Working with videogames

[pretentious_helvetica]

Remember that time you said I hsould be in the industry?

Don't do it! Nice to see we patched things up on e-mail though...

I have actually written a mini-journal on the first game I worked on, been thinking of putting it online and changing the names to protect the cockless. Er, I mean, innocent. Either that or a Flash-type animation.

It would definitely be like The Office though... scary now I think about it.

[Zeroborta]

Yes that's right. The last 7+ years didn't happen.

What a strange thing to say.

I don't know how you could take offence from what I said. It was a mere statement, an ironical one at that, suggesting that if tight, close, passionate dev teams can't make it how on earth could large scale ones lined with bureaucratic nonsense could ever be viable? but as usual...I can't word complex thoughts to save my life! sorry

[pretentious_helvetica]

I want to be part of a tight, close, passionate dev team again.

[Zeroborta]

I don't know how you could take offence from what I said. It was a mere statement

Actually, I understand and accept how you interpreted it. I don’t know what I was thinking at the time…but typical Zero say/do something stupid then apologise straight after!

[InsideOutBoy]

Surely thats illegal?!

I think it's just standard practise in the industry. It prevents people from suing if the next game a developer releases (unintentionally) uses similar ideas. That could happen, especially when most submitted designs are tailored to suit the developer in question.

From what I hear, most developers will just put any submitted designs straight in the bin unopened. If a company claims ownership to every submitted design, they can get around it. It’s either that or nothing.

[footle]

See Neil Gamain's blog, Tad Williams' website etc for the contortions authors have to go through to avoid "stealing my ideas" claims.

--

As for working hours, it'd be interesting to do a study of bugs-per-working-hour in one of these coding sweatshops.

If you're tired, you're not thinking clearly.

If you're not thinking clearly, you're buggering the code up.

[JPickford (retired mod)]

I think it's just standard practise in the industry. It prevents people from suing if the next game a developer releases (unintentionally) uses similar ideas. That could happen, especially when most submitted designs are tailored to suit the developer in question.

It's by no means standard practice.

Generally as a developer we refuse to accept ANY concepts or game designs from outside people. This is for the legal reasons you mention.

I certainly wouldn't claim ownership of anything anyone brought to an interview. Although there is the chance of laying yourself open to a lawsuit if the company ever (or already was) develops something similar.

It's sounds like Rare are being hyper-cautious; but they are likely a bigger target to litigation than my company ever was.

From what I hear, most developers will just put any submitted designs straight in the bin unopened.

Correct.

[Zeroborta]

From what I hear, most developers will just put any submitted designs straight in the bin unopened.

I don't understand why people still do this. I know countless people who send out design documents hoping that x company would recognise their talent and not only employ them but undertake their concept. I've known for years that game ideas come mostly from within a dev group.

I am currently working on a website dedicated to game mechanics and level design. Surely if you were to send a cd with a presentation about prototype game mechanics for existing genres a company would be interested a lot more. The ip issue would still be relevant but not to the same extent as original concepts. Another thing the website will cover are critiques/evaluations of current games/genres/ popular game mechanics as well.

[tiedtiger]

I don't understand why people still do this. I know countless people who send out design documents hoping that x company would recognise their talent and not only employ them but undertake their concept. I've known for years that game ideas come mostly from within a dev group.

I am currently working on a website dedicated to game mechanics and level design. Surely if you were to send a cd with a presentation about prototype game mechanics for existing genres a company would be interested a lot more. The ip issue would still be relevant but not to the same extent as original concepts. Another thing the website will cover are critiques/evaluations of current games/genres/ popular game mechanics as well.

It's for a couple of reasons.

One, some developers are scared to death that they'd get sued if they even opened such a design. However, this can easily be taken care of with a half competent standard disclosure/terms of acceptance that the author of the doc would sign.

Two, much more importantly, is that it kind of opens the doors to wads of endless crap. Most professional design docs and stuff are pretty bad to read as it is, and so nobody wants to go through endless envelopes of orcs and elves rts's or The NEXT DOOM!!

