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tiedtiger
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And that's why Voyager went 7 seasons.

Despite being fan-drivel rubbish end to end.

No, Voyager went for 7 seasons because it had the name Star Trek on it. If it didn't, it would have been axed earlier. Star Trek franchises are a big cash cow. The same can be said for Enterprise. That would surely be gone if it wasn't Star Trek. In fact, they didn't have the Star Trek in the name for the first couple of seasons, but then they added it for the third to try to get back more viewers. Many think it may be heading for an axing,

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No, it was B+B thinking they were tailoring to the fans expectations. They weren't. The fans hate them. The fans wanted them fired long ago.

Brannon Braga wrote most of the best episodes of The Next Generation.

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No, Voyager went for 7 seasons because it had the name Star Trek on it. If it didn't, it would have been axed earlier. Star Trek franchises are a big cash cow. The same can be said for Enterprise. That would surely be gone if it wasn't Star Trek. In fact, they didn't have the Star Trek in the name for the first couple of seasons, but then they added it for the third to try to get back more viewers. Many think it may be heading for an axing,

And what, pray tell, makes it such a cashy cow?

The fans of course.

So one feeds the other in a sort of dwindling spiral.

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But surely Metroid fans would have initially shat blood at seeing their beloved franchise all first-persony and such? Fandom can be a problem, but I don't think Metroid Prime is a particularly pertinent example of its negative influences.

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If we're going to be pedantic, I'd have used the word "zealot" over fan, because in a contemporary setting, one is far more suitable and applicable than the other.

However, I suppose if you use the word fan in it's most literal sense, then yes, they are the undoing of unfettered creativity - but also the reigns that hold designers back from taking a series in completely pointless directions.

But this is pedantry of the highest order. I'm a "fan" of Castlevania for example. I'd call myself a fan because I eagerly await the next installment of the series and news of which makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

But does that mean I don't retain the ability to recognise flaws in the Castlevania series? No - and I'm not going to label myself an "enthusiast" just for the sake of proper grammatical use.

Same goes for Metroid (which Castlevania happens to have a lot in common with). I personally thought that next to Mario 64, Metroid Prime was the best transition from 2D to 3D I've ever had the pleasure of playing. That's based on the only other Metroid game I've played - Super Metroid. And I didn't even finish that.

I'd try to take your inane and self-congratulatory ramblings in good humour were it not for my nagging suspicion that you really do believe you're word is gospel and your vitriol is born of frustration rather than a minority opinion that the majority don't share.

Your whole argument is flawed: if fan pressure is the sole reason that franchises go the way of the dodo, then why make MP first person? All of the "faults" you've ranted about are the crux of gameplay mechanics unique to MP and Retro Studios.

So I should probably stop rambling and show your argument for the shambles it really is:

What a shit game that is, primarily because the fps controls are just plain fucking awkward

This has what to do with fan pressure? :o

And it's full of ridiculouslty bad creatures that basically look like 2d creatures rendered in 3d, only without the believability

Even if you were anything approaching right, I still don't see what this, a unique trait attributed to Retro studios design approach alone, has to do with fan pressure.

I am at a loss to explain why a rubbish strafing system and scanning system, and all that back tracking, not to mention all the bosses and shitty creature designs, appalling artwork and so on.

And you'll be at a loss forever more, because none of this can be attributed to fan pressure. None of these "problems" stem from a need to cater for fan expectations.

With that, follow this advice: the next time you feel the need to start a thread on the back of an abhorently flawed argument just so you can vent your anger...

Have a wank.

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I thought Metroid Prime was boring. I never could get into it, and I have to say that when I got it each time I put it on it felt like a chore.

Bored me senseless.

Then again I also hate Shenmue - which I found to be one of the most boring games in the history of gaming in my eyes.

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I'd try to take your inane and self-congratulatory ramblings in good humour were it not for my nagging suspicion that you really do believe you're word is gospel and your vitriol is born of frustration rather than a minority opinion that the majority don't share.

Well that's because you secretly know I'm right.

Your whole argument is flawed: if fan pressure is the sole reason that franchises go the way of the dodo, then why make MP first person? All of the "faults" you've ranted about are the crux of gameplay mechanics unique to MP and Retro Studios.

No no, the cart goes after the horse.

What I'm saying in pretty unclear and rambling English is that fan loyalty is the reason that average-to-poor games like MP get high praise and become darlings of the scene. Sort of the same reasons that the latter Matrix films do, or that George Lucas still has legions of fans despite having made two of the worst films of modern times in the last 5 years.

It's the twin combination of star-gazing reveries about the snes and a death-like grip on things wanting to be like they were in the good old days that causes the majority of blindness about MP. I accept that some people have enjoyed the game on face value, but some people enjoy any game on face value no matter how bad or good.

