Transformers - Ps2

[Polmon]

Hang on, so you dont like Edge (or whoever) saying Massive in description of 32000 combinationsd, purely because AC has more combinations?

Surely the fact that something bigger exists doesnt nullify the fact that that is a massive amount...

[footle]

I am belittling you because you are clearly an EDGE henchman. Simple really.

I disagree with you and I'm immediately labelled as being from the Cacky dark side.

*splutters*.

You, sir, have "issues".

complexity, all at once, part juggling

I think the argument that the games are in the same genre passes me by at this point.

Transformers would appear to have much less potential for part juggling (there being only 32000 combinations, after all). Regardless, it'll appeal to Transformer nerds far more than giant robot nerds and looks a lot more like some kind of bastardised FPS than, say, Tekki.

Similarly, Gran Turismo and Ridge Racer are only nominally in the same genre...

People make comments about a game completely igorant of superior games in the genre (ironically, much like FIFA players being ignorant of PES3).

AFAIK, Transformers PS2 hasn't been released yet (and definitely hadn't been at the start of this thread).

So you'd appear to be making a comparison between a game you clearly love (and, let's face it, the Armoured Core series hasn't scored badly in EDGE - a number of 8s?) and a game whose full version you haven't played...

But you wouldn't want to be consistent in anything but Edge-baiting now, would you?

[Cacophanus]

Hang on, so you dont like Edge (or whoever) saying Massive in description of 32000 combinationsd, purely because AC has more combinations?

Surely the fact that something bigger exists doesnt nullify the fact that that is a massive amount...

Relatively, no it isn't. That's the issue really.

I disagree with you and I'm immediately labelled as being from the Cacky dark side.

*splutters*.

You, sir, have "issues".

It's more than a diasgreement though, you have an agenda which involves me being sacrificed to Satan so as to appease the Lovecraftian ideals of the EDGE editorial. Moreover, you clearly know very little about the genre which really begs the question; why discuss about something you know nothing about?

I think the argument that the games are in the same genre passes me by at this point. Transformers would appear to have much less potential for part juggling (there being only 32000 combinations, after all). Regardless, it'll appeal to Transformer nerds far more than giant robot nerds and looks a lot more like some kind of bastardised FPS than, say, Tekki.

Similarly, Gran Turismo and Ridge Racer are only nominally in the same genre...

The fundamental game mechanics of both Gran Turismo and Ridge Racer is that you race cars. The manner in which it is undetaken is admittedly different, but only marginally so (Mario Kart Double Dash would be a bigger shift, but it would still remain a racing game). Armored Core, Virtual On, J-Phoenix, Gungriffon, many many Gundam games and now Transformers are all games where you control a mecha with a third person camera and generally blow stuff up (some have first person modes, like a sniper scope, but the main bulk of the gameplay is in the third person). In Japan the genre is simply referred to as "3D mecha action". It really is that simple.

AFAIK, Transformers PS2 hasn't been released yet (and definitely hadn't been at the start of this thread). So you'd appear to be making a comparison between a game you clearly love (and, let's face it, the Armoured Core (it's Armored Core you muppet) series hasn't scored badly in EDGE - a number of 8s?) and a game whose full version you haven't played...

But you wouldn't want to be consistent in anything but Edge-baiting now, would you?

I have actually played both Transformers games to completion (the wonders of advance review code). I have also played Armored Core Nexus until completion. The latter is the better game. I see no reason why that should be overlooked?

As for baiting EDGE, well when they live up to their self-confessed standards I will gladly shut the fuck up.

[Cyhwuhx]

.::: Only problem is that actual review-code was only released this week.

I still don't see how you can compare the two at all. It's like comparing Metroid Prime to HALO. Just having one thing in common doesn't make them comparable on every level.

You can have a preference however (and you clearly have), but your inability to let others have their own is not really helping you.

[footle]

Armoured == Armored.

It isn't a word for which the choice of spelling makes even the blind bit of difference to comprehension (hey - even you knew precisely which game I meant so it can't have been that hard!), and once I've typed the extra u I'm hardly going to go searching around this laptop keyboard for the delete key.

What the genre is referred to in Japan doesn't make the slightest bit of difference.

Mario 64 and Prince of Persia are both 3D platformers. There is a fairly distinct difference between the way each play out. And categorising them both under the same label isn't necessarily the right way to go.

The mechanics of Half Life and Halo are similar (both involve running around in FP firing guns), but the actual gameplay and context?

Have a muffin.

[jeroenr]

Just finished the game (though on recruit difficulty) and am now replaying it on Commander.

