Anime

[Mr.Jeff]

I hear Genshiken is good, I've never watched it though, should I? Which subs are good?

Genshiken's very very good. I can't remember who did the first series for subs but I think the first episodes were a team effort with solar and someone. A look on isohunt or tokyotosho will likely find it. Then there's a 3 part ova series done by gg which links the first series and the second series which is being done by db subs and another by sudo subs.

[Kyouma]

What happens at the end? I've completely forgotten. ...and what does

nerfed

mean?

Originally Posted by Ifurita's Fan

Before anyone gets the wrong idea about this, No, this is not a rant having to do with one character or another... this is about us... the fans... and why I feel that this chapter will be remembered for the damage it did to the storyline, rather than what it revealed about it.

Mind you, I'm dead serious about the points I'm going to bring up, so if you think that this is time to go trolling, think again. Take any petty Naruto-tardism or Sasuke-tardism elsewhere.

This has nothing to do with which characters I like or dislike (and yes, I do like Sasuke as well as Naruto... I just like them as they were portrayed in part I, not these pathetic imitations we're having foisted off on us) and has everything to do how baddly I feel Kishimoto screwed up with this chapter and how the actions he's dictated for his characters have damaged the story itself.

Now, myself, I am usually loathed to say like this. That the author "messed up baddly"... inserting my opinion as somehow being superior to the Manga-kas... I mean it's his story for God's sake. But I do feel that in this case, it is warrented because of how it was done, not what was done. This is me being critical of how Kishimoto executed a portion of the story, not what he did in it.

I mean I don't think anyone actually expected Sasuke to get defeated here. I mean if he did, then it would seriously mess up that portion of the story.

I did expect, however, that we'd have seen some indication that the last 2.5 years had not been a complete and utter waste of time for Naruto and Sakura at the very least.

Now, Kishimoto has stated that Sasuke is his favorite character, which is perfectly fine. Every author has their favored characters. What's bad however is when the author steps beyond liking that character and enters the realm of "fanw***". Which is what 309 looks like, a bad fanw***.

If you're a fan of fiction based on the works of others, you know a fan w*** when you see one. It's were the author takes their favored character, and showers them with plot devices designed purely to showcase and enhance what the author feels is "cool" about that character, and does so at the needless expense of diminishing or damaging the other characters that are not so favored.

I feel that it's important to point out that for the first part of the series, Kishimoto did a superb job of putting that favoritism to one side and instead developing all the characters, which served to greatly endear all those characters to the readers. In Part II Kishimoto has been failing on this score for a while now, and this chapter more of less took this dismal behavior and codified it.

Sasuke's quiet intensity, Naruto's brash need to live life to the fullest, Sakura's coming to terms with being the most she could, even Shikamaru's lazy cloud gazing comtemplativeness (I know I'm skipping a whole lot of characters here, no disrepect is intended) were all showcased in a fun, entertaining and most of all endearing and interesting way. And the story flourished as a result.

If that was the theme of part I, the theme of part II is "Use all the other characters to showcase Sasuke and diminish them all as a result."

In my opinion, 309 has seriously damaged this manga, and the fanbase as well because Kishimoto forgot a cardinal rule in all shonen stories.

"Never, EVER, turn the other characters into inanimate and pathetic punching bags, just to make your favorite character look cool."

Now, let's take a moment to mention the Manga Bleach to draw a marked contrast.

In Bleach, Rukia's brother (Kuchiki Byakuya) watched as Kurosaki Ichigo fought Abarai Renji in their first encounter. He then faced off againt Ichigo and defeated him. Likewise, in their encounter in the Soul Society, before Ichigo did his Bankai training, Ichigo faced Byakuya again... and here's the key point, Ichigo was woefully beneath him in skill... but was fully ready to face him and die if needed. He was an intense and wonderful character because of this. This is the same sort of character trait that Naruto exhibited when he fought Gaara in part I,and part of why I liked him so much, he had tenacity and a willingness to give it his all. The same was true of Sasuke back then as well. When they did the tree climbing exercise, when Sasuke and Naruto each fought Gaara... they each gave it their all and it felt good to read it.

"He didn't know if he'd live or die, but he was ready to fight, and give his life and his all."

Note the "he" there, I could just as easily be talking about Naruto as I am about Sasuke.

Contrast this with 309, where we end with Naruto looking like he's ready to cry at his own pathetic helplessness. Yes, that's right... pathetic helplessness... and you see what's missing and why I say that this chapter was "the chapter that failed the fans and damaged the story".

