounts of cut-scenes. The fact is that the story of playing any game is not a narrative UNTIL the play is complete, not before or during.

Games ONLY have gameplay and emotion, that's IT. Cut-scenes and other story elements serve to guide that gameplay and emotion, but they are not a narrative until the play is done and the events are recollected and THEN a story is born.

[Zeroborta]

But how can playing a game of Pro Evo be less of a narrative experience than playing a game of Pac-Man?

It isn't. Becuase they are both games.

Playing football is the same as playing Pro Evo. In terms of 'type' of experience.

[Zeroborta]

2. The art, technique, or process of narrating.

was it too convenient to ignore?

[Zeroborta]

Stop having the same avatar. It's really confusing!

i have awesome avatars but no ftp. so i'll have to stick to this for a while

[tiedtiger]

2. The art, technique, or process of narrating. "

2. The art, technique, or process of narrating. "

2. The art, technique, or process of narrating. "

2. The art, technique, or process of narrating. "

2. The art, technique, or process of narrating. "

was it too convenient to ignore?

Of narrating what?

A story. A record of events already constructed or done. That is what a narrative is. Ergo, games have NO narrative of their own.

Everyone's play experience of every single game on this earth is different. Games have lots of potential to generate narrative, but they themselves are not narratives. A player's experience of the game, once retold, THAT is a narrative.

What you are confusing is the idea that guided emotions and plot events constitute narrative in a game setting. They do not. They guide experience, but the narrative comes later.

[Karzee]

Now that's what I call narrative....

Nah, I was suggesting a course of action.

[Zeroborta]

I never said games have narrative of their own. But Games 'have' narrative simply becuase people will play them and therefore a story being created:

Playing the game is the event.

[Petrousgyre]

But there is a design for life...whether it's text book academia or in reality.

Design isn't the same thing as narrative. True, you can project your own narrative on to games - but that isn't the same thing as all games having innate narrative.

Strikes me as an unnecessary attempt to reconcile games and film/literature. There's a lot of this about.

[tiedtiger]

I never said games have narrative of their own. But Games 'have' narrative simply becuase people will play them and therefore a story being created:

No, the cart goes after the horse.

Let us say I go on a hike up a mountain. Along the way I see a few sheep. I say hello to another hiker coming down. He tells me to watch my step, it's a bit muddy up there. I continue to walk, thinking that guy was a twat. I slip, fall, muddy my pants and bruise my dignity. Then I reach the top, feeling thoroughly annoyed and walk down. Once I get to the bottom, I see that hiker there. He laughs. I laugh at the humour of my muddy arse. And I drive home after a cheerful wave.

At what point does this account of events become a narrative?

Is it at the point that I set out?

In which case does that mean that the mountain has narrative?

After all, it is a guided event (I'm climbing up there like lots of people do) and there are goals and so on.

No, it is not. The mountain is the environment that I interact with. The journey that happens is my experience. The story of my experience, the narrative, came to life when I remembered/invented my experience and related it to you just now.

Narration is the act of telling someone an account of something, not the experience of that something itself. It is the act of remembering with a spin to entertain or inform. Narrative is the point at which you say "Let me tell you about my hike".

A game is analogous to the mountain of my example. It is a guided challenge, a series of potential events. But in Halo, I might kill only some of the Covenant and die a hundred times in the library. I might react any one of a dozen ways to the main characters and the inspiration or insipid cut scenes. I might specialise in various moves etc. That's experience. Narrative is when I tell you about it, write about it, make a film of it, whatever. Narrative is the result of my narration.