The AI for the enemies is very good indeed. Where as there are group attacks in which a sarge gives out orders to grunts (yes they call them that way). When there are to much casualties they will retreat and regroup and start their attacks again.

Even a boss battle seems to learn from you tactics as he was tricking me out of my hiding place. I would only come out if he was in vehicle mode and hit him hard as when he would transform I would hide.

At the transformation sound i would pop out and fire at him and that’s the part where he tricked me. He would transform tot vehicle but quickly transform tot robot so he had the upper hand. The bitch

The extra's are ace to btw, lovely artwork, toys productions, music, and even some oldskool shit.

[Cyhwuhx]

.::: Sounds delightful. Still a whole month to wait for retail... Aargh, torment!

[Cacophanus]

.::: Only problem is that actual review-code was only released this week.

I still don't see how you can compare the two at all. It's like comparing Metroid Prime to HALO. Just having one thing in common doesn't make them comparable on every level.

You can have a preference however (and you clearly have), but your inability to let others have their own is not really helping you.

Metroid Prime and Halo only have a similar viewpoint (as in first person), the rest works very differently (the lock-on feature in Prime coupled with the huge emphasis on exploration distinguishes the game as something more than just an FPS). I would say that the transforming aspect in Transformers does add spice to the game, but fundamentally it is an Armored Core clone. Like J-Phoenix before it, ironically developed by Takara no less, copying Armored Core is no bad thing and Transformers is a fun game. The issue at hand is which is the better game.

People do compare similar games on a regular basis, even here on rllmuk. Naturally, their general motivation is to discern which is the best of the bunch. FIFA is weaker than PES3, for example, and Transformers is weaker than Armored Core Nexus (giving a recent example here). Why deny this?

Oh, and some of us get advance review code.

Armoured == Armored.

It isn't a word for which the choice of spelling makes even the blind bit of difference to comprehension (hey - even you knew precisely which game I meant so it can't have been that hard!), and once I've typed the extra u I'm hardly going to go searching around this laptop keyboard for the delete key.

Okay, if an estemmed journalist were to write this:

Super Mariu Sunshine

It's wrong and it would justifiably piss gamers off. I don't see how this is any different (apart from the fact that your defence approves of ignorance).

What the genre is referred to in Japan doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. Mario 64 and Prince of Persia are both 3D platformers. There is a fairly distinct difference between the way each play out. And categorising them both under the same label isn't necessarily the right way to go. The mechanics of Half Life and Halo are similar (both involve running around in FP firing guns), but the actual gameplay and context?

I have no qualms with comparing Mario 64 to Prince of Persia or Half-Life to Halo. After all they contain comparable game mechanics and are thus under the same critical jurisdiction. The same can be said for Transformers and Armored Core.

[PopeSmokesDope]

But I thought you're a testing monkey, not a reviewer???

Is armoured core good? Sounds cool.. might get myself a copy, what version do you recomend?

Ta.

[Cyhwuhx]

The issue at hand is which is the better game.

.::: Well leave then, it's a thread about Transformers, whatever did you expect us to do? Dump a game we're looking forward to just because you say Armored Core is better?

It's always a matter of taste, but now you're just crushing eggs because you feel like it, as if it is your holy duty to get people to play Armored Core. Are you now going to do this in every HALO thread as well? Or how about SOCOM? Maybe you should slam Mechwarrior while you're at it. How about Metroid? That suit isn't organic. Ah might as well throw in ZOE for good measure. Shoushi.

Robots are a far more essential part of the Armored Core gamemechanic than Transformers. You're slamming the game by it's franchise, but meanwhile you use that same franchise to compare it directly to Armored Core.

[Cacophanus]

But I thought you're a testing monkey, not a reviewer???

I am a senior tester, freelance journalist and "games consultant". I even get paid for all three, which is pretty outstanding considering how ropey the industry is in Britain.

Is armoured core good? Sounds cool.. might get myself a copy, what version do you recomend?

The best one, available on the British market, is Armored Core 3 (GAME is selling it pretty cheap these days). The best incarnations of the series however are Armored Core Master of Arena (PSone) and Armored Core 3 Silent Line (PS2), though neither have been released in Britain yet. Admittedly both Armored Core 2 and Armored Core 2 Another Age have been released in Britain, but they aren't as polished as the more recent offerings (though they are still pretty solid).

.::: Well leave then, it's a thread about Transformers, whatever did you expect us to do? Dump a game we're looking forward to just because you say Armored Core is better?

