Lost - The Full Series Thread

[Goose]

About that fake wreckage - probably nothing for sure, but reading this from the DarkUFO "What I saw this week" episode analysis, it raises some questions...but perhaps is digging too hard trying to make it into something -

First off, look at who Charles is talking to: Daniel Faraday. He conveniently shows up just as the 815 footage is being played on the television, then uses it as a cattle prod to get Dan on his freighter crew. So do we take what Widmore is saying at face value? First let's run down the steps someone needs to take in order to pull this off:

a) Purchase a retired Boeing 777: un-parted out

B) Paint it to look exactly like Oceanic 815

c) Fill it with dozens of rotting corpses you stole from a Thai cemetery

d) Sneak it out into the middle of the Indian Ocean, over the Sundra Trench

e) Somehow do all this without anyone (but your evil henchmen!) knowing

f) Dump it and then 'pretend to find it

Pretty slick, right? But hey Widmore has lots of money, so everyone naturally believes this can be done. Okay fine. So now let's examine the reasons why he'd do something like this:

1) To "throw off" the search parties looking for Flight 815. (Yeah, right)

2) To point fingers at Ben, convincing people he's evil (Seems like a lot of trouble, no?)

3) To convince Daniel to get on the freighter (Hawking's prodding accomplished that just fine I think)

4) I can't even think of another reason.

No one can convince me that there'd be much of a search effort for a plane that disappeared "somewhere in the Pacific Ocean". And you also can't convince me that Widmore's "afraid of the public finding the island" when he's spent an unsuccessful 20 years trying to find it using his own vast resources.

Without going into too much detail, I'll say this: I believe we're looking at the actual wreckage of Flight 815. Just as there's an iteration of 815 laying in pieces all over our favorite beach, there's another iteration of 815 that crashed in the real world. This is why Daniel is crying - because I think deep down in his super-intelligent mind, he knows it.

The biggest clue, given to us a long while ago: the plane in the Sundra Trench is broken into the exact same three pieces that the original Flight 815 broke into. How the hell could that be possible? Widmore had no way of knowing this, and he couldn't have gotten that lucky. Nah, I'm not buying any of it. (I guess I'm not buying lots of stuff lately).

[Goose]

Something else that's been triggered off by that post - Widmore has a lot of cash. Widmore is trying to find and return to the island (we assume he wants to return). He knows were Eloise is and that she knows how to return to the island. So why not just get the information off her in the first place?

I suppose unless he didn't know that Eloise knew how to return.

[Goose]

Christ, you can tell that I've got no work to do!

Something from way back has just been bought to my attention by that DarkUFO recap - Desmond trying to keep Charlie from dying. Now, no matter what Desmond did, Charlie was going to die, all he was doing was delaying the inevitable right? We know this to be true because he saved Charlie three times I think but in the end he did die.

Now, knowing this, Desmond still tried anyway but was unable to change things, Charlie died.

But he DID change something, inadvertently. Let's say he thought "Sod it, Charlie's going to die anyway, why bother rushing to save him?" so then Charlie drowns in the ocean instead of Des saving him. Case Closed.

Except Des did save him, and again at least. In fact, Des managed to keep Charlie alive long enough for him to remove the jamming device and reveal to Penny and the Freighter crew exactly were the island was. Had Charlie died earlier then he would not have been able to unjam the device and etc etc. But Des did keep him alive long enough to do these things.

And we know if anyone can change or influence change it would be Desmond.

But I guess we could argue that Desmond was always going to save him long enough for Charlie to unjam the radio signal.

[Sponge]

in what time line though

What?

[CactuarBill]

We all know that they can't prevent the incident from happening because that would create the grandfather paradox. None of the time travelers can prevent themselves going back in time. Though if somehow they do manage to stop the incident happening then it would create an alternative timeline in which Oceanic 815 does land in LA.

I'm in the camp of the fixed timeline. Major events will always happen and there's no way of changing it. Though the cause of events may change. If they stop the incident from happening, then Desmond won't fail to push the button and the plane won't crash. Though course correction would come into play and the plane will still crash on the island but because of another factor.