Naruto should have stood on his own two feet and if the plot demanded it...lost honorably. Being turned into a thing... a prop set there by the author to be beat on to make Sasuke "look cool" is just infuriating.

In this "fight" (if you could even call it a "fight" except in a sarcastic way) Yamato did nothing, Sai did nothing, Naruto did nothing, and Sakura did NOTHING. They stood around and let Sasuke basically dominate and pound on them without any resistance whatsoever.

The other characters were shown to simply stand around and passively let him "have his way" with them as though even the concept of trying to fight him was futile. This might be fun for some fan who has a 4th grade mentality and who just wants to watch Sasuke "pwn" people... but for people who want a story, this did serious and significant damage to the credibility of the other characters.

In Bleach, while the readers knew Ichigo would die if he fought Byakuya, they saw that at least he tried his hardest. Kishimoto didn't even give the other characters that much.

The way I see things, there's nothing wrong with a defeat if you tried your best and gave it your all. Since Kishimoto didn't even give the other characters this, he stopped showing the other characters any sort of respect.

So now, even if he came back and did 20 arcs spotlighting Naruto or Sakura training like a demon and showing them slaughtering all the Akatsuki individually, he's still shown then as being pointless and pathetic... and quitters. When they finally faced Sasuke... they stood around and did nothing.

What should have happened, is there should have been a fight... the fight should have shown that the last 2.5 years were not a waste of time for Sakura and Naruto... and that even if they were defeated, that at least they tried.

As it was, none of that happened.

This is why I think that this chapter will be remembered as the chapter that Kishimoto failed the fans, and damaged the story, possibly beyond recovery. Because Kishimoto showcased Sasuke, while using the other characters like props... and damaging them to elevate Sasuke.

Not once in 308 chapters have I ever considered abandoning the Manga... 309 has made me consider doing so. That's how bad this chapter was, in my opinion.

Also, by nerfed I meant Naruto literally learnt barely anything compared to the rest of the characters of the 2.5 year timeskip. He learned a bigger rasengan

which he replaces with an ever bigger one soon enough anyway

. He learnt how to break out of small genjutsus, and the first time he tries to do this PTS he fails, and never tries it again. His speed doesn't improve much, he doesn't learn any other new things, he's losing more control to the kyuubi.

All of this while Sakura rises from uselessness to a medic who is better than anyone in the entire of Suna, and one of the elites of Konoha. All of this while Sasuke becomes a kage level shinobi. Heck, even Kakashi improves a hell of a lot. I wasn't expecting him to come back and annihilate everyone, but he arguably came back worse than when he went.

[imp]

Genshiken's very very good. I can't remember who did the first series for subs but I think the first episodes were a team effort with solar and someone. A look on isohunt or tokyotosho will likely find it. Then there's a 3 part ova series done by gg which links the first series and the second series which is being done by db subs and another by sudo subs.

cheers, you're invaluable.

And Piro: I thought it might have been that. I didn't think it had that much of a backlash though. I don't think I've ever liked Naruto enough to care quite that much! I never even thought about the time skip in terms of what Naruto hasn't learnt. I might go back and read it again now though. Ahh, that guy's argument made me chuckle a little though, comparing bad bits of Naruto to when Bleach was fairly good, considering that Bleach is just horrible now.

[Mr.Jeff]

cheers, you're invaluable.

considering that Bleach is just horrible now.

I aim to please

Bleach is just abominable right now although that said, the entire setup took a dive when the soul society arc finished with few high points since then. I think this is down to it having far, far too many characters to deal with. With so many, it's hard to focus on any one of them and actually explore the character and their development. That said however, the latest bleach chapter was mildly good although I have no doubt they'll milk the current setup for another year or so.

One Piece on the other hand is just win although I am glad they're nearing the end of the current manga arc.(hopefully)

[Kyouma]

cheers, you're invaluable.

And Piro: I thought it might have been that. I didn't think it had that much of a backlash though. I don't think I've ever liked Naruto enough to care quite that much! I never even thought about the time skip in terms of what Naruto hasn't learnt. I might go back and read it again now though. Ahh, that guy's argument made me chuckle a little though, comparing bad bits of Naruto to when Bleach was fairly good, considering that Bleach is just horrible now.

I read all of the bleach manga from where the anime is now to where the manga is at, and I didn't think it was that bad. Probably because i read it all in one go. The recent chapters have been good in my opinion. And Nel is one of my favourite characters in Bleach now

The Naruto manga has gotten slightly better recently as well, although Pein is a horrible villain....