If, for example, somebody started a thread about how great a game Enter the Matrix is, they would be brutally villified for being an ignorant idiot. I am being more reasoned, though rather angry, about a similar state of affairs.

It's always a matter of taste, but now you're just crushing eggs because you feel like it, as if it is your holy duty to get people to play Armored Core. Are you now going to do this in every HALO thread as well? Or how about SOCOM? Maybe you should slam Mechwarrior while you're at it. How about Metroid? That suit isn't organic. Ah might as well throw in ZOE for good measure. Shoushi.

ZOE is part of the same genre, though the others aren't. As for a "matter of taste", that's half true. You either have taste in games or you don't. Transformers is fun but vapid. I think that pretty much spells it out.

Robots are a far more essential part of the Armored Core gamemechanic than Transformers. You're slamming the game by it's franchise, but meanwhile you use that same franchise to compare it directly to Armored Core.

In terms of game mechanics, both games are similar. You stomp along in the third person, shoot at enemies (via short mid and long range weaponary) and customise your mecha (though the transforming aspect is not present in Armored Core the Over Boost offers a similar function in most instances).

The Transformers game is also merchandise for an animated television show, whereas Armored Core has survived purely on the pedigree of its gameplay. Transformers is by no means a bad game though, just not as good as Armored Core Nexus (for example).

[Cyhwuhx]

.::: Fortuantely Transformers is anything but vapid; it takes a first/third person shooter skeleton and molds some of the basic Transformers elements around it. Obviously you havn't followed the cartoon series as then you would have realised the only thing actually used from it are the characters and voices.

The fact that it combines a license with a good gamemechanic is very good indeed weheras you tend to view it the license as one of it's problems. To be fair that is a problem; Melbourne House explained the license was actually dragging them down because everybody regards the game as lesser because it uses a license.

The stomping about and customising your mecha is the same as in HALO or SOCOM that's what I tried to convey. You may not play a robot, but in SOCOM you still have to choose weaponry depending upon situation and then go in and complete the mission. The same as with HALO although you probably don't like because you can only carry up to two weapons and grenades (that's not a lot of combinations, is it?)

Also the game is far from vapid giving you an opposing army which mimicks HALO's covenant somewhat and adds some one quirks to it. AI is in place and difficulty levels not only change damage and power it also changes the locations of your weaponry and skills meaning you have to rethink your situation and approach it far differently then you were used to (this is also why I honestly don't get while you would call Transformers a button-masher).

The Armored Core Over Boost is not comparable to transformation. Mainly because Over Boosting depletes resources while transforming does not. If you would want to find a comparsion you could point towards the Powerlinx option. But even then it's different as Powerlinx can be cancelled at any moment, as opposed to being an all-or-nothing approach like Over Boost.

Controls difference wildly between AC and TF. The first uses buttons vor correcting vertical aim, while the latter has aiming mapped to the right stick like an F/TPS. One could say Armored Core is akin to Metroid Prime in terms of control while Transformers is to HALO, Wolfenstein or any other dual-stick controlled shooter.

Maybe the newest version of AC has changed this, but as it's an integrated part of the series I don't think this is the case.

Then there is gameflow. Armored Core is a more freestyle game where you can choose to take missions or pass up on them. These are broken up by challenges amonst fellow Ravens in arena's and such.

In Transformers you have a more linear way through. Although it still allows to revisit earlier levels later on there is a clear path through the game, which has seevral mission objectives within one level.

In short Armored Core has a more broken flow, switching between short and long missions, while Transformers generally focusses on a single big level with save points in between.

Also the entire need for keeping a positieve bank balance is unneeded in Transformers as being destroyed only requires you to continue instead of to suffer financial reprecussions (unless of course you constantly reload your last save).

There's just too much difference between the titles. Both have very different mechanics at heart and a very different flow. You can't play them in the same way and frankly yo're not supposed to. Wether one is better than the other is purely based upon one's personal preference for type of game. One could like the almost simulation like qualities of Armored Core or one could prefer the instant-action accessibility of Transformers.

[Uncle Nasty]

Please, for the love of God, forget about pointless comparisons to AC and let's hear some more Transformers impressions. Cacky go start an AC appreciation thread or something if you feel the need to evangelise and some of us may actually listen.

[footle]

Pavement == Sidewalk.

Boot == Trunk.

Armoured == Armored.

Mario = Mariu. Hell - I'd call that a Typo and disregard it (and it doesn't even have 10 centuries worth of English language development to back it up).

ffs.

It was interesting how Cacky decided to take my Gran Turismo vs Ridge Racer comparison (where both games have a similar "look" and utterly different feeling mechanics) and then extend that misleadingly to cover Mario Kart.

