How do you feel about the objectification of women and the sexualisation of minors in East Asian games?

[Rex Grossman]

4 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Anyone remember when they raised the age of consent in Tokyo from 12 to 14 “like the rest of Japan”? Or did I misunderstand?
 

has it been increased further still?

 

I don’t want to Google when that happened so I’ll let @Uncle Mike do it.

[Laters]

4 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Anyone remember when they raised the age of consent in Tokyo from 12 to 14 “like the rest of Japan”? Or did I misunderstand?
 

has it been increased further still?

 

 

It's actually 13.

It's a good point actually, probably helps account for the acceptance of sexualisation of what we in the West still see as minors.

 

[Unofficial Who]

8 hours ago, Stavi said:

I glad this topic has been raised, it's something thats been playing on my mind recently. I find the sexualisation of women in this games disgusting, and the sexualisation of children absolutely horrifying. I simply can't play the majority of Japanese games as a result. 

 

What I simply can't understand though is the lack of any sort of mention of this in the vast majority of major outlets (IGN, Gamespot etc.). I praise TCGS for talking about it and I guess everyones practical approach will be different, whether that being acknowledging it and moving on, ignoring it (like IGN etc.) or not engaging with it at all. 

 

I think the lack of appetite by major outlets to cover this is due to a few factors.

 

-There's a history of people involved in the industry being overprotective due to the overly tight restrictions the industry was under until somewhat recent times. No one in Australia wants to draw attention to dodgy actors because until recent years any game that had content that was over M (suitable for 15 year olds) was just banned outright. Germany had that list for the longest time. America had hearings because for the longest time videogames were a convenient scapegoat when it came to gun violence.

 

-IGN, Gamespot and other "big" players aren't big players anymore. No-one from the big outlets is going to risk Nintendo's ire.

 

-And the big one. We can't have these conversations anymore without risk mitigation. While the Tropes videos did change the industry in the west for the better the backlash against them drove many voices out of the industry. Forget about offending publishers or even your readers. There is a certain segment of the internet that will react and react badly at any criticism of what they like. And the cost benefit analysis favours just not bringing it up.

 

I do think the Japanese game industry is at risk of creating a negative feedback loop which has affected anime and manga. Where you get a sales spike by pandering or appealing to a certain fanbase leading other fans in walking away which leads to needing to appeal even more to that smaller fanbase. I think it's only starting to recover from that sort of ever decreasing spiral.

[SeanR]

6 minutes ago, Totoro said:

 

It's actually 13.

It's a good point actually, probably helps account for the acceptance of sexualisation of what we in the West still see as minors.

 

it could be phased out.

 

like that country that’s raising the age of smoking by a year, every twelve months, until all the smokers have died out

 

or something.

[edit]

[New Zealand]
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/legal-age-someone-can-buy-cigarettes-should-rise-by-a-year-every-year-review-recommends-12630498

[Gabe]

1 hour ago, Totoro said:

 

It's actually 13.

It's a good point actually, probably helps account for the acceptance of sexualisation of what we in the West still see as minors.

 

Out of curiosity I quickly googled and this link has the age of consent around the world and, assuming it is accurate (Wikipedia concurs), seeing Germany as 14 has really surprised me. Indeed, there are a few European countries with 14 (including Austria, Bulgaria, Estonia), and wasn't Spain 13 or something not all that long ago? (It's 16 now.)

 

I suppose the question I don't actually want to know the answer to is whether or not there is a general acceptance of adults having sex with 13-year olds in Japan, or if the law is more around the understanding that (barely) teenagers might have a fumble? If it's the former, then perhaps that is part of the reason for what is seen in their games and other media.

 

It does look like there are calls for/discussions on upping it to 16 though: https://japantoday.com/category/national/japanese-government-proposes-raising-age-of-consent-from-current-13-to-16

[Broker]

4 hours ago, Rex Grossman said:

That’s a great example although the campaign was surely targeting women (and not even girls) rather than creepy men and I doubt very few women using Mac cosmetics are hoping to look like a small child.

 

I do think it ties into the way that young women are expected and encouraged to behave in order to be attractive though. Women may not be consciously trying to look like children but they are being told through advertising that they should buy the products of a woman who is considered to be very attractive by our society and is dressing up like a small child. That’s damaging, especially for the younger women seeing that. 

 

4 hours ago, Uncle Mike said:

I think my point wasn't to try to whatabout it, but more to say that the thrust in here is that the games are pervy because the Japanese society is pervy. And I wonder if, to an extent, we're just seeing different pervy presentations and a little more blind to our own through familiarity.

 

That's not to downplay any of the examples people mention at all. The preponderance of very sexually-presented minors in particular seems a huge issue that should absolutely be called out as long-overdue for addressing.

Yeah I really agree with this. I’m absolutely not suggesting that the examples raised in the OP are acceptable or positive, or should be overlooked. But there is definitely an element of our society’s ways of both sexualising and infantalising women are being overlooked through cultural differences whilst the unfamiliar forms of these same issues are more visible to people from our culture. These are global issues, and suggesting that the West is somehow “doing better” in this one minor area is a dangerous stance to take when women here are experiencing the same pressures and abuses as those in Japan. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter if men feel creepy, it matters if media encourages men to attack, abuse and dehumanise women. And that’s an issue that we’re just as guilt of as everywhere else in the world. 