Gurren Lagann Life Lessons

[Ryan]

Bleach is a bit meh, relying too much on deus ex, imho.

One Piece is ace, really love the teamwork arc ;-) Gunna re-read it once it's over with the HQ scans, as there's so much going on you miss it on the LQ/MQs.

Naruto's okayish, but they've totally fecked up his development. He's

the son of the 3rd and title character ffs

so he should be learning a far greater range of moves. But no, he's only learnt a bigger rasengen whilst Sasuke learns a billion new moves.

[imp]

I agree with all of you guys, especially about the deus ex machinas. Although I thought the arrival of the captains in Bleach would be a little more exciting; I was hoping for some captains we haven't really seen fight before, like the two dual wielding guys.

Pain does suck though, I have a horrible feeling Jiraiya is going to die, it would be a shame to kill off one of the more interesting characters though. It probably won't be shown for a while if he does die, since two other fights are just starting.

Yeah, One Piece is all kinds of win, but yeah, I think this arc has run its course. Time to find out what's going on with Blackbeard/Ace and Whitebeard/Shanks!

oh and the GL rules were totally lol-tastic.

[Kyouma]

I agree with all of you guys, especially about the deus ex machinas. Although I thought the arrival of the captains in Bleach would be a little more exciting; I was hoping for some captains we haven't really seen fight before, like the two dual wielding guys.

Pain does suck though, I have a horrible feeling Jiraiya is going to die, it would be a shame to kill off one of the more interesting characters though. It probably won't be shown for a while if he does die, since two other fights are just starting.

Yeah, One Piece is all kinds of win, but yeah, I think this arc has run its course. Time to find out what's going on with Blackbeard/Ace and Whitebeard/Shanks!

oh and the GL rules were totally lol-tastic.

I might look into one piece then, people have hyped it a fair amount.

-Naruto Manga Spoilers-

Jiraiya is dead. He did all that shit pre-battle "in case he died", the ominous omen of the sandaime's face cracking (it cracked day before sandaime died too), Jiraiya saying the only way for him to be usefull is for "old coots like him to die" or something similar.

And the latest chapter with Tsunade and Shizune talking about him, just confirmed it. He's beyond dead really.

-Naruto Manga Spoilers-

[Mr.Jeff]

I might look into one piece then, people have hyped it a fair amount.

Do it do it do it do it DO IT. But for the love of god read the manga rather than watching the anime.

[imp]

I might look into one piece then, people have hyped it a fair amount.

Jiraiya is dead. He did all that shit pre-battle "in case he died", the ominous omen of the sandaime's face cracking (it cracked day before sandaime died too), Jiraiya saying the only way for him to be usefull is for "old coots like him to die" or something similar.

And the latest chapter with Tsunade and Shizune talking about him, just confirmed it. He's beyond dead really.

Yeah, you're probably right, I certainly don't think he ever had a chance of winning, but who IS going to take down Pain? He's supposedly the most powerful shinobi in the Naruto world isn't he? I mean, unless they (inevitably) pop out something that's better than eye techniques.

Do check out One Piece though, there's a lot of it to read, but don't let that discourage you! I'm sure you can find some old posts in this thread where I gush about it if you need any convincing. Or see Mr Jeff's swift conversion!

[Kyouma]

Yeah, you're probably right, I certainly don't think he ever had a chance of winning, but who IS going to take down Pain? He's supposedly the most powerful shinobi in the Naruto world isn't he? I mean, unless they (inevitably) pop out something that's better than eye techniques.

Do check out One Piece though, there's a lot of it to read, but don't let that discourage you! I'm sure you can find some old posts in this thread where I gush about it if you need any convincing. Or see Mr Jeff's swift conversion!

Will download some chapters tonight then

-Naruto Manga Spoilers-

Im not sure if Pein will be the final villain tbh, it's shaping up for it to be Uchiha Madara. I think Naruto will get kyuubi extracted, "die", but Tsunade will revive him at the cost of her own life. There will be an arc where he finally gets pumped up, fuelled by the death of Jiraiya he will fight on. Alternatively, "The Key" jiraiya left him will enable him to full use kyuubi's powers, and lay the smack down on Pein.

I think he and Sasuke will team up to defeat Madara.

Although I do suspect there is a conspiracy behind everything. It's a bit co-incidental Kyuubi attacked on the exact day Naruto was born, and Jiraiya's flashback to Yondaime makes Yondy seem a bit suspicous. Also, there are theories of Danzou being Tobi flying around all over the place.

-End Spoilers-

[Ryan]

Naruto manga spoilers.