I have no idea where the show is going by throwing in this theory that people actually do have free will and can change the future. It throws up so many problems.

[Sponge]

I thought this weeks episode concluded the opposite.

[mercenarri]

I agree with CactuarBill. As Daniel says, each individual are the variables to the constant which is the outcome. They can do things a different way, hence change the variables around, but the constant will remain the same.

Or something.

[Goose]

And by that method it explains Charlie and Desmond - someone was always going to unjam the radio signal and even if Charlie had died and not unjammed the signal, someone else would have done. Same conclusion, different method.

The Incident will happen. Even if they some how find a way to delay it happening, say if Faraday had succeeded in stopping it with the H-Bomb, it would have just found another way to happen.

[Monkeyboy]

The Dharma AI routines need some work. Fancy standing near a bunch of fuel barrels. I'm suprised the camera didn't go into "first person".

[Kramer]

in what time line though

Eh?!

An excellent episode - but I'm now not so excited about Lost, although it's still my fave show.

Season 1, 2 and 3 were compulsive because you want to find out the mysteries of the characters and the Island.

Season 4 - you want to find out how they get off the Island.

Season 5 - you want to find out about Dharma and time.

Now, apart from a few (admittidly big!) mysteries - there's no end-game to be as excited about.

Whatever happened happened, while confirmed earlier in the season is now absolutely confirmed with Daniel's death and his realisation that he was wrong (that he could change anything), at the moment of his death.

Jack's going to fanny about trying to change things and try and stop the Incident, but won't be able to and is probably the instigator of the Incident.

If, as appears so, nothing changes - the plane crashes.

If, the rules somehow change which appears very unlikely, their plane doesn't crash in 2004 - the whole show has been utterly pointless.

I'd quite like the time line to change for precisely one reason - so Sawyer shoots Radzinski in the head. HATE Radzinski.

[Kramer]

I thought this weeks episode concluded the opposite.

This week's episode concluded with a final confirmation that you cannot change anything. Dan thought he could, but when his own mother shot him - he realised he couldn't. He realised why she was so 'proud' of him, if he went back to the Island. Because she knew full well she shoots him dead and that's the way it always was.

[Sponge]

Yeah, which is opposite to what CacturBill said

I have no idea where the show is going by throwing in this theory that people actually do have free will and can change the future. It throws up so many problems

The show suggested that might be the case with Faraday going all "I was wrong" but ultimately that was proved wrong, and he was right all along.

[CactuarBill]

This week's episode concluded with a final confirmation that you cannot change anything. Dan thought he could, but when his own mother shot him - he realised he couldn't. He realised why she was so 'proud' of him, if he went back to the Island. Because she knew full well she shoots him dead and that's the way it always was.

True but she did have free will to tell Daniel not to go. His destiny was in her hands but she decided to sacrifice her son for the good of the island.

[squirtle]

True but she did have free will to tell Daniel not to go. His destiny was in her hands but she decided to sacrifice her son for the good of the island.

But then course correction would have kicked in and something else would have made him go. Probably his dad.

Anyway, I can't see why people are having a problem with all this stuff. What happened happened and it cannot be undone. All this season is leading up to the incident - the thing that caused the hatch to be built. After that... Well it's still all up for grabs. Once the losties get back to their own time zone, nothing is pre written. As Faraday said, this is their present so anything can happen. Once they get back to 2007/8 it's all up for grabs between Widmore/Ben/third party...

Unless someone jumps back from further in the future and then everything is still pre-written...

[CactuarBill]

But then course correction would have kicked in and something else would have made him go. Probably his dad.

Yep, people seem to have free will but course correction will come into play.

I'm so excited to see the incident happening. It's going to be awesome.

By the way did anyone see that video of Chang from Comic Con last year, having knowledge of the future. Many speculated that the cameraman was Daniel but I guess that's not the case anymore.

[NoVisAnima]

The Dharma AI routines need some work. Fancy standing near a bunch of fuel barrels. I'm suprised the camera didn't go into "first person".

What me and my GF noticed was the explosive barrels weren't red. How were they supposed to know they would explode when the barrels aren't red non red ones just soak up bullets it's not until you paint them red that they explode.

