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Mr Do 71
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I can't be arsed to read through all these post but it sounds like it's been fun... anyone care to collate a short synopsis of the events so far :D

So these edge scores then... what about the content of this issus as good as the last one or better? ;) ;)

Cheers

Quexex

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So these edge scores then... what about the content of this issus as good as the last one or better? <_<;)

Not bad. Largely E3 coverage. Much of the detail I'd already got from links supplied on here, but it was well worth hearing Edge's considered opinions on what they saw. They like the PSP (epsecially the screen). They were also pleasantly surprised by the new Starfox game. Can't remember the rest, but there was lots to read. Columns were decent. Some interesting reviews (interesting take on FSW, a review for Thief III that made it sound like more than a 7). The features / interviews were underwhelming: a new studio for the Viewtiful Joe / Devil May Cry folk, and a lookback on Looking Glass that didn't seem to have much substance to it (they were all really smart, apparently).

7/10

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Library? Northampton? .ac.uk?

You're not one of thsoe lazy EARL people are you? If not, go over there and tell them to get their arse in gear.

D'oh!

Actually, I was thinking about that just last night. In my defence, I didn't even know this place existed until a month or so ago. I thought you were all dead.

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D'oh!

Actually, I was thinking about that just last night. In my defence, I didn't even know this place existed until a month or so ago. I thought you were all dead.

Caught you!

I occassionally send "horness" nagging emails about it, but he just blames the other guy. I let him know about this place: he should have told you.

Seriously, it's really useful. If you don't want to keep doing it, I'm sure we can persuade someone here to volunteer: it would be a shame to let all that work go to waste.

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Caught you!

I occassionally send "horness" nagging emails about it, but he just blames the other guy. I let him know about this place: he should have told you.

Seriously, it's really useful. If you don't want to keep doing it, I'm sure we can persuade someone here to volunteer: it would be a shame to let all that work go to waste.

Well, it tailed off as the old forum fell apart (I'm sure Horness sent the last mail about it, I'll be the villain) and, as I say, I assumed there had been some kind of Bath meet that ended in a tragic coach accident. But if it's still going to be useful (and in fact it would have been useful to me the other day to find a review) then I suppose it must live on. I'll contact Horness (he's HPS here, isn't he?) and see if he's still up for it all. Doesn't help when people keep changing their names, myself included.

Not that I have anything against work going to waste, you understand.

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No it doesn't. FPS isn't that vague. Shooting from the first-person is a fairly basic concept that is easily identifiable. Of course it does get vague when you're talking about where the focus of the game lies, genres begin to blend into one another. But that's the problem with "Mecha" as a genre. It blends into everything. It has no influence on how the game plays. Any game can be a mecha game, and any mecha game could have the mechs removed and be exactly the same (actually, I'd say the one exception could be Steel Battallion. But then you may as well say that an F-16 simulator is part of the F-16 genre). As I believe I have proved (repeatedly) by now, the presence of a big robot does not effect the gameplay on iota, therefore it is not a genre. An example:

I did a bit of research on Gigantic Drive, and I fail to see why it must be a robot there. It's some guy controlling a robot limb by limb by remote control. Why couldn't it be, say, a psychic controlling a giant monster limb by limb from the ground? It wouldn't be a big robot, but it would be exactly the same game. The presence of a big metal man is an aesthetic consideration, nothing more. Virtual On is 3rd-person 3d battle game, Assault Suit Valken is a 2D platform shooter, Front Mission is a tactical RPG. Aesthetic considerations are irrelevant in genre catagorisation. Halo is an FPS, not a Sci-fi Space Adventure Aliens/Starship Troopers Inspired FPS. But, oh - if the Japanese do it differently, I must be wrong!

Gigantic Drive is a different example however, the developer Sandlot (who are unsurprisingly Japanese) created the game as a literal homage to how many "super robots" where controlled in early mecha anime (in that the pilot remote controlled the mecha from the ground). They extended this even further in the method your mecha was controlled (eg - limb by limb). The games design concept was inspired by mecha anime and to be put into a mecha game (to the extent that Sandlot are now heading up a Tetsujin 28 game). Indeed, replacing the mecha with people and controlling them limb by limb could work, but there wouldn't be any kind of inspiration to do create such a game (and it would handle very differently, if made by a Japanese developer). This is partially true due to Sandlot's budget release, The Chikyuu Boueigun, that uses the same engine from purely a person the ground perspective. Though it naturally plays very differently.