Tobi is Madara, no question about it.

Jiyara will 'die', but it'll be the same kinda 'death' as Orichimaru - we all know that he'll come back in some form or other.

They can't just kill him after having it rubbed in so blatantly.

Hopefully, Naruto'll be the 'child of prophesy', NOT Pain.

Get the feeling that the manga's in a transition at the moment, they're going to have another set of baddies turn up. My thought of it was that it'd be the baddies lead by Sasuke, but in the end I don't think that'll happen. It's being set up for Madara being the real 'boss' of Atasuke, or something like that (i.e. he's the emperor to Pein's Vadar).

You can see a big power up for Naruto coming in the form of whatever this 'key' thing is too. Wonder when he'll use that. After the next timeskip in 5 years, maybe?

[Mr.Jeff]

So is it actually worth reading the Naruto manga? I read it originally before but got up to

The bit just after the fight where Gaara is revived and the new Sasulol replacement is brought in to Naruto and Sakura's team. Sort of lost the will to read after that massive akatsuki fight lead to nothing in particular

. Basically, is it less dull than Bleach at the moment?

[Zappster]

Do it do it do it do it DO IT. But for the love of god read the manga rather than watching the anime.

I dunno. The anime is pretty damn good too. I suppose the manga could be gotten through quicker.

[Mr.Jeff]

I dunno. The anime is pretty damn good too. I suppose the manga could be gotten through quicker.

The manga thing may just be personal taste due to having watched the first episode and dying inside at the voice actor choices but I was talking with a friend of mine who's seen both and she reckons that the manga has a slightly more serious edge as it were compared to the anime. Maybe serious isn't the right word but less of the idiotic comedy and more of the proper one piece humour. That and some of the jokes from the manga just don't transfer over which is a shame.

Still, it's 6 and half a dozen really. Mainly though, the manga will save you time in aqquiring compared to the 316 odd episodes.

[Zappster]

You really should watch past that point. I remember the early one piece episodes weren't brilliant even the voice acting. They certainly find their stride later on though (which coincidentally was around episode 30 (arlong park) at which point I was hooked) and I can't really fault any of the choices now having seen most of it, in fact I think I love all the choices. Maybe it's just getting used to them after however many episodes but I honestly could not imagine anyone else playing those roles now. Especially when they get to some of the more memorable scenes from the manga such as the big fights. That's when I think it really comes into its own. The music, voice work, animation (mostly, it does have its low points) etc.. just really bring it to life. It's actually one of the few complaints I can't believe people (haven't seen many mind) level at the anime. I'd get the stuff about the filler episodes and how they've stretched the more recent episodes out with loads of recaps but that...

As for the other stuff I wasn't aware there were any changes to it really other than the filler episodes they've had in the anime. Perhaps some of the diehard one piece fanatics can comment on it but I always thought it was pretty much an exact replication of the manga down to the last panel.

[Dandy_Sephy]

Will you people properly tag your spoilers please. You guys are lucky im not planning to hunt you down as I narrowly missed reading them

[Retroid]

The end of the Crocodile saga was when I knew One Piece was the series for me I really liked it before but it was just some of the battles at the end were magnificent, pure hair sticking up on the back of your neck moments. loved most of the arks since and the 6th One Piece movie would easily hold it's own without the series.

[Ryan]

The manga thing may just be personal taste due to having watched the first episode and dying inside at the voice actor choices but I was talking with a friend of mine who's seen both and she reckons that the manga has a slightly more serious edge as it were compared to the anime. Maybe serious isn't the right word but less of the idiotic comedy and more of the proper one piece humour. That and some of the jokes from the manga just don't transfer over which is a shame.

Still, it's 6 and half a dozen really. Mainly though, the manga will save you time in aqquiring compared to the 316 odd episodes.

Were you watching the western dub? Voice actors for the original were excellent, imho.

[Mr.Jeff]

Were you watching the western dub? Voice actors for the original were excellent, imho.

Nope, it was the original sub version although seeing 15 seconds of the western dub was what made me avoid One Piece for so long. I think my dislike of the va's is probably down to having read the series 3 times before touching the anime. By that point, in my own head, all the characters had their own voices and to have someone else do it just spoiled it.

Edit: New claymore chapter out. Woo!