Still, it's a big problem for the industry that it doesn't really have any means of accepting outside ideas that aren't full fledged demos. Even making demos these days is an expensive business, so the numbers of realistic new ideas on show is shrinking. It's a downward spiral.

It's for these and several similar reasons that I've decided that the games industry is both bullshit and fucked. A bullshit place to work, and ultimately fucked beyond repair.

Of course, what I'm going to do next is a whole other set of problems.

[Zeroborta]

don't understand why people still do this.

why people send in design concepts?

Two, much more importantly, is that it kind of opens the doors to wads of endless crap. Most professional design docs and stuff are pretty bad to read as it is, and so nobody wants to go through endless envelopes of orcs and elves rts's or The NEXT DOOM!!

Why send documents? There is often a lack of imagination...instinctively....I wouldn't ever send something I knew the masses where doing. It pays a lot if one were to use their imagination/initiative and do something unique...it really isn’t very difficult.

I had a seminar...not so long ago showcasing work, portfolio work, that got artists into the industry. One included a very simple, small (not many assets, in fact two basic characters and a white background) avi where two bears were animated. Sure it looked professional...but even I with low animation experience could have pulled it off, though in twice the time. The point is to submit work, demo which is polished and shows flair/imagination etc.

Also...people should know by now that it is next to impossible to land a designer's job by submitting concepts.

[northy]

Does anyone here work for Codemasters? Decent company to work for?

[Ste Pickford]

I don't understand why people still do this. I know countless people who send out design documents hoping that x company would recognise their talent and not only employ them but undertake their concept. I've known for years that game ideas come mostly from within a dev group.

I am currently working on a website dedicated to game mechanics and level design. Surely if you were to send a cd with a presentation about prototype game mechanics for existing genres a company would be interested a lot more. The ip issue would still be relevant but not to the same extent as original concepts. Another thing the website will cover are critiques/evaluations of current games/genres/ popular game mechanics as well.

Games developers are not short of original game concepts, and there are virtually no positions available as game designer (as opposed to level designer), and if there were they would probably be a promotion for an existing employee.

Why would they risk possible lawsuits / strangers claiming their ideas have been ripped off, or mess about with NDAs for every kid who wants to send in a game idea, or have someone employed to open and read all these things, when they are not short of ideas in the first place?

[pretentious_helvetica]

Does anyone here work for Codemasters? Decent company to work for?

Hmm. I was scared off by their freakish interview technique which involves you drawing rally cars until your eyes bleed. I see your avatar and I too remember Dizzy. Dizzy is now dead in the eyes of Codies. All they want is racing games, racing games and more fucking racing games.

In the future there will be no character-based games. Or jetpacks.

[scottcr]

oh how I wish that the codies would resurect some of their classic franchises...

problem is.. they failed to capitalise on Dizzy during the 16bit and 32/64 bit console days so there's a whole target audience that they've missed out on now. Only folks who would recognise Dizzy now are us crusty cynical bunch.

As for going into games development, I can't speak for Games, however, I can speak for software development in general and from what I've heard on this forum and others. The same issues, the same bullshit and the same management wank. About 8 years ago I entered software straight out of uni, full of spunk.. (steady!) and raring to go. Now I'm a jaded team lead, discussing issues, itterating on schedule plans, attending meetings upon meetings and arguing with product management etc etc.

Don't get me wrong... when my jobs good... it's very good. I really enjoy getting stuck in and getting stuff done... but, Software is 90% people and 10% code....

[Nifta]

Hmm. I was scared off by their freakish interview technique which involves you drawing rally cars until your eyes bleed. I see your avatar and I too remember Dizzy. Dizzy is now dead in the eyes of Codies. All they want is racing games, racing games and more fucking racing games.

In the future there will be no character-based games. Or jetpacks.

I work at Codies. Yeah, the interview system isn't that 'standard'. The IQ test makes sense though wouldn't you agree? Probably better a sign of intelligence than a degree gives.