The point was actually how games can *look* similar (hence meaning Mario Kart isn't really an issue being cartoony, weapons based and all), appear to be of the same genre, but not really similar at all.

But I wouldn't expect a "senior tester, games journalist and games consultant" to understand that.

Are you Dave Perry in disguise?

[Floppy]

The Transformers game is also merchandise for an animated television show

Toy range.

[kamrantaz]

As someone who does own and has played a PS2 AC game (JPN version as well ) i can safely say its a load off bollocks. Shit controls etc.

The only mech game i;'ve enjoyed was gundam:0079 on the DC. That was short but damn was it good.

gun griffon as well.

[Floppy]

Hey kids! Pop along here if you want a demo disc of the Armada game.

[Cyhwuhx]

.::: I don't live in the UK.

Ah well, there are others ways to get it in the Netherlands.

[Cacophanus]

.::: Fortuantely Transformers is anything but vapid; it takes a first/third person shooter skeleton and molds some of the basic Transformers elements around it. Obviously you havn't followed the cartoon series as then you would have realised the only thing actually used from it are the characters and voices.

I have watched a fair bit of Armada, but didn't really enjoy as much as the classic stuff. Transformers is a vapid game when compared to Armored Core however. That's all I am saying.

The fact that it combines a license with a good gamemechanic is very good indeed weheras you tend to view it the license as one of it's problems. To be fair that is a problem; Melbourne House explained the license was actually dragging them down because everybody regards the game as lesser because it uses a license.

The license isn't a problem, more of an addendum. Transformers does convert the mecha aesthetic well, but Armored Core does it better. I merely picked up on the license simply because Armored Core is a self-sustaining gaming IP. I thought that fairly pertinent on a games forum.

The stomping about and customising your mecha is the same as in HALO or SOCOM that's what I tried to convey. You may not play a robot, but in SOCOM you still have to choose weaponry depending upon situation and then go in and complete the mission. The same as with HALO although you probably don't like because you can only carry up to two weapons and grenades (that's not a lot of combinations, is it?)

In essence most FPS games are in-line with Armored Core, however the handling and intricate customisation sets it apart as being something, well, different.

Also the game is far from vapid giving you an opposing army which mimicks HALO's covenant somewhat and adds some one quirks to it. AI is in place and difficulty levels not only change damage and power it also changes the locations of your weaponry and skills meaning you have to rethink your situation and approach it far differently then you were used to (this is also why I honestly don't get while you would call Transformers a button-masher).

This is no different than Armored Core, except that in Armored Core 3 Silent Line yoi could customise your own AI and use it as a wingman in versus. Moreover, one of Armored Core's greater gameplay traits is that the player is constantly modifying their skills and AC layout so as to negotiate the tougher and shrewder foes. It's more cerebral than Transformers in this respect, which makes Atari's latest effort a button masher relative to Armored Core.

The Armored Core Over Boost is not comparable to transformation. Mainly because Over Boosting depletes resources while transforming does not. If you would want to find a comparsion you could point towards the Powerlinx option. But even then it's different as Powerlinx can be cancelled at any moment, as opposed to being an all-or-nothing approach like Over Boost.

OverBoost can be cancelled at "any moment" as well, though I do agree that Transformation is not so harsh on the player (no real downsides to it really). I think this is a tad simplistic though, not exactly a good tenet of games design.

Controls difference wildly between AC and TF. The first uses buttons vor correcting vertical aim, while the latter has aiming mapped to the right stick like an F/TPS. One could say Armored Core is akin to Metroid Prime in terms of control while Transformers is to HALO, Wolfenstein or any other dual-stick controlled shooter. Maybe the newest version of AC has changed this, but as it's an integrated part of the series I don't think this is the case.

It does, the latest incarnation (Armored Core Nexus) utilises full analogue control (something I was instrumental in the implentation of). There is still the option to use the old digital setup however.

Then there is gameflow. Armored Core is a more freestyle game where you can choose to take missions or pass up on them. These are broken up by challenges amonst fellow Ravens in arena's and such.

In Transformers you have a more linear way through. Although it still allows to revisit earlier levels later on there is a clear path through the game, which has seevral mission objectives within one level.

In short Armored Core has a more broken flow, switching between short and long missions, while Transformers generally focusses on a single big level with save points in between.

Also the entire need for keeping a positieve bank balance is unneeded in Transformers as being destroyed only requires you to continue instead of to suffer financial reprecussions (unless of course you constantly reload your last save).