[Kramer]

Yep, people seem to have free will but course correction will come into play.

I'm so excited to see the incident happening. It's going to be awesome.

I'm not as excited anymore. It seems a bit linear how it's going to go from here - Jack's gonna try and follow Faraday's notebook thinking he's gonna change things, yada yada yada, he's not going to at all.

I suppose Jack's realisation that, if he does set off the Incident, the sequence of events leading up to the original plane crash was from his own actions could be interesting.

By the way did anyone see that video of Chang from Comic Con last year, having knowledge of the future. Many speculated that the cameraman was Daniel but I guess that's not the case anymore.

Damon and Carlton have said (not in a podcast!) that was semi-canon, so I suppose they'll either not bother with it - or just change the actor/voice that sounded like Daniel.

To Jack, probably!

[Broker]

I initially thought that Faraday was going to cause the incident by trying to stop it.

I think it's pretty likley that his intervention in the past is going to be what caused the incident. Regardless of what the producers say, I think the likleyhood that we've seen the last of Faraday is Zero. He'll turn up in a flashback or as a smoky ghost or as one of the gang of re-animated corpses who know everything.

So season 4 was about flashforwards in time, season 5 is about jumping around in time, I wonder what the format is in season 6?

The entire season will play out backwards, with the finale coming first and them slowly explaining how the conclusion of the show came about.

HATE Radzinski.

Considering he's been on screen for about 5 minutes overall it's amazing what an annoying cunt they've managed to make him. It's a shame we won't get to see him blow his own head off.

By the way did anyone see that video of Chang from Comic Con last year, having knowledge of the future. Many speculated that the cameraman was Daniel but I guess that's not the case anymore.

Watched that last night, it's definately Faraday's voice.

[Pob]

What's interesting is that someone like Eloise Hawking, who we can assume has a full understand of the workings of time and its unchangeable nature, should go to such great lengths to ensure that things which are supposed to happen, happen.

It's one thing to know for certain that you are responsible for your son's death, and know that nothing you can do can change that. It's another thing to actively ensure that it happens. What would happen if Eloise wasn't around to ensure events transpired the way they are going to anyway? Is she actually the agent of course correction?

If I saw the future, and realised I was going to do something amazing five years from now, I certainly wouldn't spend five years working towards it - I'd assume it'll happen no matter what I do.

[Pob]

And by that method it explains Charlie and Desmond - someone was always going to unjam the radio signal and even if Charlie had died and not unjammed the signal, someone else would have done. Same conclusion, different method.

However, the unjamming code plays the tune to Good Vibrations, which is something only Charlie could have figured out. So the unjamming of the radio signal is something is tied to Charlie.

I think the only conclusion to draw is that Desmond keeping Charlie alive until that point - until he could fulfil his destiny - is what is supposed to happen. I'm not sure we can trust Desmond's other premonitions of Charlie dying (e.g in the jungle, saving Claire) as being actual flashes of the future, despite his ability to experience times other than the present.

[squirtle]

Well you would assume that the flashes were there so that he could keep Charlie alive to get him into the underwater place.

Eloise Hawkings knew that she had no choice in what she did. It had to happen and it did. I would think though that Faraday's journal has now run its course, so she now no longer knows what is going to happen.

The only problem is that Faraday disappeared in 2005, so how did Eloise know what was going to happen up to 2007/Desmond being shot?

Aother thing, when Eloise Hawkings tells Jack and Sun and everyone about the island in the room with the pendulum, she is very careful not to name the man who works out that the island is moving. She says, "A very clever fellow built this pendulum... Now while the movements of the island seem random, this man and his team created a series of equations which tell us, with a high degree of probability, where the island is going to be."

Was this man Faraday? How did the Dharma initiative first find the island? Was it luck? And from then on, were they trying to predict its movements and thus in the period from 1974-77, Faraday led a team to track the island? Is that possible?

[Pob]

When they showed the scene with Daniel crying at the news report of Oceanic 815, I assumed the writers dropped in the idea that he'd mucked up his memory to explain why he doesn't remember Desmond when he meets him on the island. I also thought that was a bit of an anticlimactic explanation as to why he was crying - just because he's sad for the dead people. But then I've just discovered that Daniel was in fact having memory problems right from the start of season 4 (there's a scene between him and Charlotte, when he's trying to remember what cards he is shown - he can only remember two out of three cards, and Charlottes says he's making progress).