The drawing tests are only for artists, but to me make less sense. I know plenty of good artists who are great with a tablet or mouse, but can't hold a pencil to save their life. Racing cars are just one of the drawing tests. You're lucky you didn't get the 'farmyard animals' one. Hehe.

Not too bad to work for. Much more structured and regimented than other companies I'd worked for. But that's not a bad thing considering the absolute shambles and disorganisation of some places I've worked. Sitting around doodling and letting genius take it's time ain't all it's cracked up to be... especially when your game doesn't meet it's deadlines, so your company doesn't get paid by the publisher and you go out of business and lose your job...

It's most like a corporate IT company of all places I've worked at. But has all the corporate perks associated with it. Great support services, software and devkits when you need them, a cracking subsidised full-on canteen which does hot breakfasts all day.... And the overtime is the easiest of any place I've worked. 7:30 is the normal between beta and submission. An absolute crunch-time night rarely goes past nine. Which is refreshing.

[Nifta]

oh how I wish that the codies would resurect some of their classic franchises...

problem is.. they failed to capitalise on Dizzy during the 16bit and 32/64 bit console days so there's a whole target audience that they've missed out on now. Only folks who would recognise Dizzy now are us crusty cynical bunch.

The lack of Dizzy is down to an ongoing feud/argument between the Oliver Twins and the the Darling brothers over royalties from the original Dizzy games. They've had talks in the last few years, but never resolved them. Not really a secret, the info's been all over the net.

I know the Olivers are really keen to bring him back though. But then again Blitz are a little desperate right now from what I hear. As are most UK small-medium sized developers. At least they have a few signed games, unlike lots of others.

[Ed-E]

I don't understand why people still do this. I know countless people who send out design documents hoping that x company would recognise their talent and not only employ them but undertake their concept. I've known for years that game ideas come mostly from within a dev group.

I am currently working on a website dedicated to game mechanics and level design. Surely if you were to send a cd with a presentation about prototype game mechanics for existing genres a company would be interested a lot more. The ip issue would still be relevant but not to the same extent as original concepts. Another thing the website will cover are critiques/evaluations of current games/genres/ popular game mechanics as well.

I don't know if that's any better really. What WOULD be impressive is if you'd actually carried these designs/mechanics through to the end, by finding some programmers and artists on the net and collaberating. It's not as hard as you think it is, I managed to build up a small team a while back but it was my own lack of interest in the concept that caused the team to split. If you really want to do it, it's do-able.

THAT would be impressive.

[pretentious_helvetica]

...a cracking subsidised full-on canteen which does hot breakfasts all day....

I've just changed my mind about Codies...

[Number 28]

Don't laugh, but do either of your companies have university placement programmes?

[Velse]

IIRC, Manchester, where I study, have sent people to Codies in the past. We also have a (tenuous) link with Elixir, as a coder there is an ex student.

Most places apart from Codies and EA don't do Uni placements, but will happily recruit graduates. I think.

[ashleydb]

Where you doing it? I did one of those......

Full Sail in USA (www.FullSail.com)

What happened when you did yours? Or rather, did you get a job with it? And where from etc.

[Zeroborta]

Games developers are not short of original game concepts, and there are virtually no positions available as game designer (as opposed to level designer), and if there were they would probably be a promotion for an existing employee.

Why would they risk possible lawsuits / strangers claiming their ideas have been ripped off, or mess about with NDAs for every kid who wants to send in a game idea, or have someone employed to open and read all these things, when they are not short of ideas in the first place?

This is precisely, well to a certain extent, my point. What worries ME is that you've decided to use it as a reply to what I thought I was saying.

[Number 28]

IIRC, Manchester, where I study, have sent people to Codies in the past. We also have a (tenuous) link with Elixir, as a coder there is an ex student.

Most places apart from Codies and EA don't do Uni placements, but will happily recruit graduates. I think.

I'm at Teesside, and I know Reflections take placement students from my university (although only about five). It seems like they have some sort of deal, being sorta local.