All the above proves is that Tranformers is simplistic and vapid.

There's just too much difference between the titles. Both have very different mechanics at heart and a very different flow. You can't play them in the same way and frankly yo're not supposed to. Wether one is better than the other is purely based upon one's personal preference for type of game. One could like the almost simulation like qualities of Armored Core or one could prefer the instant-action accessibility of Transformers.

Mario = Mariu. Hell - I'd call that a Typo and disregard it (and it doesn't even have 10 centuries worth of English language development to back it up).

Disregard it? Hardly. You lot lot would castrate whomever wrote such stuff.

It was interesting how Cacky decided to take my Gran Turismo vs Ridge Racer comparison (where both games have a similar "look" and utterly different feeling mechanics) and then extend that misleadingly to cover Mario Kart. The point was actually how games can *look* similar (hence meaning Mario Kart isn't really an issue being cartoony, weapons based and all), appear to be of the same genre, but not really similar at all.

Nice backpedalling there. I was talking about the games and their respective game mechanics (both are racing games), you were (apparently) talking about window dressing. Since when did that fucking matter?

If you want to specify finite differences in a genre, then that's fine in a design based environment. We, however, are on a forum talking about games in a general sense. Armored Core is not identical to Transformers, but it is similar. Moreover Armored Core is the better game compared to Transformers (for the reasons I have repeatedly stated).

But I wouldn't expect a "senior tester, games journalist and games consultant" to understand that.

Are you Dave Perry in disguise?

Nah, I don't like bandanas.

As someone who does own and has played a PS2 AC game (JPN version as well ) i can safely say its a load off bollocks. Shit controls etc.

The only mech game i;'ve enjoyed was gundam:0079 on the DC. That was short but damn was it good.

gun griffon as well.

In that case, you might enjoy Armored Core 3 Silent Line's cockpit view. Admittedly most incarnations have offered a secret cockpit view option, but Silent Line fully implemented the feature. It's a damn fine game too.

If you liked Rise from the Ashes then by all means check out the Blue Destiny series of games on the Saturn. If, however, you want something more contemporary I can heartily recommend Zeonic Front (on PS2). Did you play the Premium Disc for Rise of the Ashes, or better still acquire the Japanese "Best" re-release? You might enjoy that also.

[jeroenr]

Could we just stop the discussion please? Sjeez some people don't quit do they?

[Cyhwuhx]

.::: Gladly, despite him actually admitting AC is differnt he just won't leave it alone.

Very well then, what can we expect from those Data-Cons?

[Sprite Machine]

Could we just stop the discussion please? Sjeez some people don't quit do they?

Nah, Cacky's opinion is fact, remember?

Actually, if he's done nothing else, he's made me rather interested in Armored Core...

[jeroenr]

A lot actually.

Remeber those old commercials. Where Red Alert would tell the kids on their bikes that they should wear reflectors and stuff so drivers would see them better?

Well there are 5 of those.

There is lots of artwork, from renders to handdrawn stuff. Even art of some Transformers which aren't even in the game.

Then there is music, the Armada Soundtrack, game soundtrack and other stuff.

And of course toys, pre-production toys exactly. As well as their manuals.

There seems to be cheats in there, but they will only be unlocked on the Commander Difficulty level. Unfortunatly I just can't get past Star Scream on that level. And that is only mission two. He is a pain in the behind

[slimbot]

Any co-op mode?

[Cyhwuhx]

Nah, Cacky's opinion is fact, remember?

Actually, if he's done nothing else, he's made me rather interested in Armored Core...

.::: Armored Core is a good series, period. I've had tremnedous fun with it. Cacky's just a bit of an extremist, not allowing anyhting to even come close to it though.

Hmm, soundtrack Data-Cons... I already got massive enjoyment out of Zero Mission's sound test, so this should be heaven.

[Mr. Pin?]

Nah, Cacky's opinion is fact, remember?

Actually, if he's done nothing else, he's made me rather interested in Armored Core...

Nah, I'll wait until it gets at least a 9 in EDGE.

[jeroenr]

Any co-op mode?

Nope, there is no multiplayer mode.

Guess they will save that for Transformers part Two

[Cyhwuhx]

.::: Just like the online bit.

[slimbot]

Why cant they jus add the first time round pffff

[Cyhwuhx]

Why cant they jus add the first time round pffff

.::: They only had 12 months development time. Although the lack of multiplayer is a shame I don't see it as problematic, the singleplayer is strong enough to carry the entire game through imo.

I'd rather have that than two semi-finished parts, if they did squash in a multiplayer.