Anyone got any theories as to how Daniel could predict Chang arriving at The Orchid right when he did? Or is that a red herring and Chang was just scheduled to turn up then?

[Pob]

Eloise Hawkings knew that she had no choice in what she did. It had to happen and it did. I would think though that Faraday's journal has now run its course, so she now no longer knows what is going to happen.

The only problem is that Faraday disappeared in 2005, so how did Eloise know what was going to happen up to 2007/Desmond being shot?

Eloise must have some kind of knowledge beyond what was written in Daniel's journal. When she meets Desmond back in the 90s and tells him he has to go to the island, she predicts that that bloke in the red shoes will be killed. How would she know that?

Her and Widmore seem to be trying to influence events as much as they can - they're not just letting history run its course. The fact that she keeps saying "if you don't do x then we are all dead" implies that something bigger is going on.

[squirtle]

Maybe she's from the future and she knows what happens. So everything in the show is pre-determined because for her, it's already happened... Only Desmond, because of what he is (special in some way) has mucked things up. Or something.

[Goose]

You know what is poor, really? The fact that I wish someone would for once, categorically state the truth and it would be the truth. I wish Ben, Eloise, Widmore or Alpert would some how be proved to be telling the truth. For some odd reason I'm becoming annoyed by the fact that we still don't know who is telling the truth or not, who the bad guy is and who isn't.

[Fireproofradiator]

Law of diminishing returns, a bit, I agree.

Faraday might be dead but something about his return didn't ring true - maybe it was seeing him running round with a gun, maybe it was the way his big backstory episode mostly seemed to just provide confirmation of stuff we'd mostly already conjectured or guess around his lineage - but the sudden wrap up for one of Lost's most beloved characters, and the way he was mysteriously just 'gone' for several years after winding up back in the 1970's makes me wonder how much more of his research he managed to complete during that gap, and exactly how many Faradays might be wandering around. I love the idea that he might be playing a long game, like a nice-guy version of Ben...

I'm probably wrong. But these are the kind of ideas that make me feel a bit less worried about the way things are going this season. After an amazing start I'm getting a bit fed up with discovering x is y's Dad etc. We need more statues, more Locke and more Ilana.

[joeplus]

However, the unjamming code plays the tune to Good Vibrations, which is something only Charlie could have figured out. So the unjamming of the radio signal is something is tied to Charlie.

Oh god, I'd forgotten about that. Now I'm getting my wires crossed with the BSG thread.

[joeplus]

We need more statues, more Locke and more Ilana.

This. By the finale, some folks in "the present" (what is it? 2007?) need to die or spill the beans.

Also, I'm looking forward to some H-bomb action. They'll work it in with or without Faraday.

[Goose]

What's the story with Sun, Locke & Ben as well? In fact, more importantly Sun - why didn't she flash to the 70s like everyone else did? Is it because Locke didn't bring her, but Ben did? It seemed odd that people who flashed to the island found it to be in 1977 but people who visited the island found it to be...? Well we don't really know do we? We know the Dharma place is trashed - is that post-incident, post-purge or post-war that's coming?

Didn't someone mention the game of Risk that Hurley was playing with Sawyer (I think) was still visible when Ben went into the house to summon the beast? Which would make me think it's post-incident, but pre-everything else including the The Others moving to Dharmaville.

Hmmm.

[Anne Summers]

Does anyone else think the character of Jack has completely gone of the boil? He hasn't done anything interesting for about 2 seasons now - I know he was always a bit of a weak character, I guess he just never developed in the way the writers' thought he would. It's like they designed his character to be the leading man of the series, but it turned out that the audience much preferred Sawyer, Locke and Ben, so they ended up giving them all the best lines and scenes.

The relevance here is that I don't really see what role Jack has to play any more, in the finale and the next season. Obviously he is going to come face to face with his dad at some point, but I don't really see how that will resolve anything that is important to the viewer.