I've already applied to EA, but i'm not hopeful. We were given a week to knock up a showreel (thanks for that placement office ) and the offer seems to be open to students throughout the UK.

I guess this summer i'll make a start on my final project. Shame, as i'd really like a placement, simply to get better at what I do. Getting out of Middlesbrough is a bonus also.

[zy]

I am currently working on a website dedicated to game mechanics and level design. Surely if you were to send a cd with a presentation about prototype game mechanics for existing genres a company would be interested a lot more. The ip issue would still be relevant but not to the same extent as original concepts. Another thing the website will cover are critiques/evaluations of current games/genres/ popular game mechanics as well.

Let me get this straight. You fully appreciate that these companies are not interested in original ideas, so your great strategy is to send them some unoriginal ideas? And not in any demo form, but as a 'presentation' (ie polished design document in some flashy visual medium) of a prototype of a generic game, or several games, of the very kind they already make?

Forgive me if I'm failing to see the brilliance of this plan, but what do you expect might be achieved through this course of action?

[pretentious_helvetica]

Sounds good in theory, but in practice, nope. For a start, anyone thinking of producing a portfolio of artwork and the like need to keep it simple. No fancy stuff. No wonderful Flash intros, nothing. Just a video with footage and/or some example .jpgs. "Website" *giggle* Nope, that neither. I always thought a while ago that getting a website up online means you get a chance for prospective companies to check out your stuff online. Nope. That very rarely happens.

[Alan Stock]

Let me get this straight. You fully appreciate that these companies are not interested in original ideas, so your great strategy is to send them some unoriginal ideas? And not in any demo form, but as a 'presentation' (ie polished design document in some flashy visual medium) of a prototype of a generic game, or several games, of the very kind they already make?

Forgive me if I'm failing to see the brilliance of this plan, but what do you expect might be achieved through this course of action?

Actually I've been advised a number of times to send in design work in that form - for instance companies can't look at new concept ideas, but if you took an exisiting game by that company and showed how you would change it, add to it etc, it can do you a load of good. incidentally the first person to give me that advice was Peter Moleneux.

[Ste Pickford]

This is precisely, well to a certain extent, my point. What worries ME is that you've decided to use it as a reply to what I thought I was saying.

I've re-read your original post which I replied to. Maybe I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve.

The IP / lawsuit issue is funamental. Why look at anybody elses ideas - whether they are original games concepts or game mechanic conpepts for existing genres - - with all the associated risks, when you already have more ideas internally than opportunities to develop them.

[Guest]

Every day at work we have something called "The Daily Bombshell".

Christ, someone should do a sitcom based around a devco. So much source material, it's unbelievable.

"It's Lunchtime! Let's play some Counterstrike, or DoD!!"

Hmmm great!

[Guest]

It's just disheartening when you see shit happen in front of your eyes and you want to do something about it, but you can't. You know it's total wrongness and yet it's denied as such. Good job I'm finally getting around to doing something about it.

Sven ;[)~

I know that feeling too.

Hold me.

[zy]

Actually I've been advised a number of times to send in design work in that form - for instance companies can't look at new concept ideas, but if you took an exisiting game by that company and showed how you would change it, add to it etc, it can do you a load of good. incidentally the first person to give me that advice was Peter Moleneux.

Yes, Alan -- and he reads every single game idea and design sent to him, too!

You've been working on your Half-Life level because it would give you something demonstrable when applying to become a level designer. And if you went for an interview then you'd surely have ideas you could present about existing games and how you'd improve upon them. Fine. When there's an advertised vacancy, sure, these are ways to back up a CV with no experience. But I see a world of difference between this and the notion of just sending in lengthy, detailed expositions on how you could have made Goldeneye even better, then expecting somebody to take the time to recognise it as such; to read through it when they would otherwise bin unsolicited game designs; and then to do something -- like what? -- with it. Which is what I read Zeroborta as saying, though his text has all the clarity of used lard.

Not that original ideas are good currency any more. The cruel irony is that when you see a bona fide game design job advertised these days, it usually means they already know exactly what game they want you to design.