Concerning this debate, I discovered something a friend contributed to my site (go here if your curious). The most pertinent remark to this discussion is this:

"No, I don't buy it. The whole base of your argument was that mecha games defy genre definition. You're like David Hume, saying that nothing is knowable and then claiming certain knowledge from it. If you claim it's a matter of simple analysis that you can't genre-analyse the area, then the definition must be intuitive and made by fans. It is YOU who wants to have it both ways."

Valken, Front Mission and Virtual On are more than just platformers, RPGs and action. They were created from a clear inspiration, and that inspiration moulds the experience into something unique. Mecha, basically.

That Link bit was covered in what I just said. And as for the "clunkiness", if you made a game with a giant robot that wasn't clunky would it not be a Mecha game then? What if it was a big oafish man, would THAT be a mecha game? Anyway, the times when this clunkiness actually effects gameplay are practically nil, and with those that do, I'll just bring up the oafish man again. It's all aesthetic, which is irrelevant in this discussion.

The handling in the Gran Turismo games is verging on sublime, it's engaging and definitive of the series. Handling of mecha is something that is an even finer art because mecha don't actually exist and the creators have to make an educated guess based on various anime sources that they have been inspired by. Replacing mecha with oafish men would mean the designers would attribute control differently, making the game feel different. It's not just an aesthetic consideration, but a tangible facet of how mecha games define themselves: you control mecha.

`Ok, that's the least sensical paragraph I've ever read. You must really be on the ropes here. I'm going to ignore that little spurt of Macross, mainly because I have not the faintest idea what you're talking about. But as for the rest... Ok, so Metroid is not mecha because it's not a big suit, like in Gundam. But! In Gotcha Force it is a small suit. But! It's the handling. Is that what you mean (if that even means anything)? Well, is "clunkiness" now the main attribute of mechaism? Nice of you to mention it now, after the all the discourse we've had so far. But that still doesn't make a difference. With "real" mechs, surely the handling would vary from model to model? So what if one handled like Samus's power suit? Would that no longer be a mecha game?

I thought the handling would be a redundant comment, after all no-one questions the handling of cars in car games or the movement of Gordon Freeman in Half-Life. We take it for granted, admittedly those are based on real-world objects, but mecha are merely an extension of real world sensibilities. They have created thirty years worth of idiosynchratic physical mannerisms which make mecha what it is. In short, I took other people's possible mecha knowledge for granted. I shall patronise from here on in.

As for Samus, she does human things. So if even she handled in a more clunky and mechanical fashion, should would remain human because of the relative size issue and the fact you control Samus and not her suit. In Gotcha Force you control the chibi mecha, you are the pilot. The cypher based nature of mecha is important in terms of mecha gaming.

Well, we know about it now, thank you, now shut up about it.

The first J-Pheonix is pretty sodding great too!

This is just bizarre. There are only so many good things about a game, and on the more widely discussed game on here, I think they've probably all been covered. If one person says they like one thing about a game, does another person have to come up with something else? PERSON 1: I really like the atmosphere of Ico, and the puzzles, interaction with Yorda, graphics, control, combat and animation! PERSON 2: Er, I really like the font they use!

That's a tangent, not an individual perspective. Try again.

You know, Penny Arcade said they didn't like Halo. They did a strip about it's repetitive nature. They said they we're really dissapointed with it, and didn't understand all the furore around it. Fair enough. You said: "Halo is not that good, and if you don't agree you are wrong. Not just wrong, but you are also weakminded zombies who will follow what ever your beloved but evil Edge tells you! Fools! Also, my shadowy clique of industry contacts told me that Dave McCarthy touched up a ten year old boy, it's true." That's not really true. For the last time, don't you think that a lot of people might agree with magazines because the magazines might say things that people agree with? If Edge said "The grass is green, the sky is blue" do you think that people would be zombies for agreeing?

I didn't know that about David, but insightful nonetheless. As for my ire on Halo, I don't see how "pounding nails through dicks" is any less offensive than what I reasoned (and I did reason on the game's repeated level design and non-existent AI, something that they observed too). The furore is also strange, even someone like me who has been called on this very forum "deranged" finds the zealous mouth frothing of Halo acolytes utterly bizarre. I own a Virtual On cabinet, and love the game dearly, but it's not the Second Fucking Coming of Christ!

No, you sound self-aborbed and arrogant ALL THE TIME. Anyway, that's some good backpedalling there. And I still maintain that people's inability to "respond to each other" is an invention of yours, being an observation of the fact that nobody responds to YOU because you act like a twat. I might not know what you are like in real life, but I have trouble believing that you make some kind of miraculous change when you get off a computer. And Strider's met you and doesn't seem to think much of you.

It's only when I eat a banana...