[imp]

You really should watch past that point. I remember the early one piece episodes weren't brilliant even the voice acting. They certainly find their stride later on though (which coincidentally was around episode 30 (arlong park) at which point I was hooked) and I can't really fault any of the choices now having seen most of it, in fact I think I love all the choices. Maybe it's just getting used to them after however many episodes but I honestly could not imagine anyone else playing those roles now. Especially when they get to some of the more memorable scenes from the manga such as the big fights. That's when I think it really comes into its own. The music, voice work, animation (mostly, it does have its low points) etc.. just really bring it to life. It's actually one of the few complaints I can't believe people (haven't seen many mind) level at the anime. I'd get the stuff about the filler episodes and how they've stretched the more recent episodes out with loads of recaps but that...

As for the other stuff I wasn't aware there were any changes to it really other than the filler episodes they've had in the anime. Perhaps some of the diehard one piece fanatics can comment on it but I always thought it was pretty much an exact replication of the manga down to the last panel.

This is all true. Especially about Arlong Park and the voice actors. I think the casting choices are superb. I found Luffy weird at first, but now I can only hear him sounding like that. I'm quite excited to find out what Brooke is going to sound like actually! Unfortunately the anime has gone a little wonky since the water 7 arc, especially in the quality of the animation, but before that, it's all gold... except most of the filler (which isn't a lot, by general standards). All the OPs have been rubbish for aaaaages now though. Oh well.

Anyway - Dennou 22 is out, time to watch it!

EDIT: oh, although I think Naruto has always been a bit better than Bleach, it's been the far more interesting of the two for the last 50 or so chapters. Or since both mangas finished their training arcs anyway.

[Kyouma]

Naruto manga spoilers.

Tobi is Madara, no question about it.

Jiyara will 'die', but it'll be the same kinda 'death' as Orichimaru - we all know that he'll come back in some form or other.

They can't just kill him after having it rubbed in so blatantly.

Hopefully, Naruto'll be the 'child of prophesy', NOT Pain.

Get the feeling that the manga's in a transition at the moment, they're going to have another set of baddies turn up. My thought of it was that it'd be the baddies lead by Sasuke, but in the end I don't think that'll happen. It's being set up for Madara being the real 'boss' of Atasuke, or something like that (i.e. he's the emperor to Pein's Vadar).

You can see a big power up for Naruto coming in the form of whatever this 'key' thing is too. Wonder when he'll use that. After the next timeskip in 5 years, maybe?

Naruto Manga Spoilers

Tobi is Madara, but it is widely believed he is inhabiting Obito's body at the moment, and I think he MAY turn out to be posing as Danzou. I very much doubt Jiraiya won't stay dead. The only reason Oro didn't was because Kabuto transplanted him into his body, and Sasuke "Absorbed" Oro's soul. When Pein kills Jiraiya, nothing like that will happen unless it's a Ben Kenobi moment.

I don't want to see an Uchiha as the final villain, I really don't, the manga shouldn't have been centered around them, but it looks like Madara will be in some way the "final" villain.

Also, there won't be another timeskip. Kishimoto himself stated this, and you must be able to see that the manga is somewhat drawing to a close. It'll probably be over within 100 chapters.

[Dandy_Sephy]

Don't suppose you can do the older ones too please Piro? (at least the one at the top of the page)

Ta

[Djx]

Will you people properly tag your spoilers please. You guys are lucky im not planning to hunt you down as I narrowly missed reading them

This. Perhaps we need a manga thread.

As for the current crop of mangas I'm following (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Eyeshield 21 and D-Gray Man), They're ace.

They're all really entertaining and considering I'm reading and enjoying them for nowt, I'm not going to criticise them.

Can't find much fault in the first place.

If you're not enjoying a particular manga, Just find a new one to read for the time being.

All the mangas I listed above are more enjoyable in marathon reading sessions anyway.

[Dandy_Sephy]

This. Perhaps we need a manga thread.

I thought there was one.

Thanks to the people who spoiler tagged their posts upon my demand request

[Retroid]

I'm liking Monster at the mo, 5 episodes in and it's really good - my only complaint really is the overly profound comments people make sometimes, it kind of pulls you out story a bit and makes you think of them less as characters and more like plot devices. I hate it when a person says something unnatural to get across the story - I understand why it happens but still .

[Djx]

I thought there was one.

Nope. Not yet. I gave up my battle against anime spoilers in this thread and just started reading the mangas instead.

Hopefully you'll fare better in avoiding them.

[Dandy_Sephy]

Nope. Not yet.

The RLLMUK Manga thread

[Mr.Jeff]

Kamina returns in another series!

Only as a brief cameo because some of the people/studio worked on TTGL though.

[Zappster]

Oh Edo Rocket! ?

If so another show I should be watching