Why would a game company ever want to make anything new ever again when it seems like so many of their fans will happily swallow and gargle whatever recreation they put out.

"Crux of unique gameplay" or just crappy control scheme? I plum for the latter. I've played many fps games now, on console and PC. I know full well that it is possible to use two sticks to move and shoot and so on without the need for awkward reliance on triggers to lock or hold up and down or strafe. And then there's the scanning. Which is basically the same thing as any sort of switch-pushing mechanism only it takes longer, while you sit there and watch it do its thing.

These elements may be unique. However unique they are, they are still shit though.

This has what to do with fan pressure?  :blink:

Even if you were anything approaching right, I still don't see what this, a unique trait attributed to Retro studios design approach alone, has to do with fan pressure.

It's status as a highly praised game has everything to do with fan pressure.

Fandom has not necessarily caused such poor quality work. Fandom has held it up as being worth of awards and shit. Which is clearly a joke.

Play Metroid, play Halo. Halo is vastly better and shows Metroid's unique gameplay up very badly. Halo is worthy of the respect that it gets.

With that, follow this advice: the next time you feel the need to start a thread on the back of an abhorently flawed argument just so you can vent your anger...

And next time you want to artfully deconstruct someone's argument, you should read it rather than reading what you want into it.

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Wow, that some presumptuous post there.

But, riddle me this, neuro. Metroid Prime is the first Metroid game I've ever played. Never had a Nes or a Snes. And I fucking loved it. 2nd favourite game of this generation, bar Halo. So why would I be suffering from fanboy delusions and rose tinted glasses since this was my first taste of the Metroid universe?

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"Crux of unique gameplay" or just crappy control scheme? I plum for the latter. I've played many fps games now, on console and PC. I know full well that it is possible to use two sticks to move and shoot and so on without the need for awkward reliance on triggers to lock or hold up and down or strafe.

Here lies the core flaw with your argument - comparing Metroid Prime to other FPS games you've played just because it's from a first person perspective.

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Metroid Prime was my first Metroid game and I loved every second of it. From the smooth controls to the combat system to the bosses. I loved everything about it.

Oh and I hate GTA3. It bored me rigid.

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I can't be the only one who imagined the "fanboys" who were the ones getting upset by Metroid Prime (prior to it's release)? Same with Zelda: WW.

Besides, if it were down to fanboy pressure, surely MP would have adopted a standard strafe/move control method?

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I thought Metroid Prime was boring. I never could get into it, and I have to say that when I got it each time I put it on it felt like a chore.

Bored me senseless.

Then again I also hate Shenmue - which I found to be one of the most boring games in the history of gaming in my eyes.

Phelan mate, I've always seen you as man of taste but.....you're very wrong here.

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Here lies the core flaw with your argument - comparing Metroid Prime to other FPS games you've played just because it's from a first person perspective.

You mean that because I can see it done much more fluidly in some other games, it doesn't count? That's bullshit. Just because Metroid does it differently doesn't mean it shouldn't be held to the same standard. And MP is basically an fps, except for the Super Monkey Ball bits.

It's like saying that you couldn't compare the driving of a game that uses trigger buttons to slow-and-steer (like wipeout) with one that uses more conventional brake buttons. Of course you can.

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You mean that because I can see it done much more fluidly in some other games, it doesn't count? That's bullshit. Just because Metroid does it differently doesn't mean it shouldn't be held to the same standard. And MP is basically an fps, except for the Super Monkey Ball bits.

You've seen single stick control and lock-on aiming done more fluidly? Which games would that be in?

As for "And MP is basically an fps"... :blink:

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Guest nomenclature

Durr! Everyone knows Metroid Prime isn't a first person shooter: it's obviously a first person backtracking simulator.

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Metroid Prime was the first Metroid game I played properly. I quite liked it for a while but thought it was still seriously over-rated by Edge magazine and others.

After a while though I just couldn't bring myself to play it anymore due to the ridiculous ammount of; backtracking, getting lost, looking at map, backtracking again, making coffee, sighing, and then backtracking again! It's just too painful to be called enjoyable.

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"Crux of unique gameplay" or just crappy control scheme? I plum for the latter. I've played many fps games now, on console and PC. I know full well that it is possible to use two sticks to move and shoot and so on without the need for awkward reliance on triggers to lock or hold up and down or strafe. And then there's the scanning. Which is basically the same thing as any sort of switch-pushing mechanism only it takes longer, while you sit there and watch it do its thing.

And I've played many, many hours of pc fps games, as well as their duel stick console equavalents without difficulty, yet I can still play Metroid Prime like a piano.

You may not be able to comprehend the logic behind Primes control scheme, but your inability to control the game is absolutely unequivocably 100% your fault.