And finally, I want to ask you - why do you keep coming here? We clearly don't recognise your latent genious or your truly intuitive psyche. Sure you've got a couple of people who can bear your presence for a little while (your man-servant MK-1601 for instance), but they are hugely outweighed by the numbers of us who think you're a twat. So why do you turn up every month to weigh into the Edge thread and be on the recieving end of a torrent of abuse?

edgevenn.jpg

Whilst this was meant in jest, it does highlight something quite dark. EDGE fans, and this means most of this forum, do hold themselves in higher regard than "mere mortals" (something the editorial is all to keen to endorse). I stand my ground because nobody has that right to subjugate others with such a frail form of justification (none of you are omniscient); I am returning the elitist favour and showing that not everybody must adhere to some kind of totalitarian gaming regime.

Never any problems at ntsc-uk eh? Such as time you screamed at us for fascist censorship when your abusive posts were edited in an Edge topic, or the infamous 'why don't people like Cacophanus?' topic by Shevek, which was then speedily removed to save you embarassment but warranted a 4+ page thread in the Mod forum.

The only reason you can claim that you have never had any problems there is that these incidents were speedily brushed under the carpet due to your 'writer' status and the desire to create a 'unified front', only the people who were fortunate enough to glimpse them in their short time up on the forum, and those that had access to 'behind the scenes' could say with any certainty that they existed at all.

I am not Shevek and I wouldn't have been embarassed.

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Whilst this was meant in jest, it does highlight something quite dark. EDGE fans, and this means most of this forum, do hold themselves in higher regard than "mere mortals" (something the editorial is all to keen to endorse). I stand my ground because nobody has that right to subjugate others with such a frail form of justification (none of you are omniscient); I am returning the elitist favour and showing that not everybody must adhere to some kind of totalitarian gaming regime.

Are you and your inferiority complex still here?

What form of justification you're talking about in that paragraph? Have you given up writing clearly since consigning your freelance career to dust in a previous bout?

The handling in the Gran Turismo games is verging on sublime, it's engaging and definitive of the series. Handling of mecha is something that is an even finer art because mecha don't actually exist and the creators have to make an educated guess based on various anime sources that they have been inspired by. Replacing mecha with oafish men would mean the designers would attribute control differently, making the game feel different. It's not just an aesthetic consideration, but a tangible facet of how mecha games define themselves: you control mecha.

You really don't understand* what you're talking about.

In one case you're talking about modelling a well-defined physical process within the context of a game. In the other you're talking about a straitjacket of the imagination, which clearly doesn't apply equally to both Armored Core and Metal Arms.

* This is obviously different from >>thinking<< you understand what you're talking about. And a world apart from being able to admit that you don't understand what you're talking about.

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edgevenn.jpg

Whilst this was meant in jest, it does highlight something quite dark.

I've thought about this for a few minutes now, and I think I can see how you might infer it was meant in jest. I'll try to be less ambiguous in future. Now for the love of God, wipe your chin, man!

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edgevenn.jpg

Whilst this was meant in jest, it does highlight something quite dark. EDGE fans, and this means most of this forum, do hold themselves in higher regard than "mere mortals" (something the editorial is all to keen to endorse). I stand my ground because nobody has that right to subjugate others with such a frail form of justification (none of you are omniscient); I am returning the elitist favour and showing that not everybody must adhere to some kind of totalitarian gaming regime.

I am not Shevek and I wouldn't have been embarassed.

You clearly don't have a clue. Sit down and read the arguments non-you members of the forum have had about Halo and what's good or bad about it (some people actually like the Library, bizarrely), and about Edge.

Also, funnily enough reciprocation of percieved or geniune elitism is pretty goddamned counterproductive. You're practically a walking case study in irony in that respect.

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i don't think i'll ever be able to play games with big robots again due to Cacophanus bringing new meaning to the phrase "boring a fuck". i'll forever be haunted by his inane ramblings. cheers mate.

*as

Yes, Cacophanus has undoubtably done more damage to the Armored Core franchise and large mechanical exoskeleton related games in general than any number of vaguely incorrect Edge reviews or GamesTM score overrides ever could.

On this forum, at least.

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I thought this analogous to the majority of rllmuk's population:

"Zombies are green, move very slowly and change direction randomly and frequently unless they can see something moving in front of them, in which case they start walking towards it. After a while they get bored and wander randomly again.

If a zombie finds a human directly in front of it, it tries to kill them. They will succeed, unless the human population is low. In that case, there is a chance the human will expect the zombie, and have a chance to attack first!"

I have my shotgun, and I will take every last sodding of you lot with me! BRING IT ON!

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