Whedonesque Ironic Detachment

[Harsin]

Sorry for the garbled thread title and this will also be a bit of a garbled thread where I try to crystallise something that's been nagging be about a lot of recent films, TV and games.

 

When I use the term Whedonesque, it was the best I could think of for that kind of on the verge of fourth wall breaking, oh we know how daft this is audience members snarky style dialogue. Whedon may have been outed as a sex pest, but that style is ubiquitous. I think a lot of young screenwriters have internalised it so much they're incapable of writing something earnest at this point.

 

In fact even though I name dropped Whedon, at least with Buffy he knew when to take his foot off the gas to show that characters were upset or scared instead of just being robotic quip machines regardless of the situation. Obviously films have had quips and tongue in cheek moments forever, but the kind of 'Well, THAT just happened…' moments seem on overload in a lot of properties.

 

Like I said, garbled thread.

[SeanR]

[revlob]

Does anyone in real life talk like this?

 

Whatever this style of dialogue is called, it's unrelenting in Midnight Suns. Almost makes it unplayable for me.

[Nick R]

This seems a popular subject at the moment! Bob Chipman just published this video responding to the complaints about this style of comedy:

 

 

I won't blame anyone for not wanting to watch a Moviebob video, so to summarise: his argument is that '70s and '80s genre parody movie made fun of genre tropes, which meant that films made in those genres had to acknowledge those conventions (but not go so far as to become outright spoofs themselves), which gave rise to "buddy cop movie dialogue". (At about 6:00 he puts together a compilation of clips of one-liners that could be said to be precursors of the sort of thing people complain about in the MCU.) He also suggests that you could trace this style of comedy in blockbuster movies back at least as far as Han Solo's "boring conversation anyway."

 

(His video goes on to argue that now this is being used as another culture war front.)

 

 

 

 

 

What I'd say about this style of comedy is:

 

1) A common complaint is that having characters quipping and sighing with exasperation at the absurdity of their situation reduces the stakes and sense of tension and peril. (The example that's often brought up to illustrate this is the end of Iron Man 3, when Tony Stark makes a quip soon after he thinks he's just seen Pepper die.) That may be so, but I can honestly say that my enjoyment of an action movie has never been reduced because there was a quip in an otherwise serious moment - as long as that joke was funny.

 

2) I still maintain that for me, the Joss Whedon, Shane Black, and James Gunn-written MCU movies have better joke hit rates then most US movies marketed as outright comedies from the last decade or so.

 

3) No, not every action blockbuster should adopt that particular style of comedy. There are other ways to incorporate lighthearted moments.

[Festoon]

3 hours ago, Nick R said:

This seems a popular subject at the moment! Bob Chipman just published this video responding to the complaints about this style of comedy:

 

 

I won't blame anyone for not wanting to watch a Moviebob video, so to summarise: his argument is that '70s and '80s genre parody movie made fun of genre tropes, which meant that films made in those genres had to acknowledge those conventions (but not go so far as to become outright spoofs themselves), which gave rise to "buddy cop movie dialogue". (At about 6:00 he puts together a compilation of clips of one-liners that could be said to be precursors of the sort of thing people complain about in the MCU.) He also suggests that you could trace this style of comedy in blockbuster movies back at least as far as Han Solo's "boring conversation anyway."

 

(His video goes on to argue that now this is being used as another culture war front.)

 

 

 

 

 

What I'd say about this style of comedy is:

 

1) A common complaint is that having characters quipping and sighing with exasperation at the absurdity of their situation reduces the stakes and sense of tension and peril. (The example that's often brought up to illustrate this is the end of Iron Man 3, when Tony Stark makes a quip soon after he thinks he's just seen Pepper die.) That may be so, but I can honestly say that my enjoyment of an action movie has never been reduced because there was a quip in an otherwise serious moment - as long as that joke was funny.

 

2) I still maintain that for me, the Joss Whedon, Shane Black, and James Gunn-written MCU movies have better joke hit rates then most US movies marketed as outright comedies from the last decade or so.

 

3) No, not every action blockbuster should adopt that particular style of comedy. There are other ways to incorporate lighthearted moments.

 

Good summary - and to the IM3 reference, when Downey Jr quips, he's still actually acting, so there's varying messages being delivered - sometimes it's to mask fear, sometimes impatience, sometimes he's being a smartass to show off, sometimes you can see him almost wince when he says something situationally inappropriate - like he realises, but he can't shut up, other times he's quipping, but the humour is gone and it's a veiled threat. He's a unique acting talent with that material.

 

With a lot of actors, they're just saying funny punchlines.

[Eighthours]

I really like Whedon's dialogue. I don't like Whedonesque dialogue, though, because it tends to be a pale imitation that isn't anywhere near as funny or snappy as the source. It's a real shame that Whedon is a sex pest, because he's a massive talent when it comes to writing. (And... er... because of his victims' trauma, obviously. More importantly!)

[schmojo]

I think it's fairly inevitable in a media world influenced by meme culture. If you're less aware and arch than a jpeg that took 5 seconds to generate, you're going to seem incredibly old fashioned to a certain audience. Coupled with YT, Insta and Tiktok cultures having strong focuses on remixing content and presenting it through new lenses, they're just trying to reflect that world.

 

It'll get more intense before it gets more earnest, but I expect there'll always be older writers writing more traditional dialogue for those of us that want it. It's just that this other style of dialogue represents the audience producers are trying to connect to.

[James Lyon]

I'm not sure if this is along the lines of what we're talking about, but this made me think of the Lego cartoons.

 

I don't know if anyone's watched them. They're for kids but they all have a kind of bland arch humour where everyone's got a quip and wink that's kind of unsettling. It's probably no wonder that they've done a lot of Marvel specials as it suits the style of the MCU a bit too much.

[cubik]

Anyone seen the new Guardians trailer? It made me think of this thread.

I'd like to think that the two and a bit minutes is actually comprised of all the quips in the film, and that hopefully it won't be like that all the way through.

[Qazimod]

On 08/02/2023 at 18:18, Harsin said:

Sorry for the garbled thread title and this will also be a bit of a garbled thread where I try to crystallise something that's been nagging be about a lot of recent films, TV and games.

 

When I use the term Whedonesque, it was the best I could think of for that kind of on the verge of fourth wall breaking, oh we know how daft this is audience members snarky style dialogue. Whedon may have been outed as a sex pest, but that style is ubiquitous. I think a lot of young screenwriters have internalised it so much they're incapable of writing something earnest at this point.

 

In fact even though I name dropped Whedon, at least with Buffy he knew when to take his foot off the gas to show that characters were upset or scared instead of just being robotic quip machines regardless of the situation. Obviously films have had quips and tongue in cheek moments forever, but the kind of 'Well, THAT just happened…' moments seem on overload in a lot of properties.

 

Like I said, garbled thread.

 

Yeah, it's not just film and TV - I was listening to a gaming podcast where they used the term to describe Forspoken's dialogue (and of course there was that infamous "so let me get this straight" trailer from the game's Twitter account last summer.) I think the problem is the tone and delivery had a fun silliness to it at one point, but then everyone jumped on that style and turned each movie or show into vacuous fodder for Tumblr kids.

 

I don't necessarily loathe it, and it can still lend a certain charm to events, but there's a sense that any kind of emotional investment from the consumer is unnecessary because "lols please clip a gif from my punchline". And if you as a writer/director don't expect any investment from the audience, you don't need to aim for anything that's more than...well, Whedonesque.