You may not like Prime, and that's 100% OK since for one game to appeal to everyone is naturally impossible, but calling it "average to poor" and a "crock of shit" is just absolutely farcical and suggests to me that you have no deeper insight other than to start a fight. If it doesn't appeal, then play something else from the broad and wonderful spectrum of gaming and stop insulting those found it to be utterly wonderful.

Example, I wasn't particularely enamoured by Ico or Rez, but I don't think they are "poor" games by any stretch of the imagination, they are simply not for me, therefore I play something that does appeal. be it Prince of Persia or Halo or (horror of horrors!) Metroid Prime.

Play Metroid, play Halo. Halo is vastly better and shows Metroid's unique gameplay up very badly. Halo is worthy of the respect that it gets.

Oh, it's like that is it? :blink:

god help us!

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Phelan mate, I've always seen you as man of taste but.....you're very wrong here.

Oh please, any game can be seen as "boring" if you strip it down to its barest bones, it's just that some people find certain types of boredom more appealing than others. :blink:

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*urrrgrkk* Don't understand. I'm pretty open minded about videogames taking different visual/gameplay paths. The Metroid Prime "lock-on" doobry was a bit weird to get used to, but once you got it, it was fantastic. Why doesn't more FPSs adopt this technique? Well, sounds a bit *shock* radical. Best to go for the tried-and-tested route. The route that works. The boring route.

I was disappointed with the fact that Zelda wasn't going to look like the early Gamecube demo, though I fell in love with the cel-shaded look early on. Plus those googly eyes of his have a purpose too - looking for stuff you can't see. Ace. I still have happy memories of the first cavern, looks absolutely wonderful.

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Metroid Prime totally overthrew my expectations of what Metroid would be like in 3D by having clunky, clumsy jumping and combat and very few intricate block puzzles of any kind.

It rocked in entirely new ways- the scanning system, the visors, the very fresh bosses...

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Seriously, how old are you Neuromancer? If I see you post any 6th Form Poetry in off-topic, my suspicions will be confirmed.

And next time you want to artfully deconstruct someone's argument, you should read it rather than reading what you want into it.

I think I did a pretty good job especially given that:

What I'm saying in pretty unclear and rambling English

An argument afforded the luxury of being so ambiguous that it essentially allows you to backtrack and rewrite your story?

HOW CONVENIENT!!!!!111one11one11!!!!

Even if that were an acceptable faux pas, I could hardly be blamed for that, could I, Grumble Guts?

So, let's take you to task on your ammended but all the same flawed argument (they should have an official position made up for you...something like

FLAW MANAGER!!!111one!!!111roflmaobrbafaik).

What I'm saying in pretty unclear and rambling English is that fan loyalty is the reason that average-to-poor games like MP get high praise and become darlings of the scene

There is no conspiracy - I enjoyed it as did many, many others - in most cases without having played another metroid game and using it as a benchmark. No, I suspect your inability to enjoy MP stems from this next quote:

Play Metroid, play Halo. Halo is vastly better and shows Metroid's unique gameplay up very badly. Halo is worthy of the respect that it gets.

Halo is vastly different from Metroid Prime. In that they are different games. are Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy comparable because they both use a third person perspective?

Sprechen sie H4rDc0re? boom boom boom boom

You seem to think MP was envisioned as a Halo rip off and fell short of the mark. Either that, or you expect every first person shooter to be Halo. Saying that though, I'll echo what others have said: Metroid might be viewed from the first person perspective, but it plays nothing like its genre mates. Much Like Tomb Raider and Gun Valkyrie are completely different games, despite sharing the same viewpoint.

Besides, plenty of game series receiving the 21st century update have been panned, despite earlier success.

Ultimately and unequivocally, I've narrowed you down to one of three things:

1.) Ignorant

2.) Stupid

3.) argumentative

Why else would everyone posting in this forum be repeating what's already been said? Because you're too bloody (it's decision time! top middle or bottom) to admit your argument is utterly baseless and at best, controversial. It lacks credibility, factual basis and appears to be nothing more than an attempt to go against the grain.

Why would a game company ever want to make anything new ever again when it seems like so many of their fans will happily swallow and gargle whatever recreation they put out.

But they don't. The majority of Castlevania fans were up in arms when Lament of Innocence got released because it "wasn't castlevania" enough. Proof enough that fans aren't so blinded by loyalty that they'll accept anything that gets put on their plate.

So there's a precedent that completely contradicts the above quoted argument.

If you keep contradicting yourself and your already flimsy argument Neuromancer, I'll be forced to label this thread as being pointless, self-absorbed and sensationalist.

Which, If I'm being honest, I did from the opening post. Shame, dat.

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