 

 

 

 

[therearerules]

Sorry Broker but that just reads like you're trying to shut down discussion on this issue by fighting strawmen. Nobody is saying Western cultures have it correct, but it's hardly dangerous to expect critics to stop ignoring it every time a videogame from there has young sexualised women.

[Orion]

7 hours ago, Qazimod said:

 

The "casting" of the main party was always a bit rubbish - I think it got brought up once or twice in our GOTY round-up. The guys were a diverse range of old, out of shape losers and misfits...and then you had Saeko and (the optional) Eri who were relatively lithe and attractive and "safe" designs by comparison.

 

Are you forgetting about Joon-gi Han ? He looks like a Kpop Idol or a male model. 

 

I thought he was based on Kpop group Big Bang member Top.

[Broker]

1 hour ago, therearerules said:

Sorry Broker but that just reads like you're trying to shut down discussion on this issue by fighting strawmen. Nobody is saying Western cultures have it correct, but it's hardly dangerous to expect critics to stop ignoring it every time a videogame from there has young sexualised women.

I’m absolutely not suggesting discussion of it stop, rather that the context of this thread is mildly racist and seems to think that Western journalists and consumers should head off on some moral crusade to fix Japanese attitudes to women whilst continuing to ignore the rampant sexist bullshit that is still present and visible in Western media. It’s not like the websites that host the journalists and reviews that are apparently supposed to speak up more on this issue are entirely focused on games, they also cover other general nerd culture stuff like superhero movies, comics, cartoons, cosplay and more. Even if you accept the premise of the thread, which seems to rely on the idea that Western developed games are now doing a better job of representing women (where honestly I’d argue a better description would be “mildly less awful”), the journalists who are being called on to push this issue are also covering numerous Western forms of media that they are also not pointing out the misogynistic tropes in. 
 

The point is that sexism and negative attitudes to women are persistent global issues and the idea that it’s some sort of Japanese issue that we should all be campaigning against specifically is the product of cultural blind spots where we’re conditioned not to focus on the issues present in the media we consume. Western nerd culture is very similar to otaku culture and some mild reduction in the level of naked women in western games is no reason to think that it’s time to adopt a hypocritical moral high ground. 

[TomatoConvenienceStore]

Not really bothered my it, teenage stuff really. Like others said, it's not exactly unique to Japan - just that they have more presence with video games as opposed to like music.

 

When I was a teen I defo had ecchi stuff and pin up girls up on my walls and that. If a 46 year old wants to go and play Senran Kagura or whatever that's their choice lol but they are not the demographic being targeted.

 

And if you do...Just don't turn around and say "It'S fOr tHE GaMepLay!!!" and expect me to believe you lmao

[carlospie]

I love it. 

[Isaac]

1 hour ago, Broker said:

The point is that sexism and negative attitudes to women are persistent global issues and the idea that it’s some sort of Japanese issue that we should all be campaigning against specifically is the product of cultural blind spots where we’re conditioned not to focus on the issues present in the media we consume. Western nerd culture is very similar to otaku culture and some mild reduction in the level of naked women in western games is no reason to think that it’s time to adopt a hypocritical moral high ground. 

 

The sexualisation of children (and normalisation of adult>child sexual relationships) in Japanese nerd culture is totally and completely different to western nerd culture.

 

Entire plotlines, character ages, and rewrites happen to these games before they hit our shores as otherwise they wouldn't even see release.

 

There is nothing hypocritical about pointing out it is fucked up that Japanese mainstream videogames sexualise characters that are under the age of consent, and that these games shouldn't be promoted by major publishers in the west.

[Qazimod]

3 hours ago, Orion said:

 

Are you forgetting about Joon-gi Han ? He looks like a Kpop Idol or a male model. 

 

I thought he was based on Kpop group Big Bang member Top.

 

I had a feeling someone would bring him up. I totally agree, but I don't think he single-handedly rebalances the diversity (or lack of) for Ichiban's allies. If all of the guys were as cool as Han, then sure.  

[Rex Grossman]

2 hours ago, Broker said:

I’m absolutely not suggesting discussion of it stop, rather that the context of this thread is mildly racist and seems to think that Western journalists and consumers should head off on some moral crusade to fix Japanese attitudes to women whilst continuing to ignore the rampant sexist bullshit that is still present and visible in Western media. It’s not like the websites that host the journalists and reviews that are apparently supposed to speak up more on this issue are entirely focused on games, they also cover other general nerd culture stuff like superhero movies, comics, cartoons, cosplay and more. Even if you accept the premise of the thread, which seems to rely on the idea that Western developed games are now doing a better job of representing women (where honestly I’d argue a better description would be “mildly less awful”), the journalists who are being called on to push this issue are also covering numerous Western forms of media that they are also not pointing out the misogynistic tropes in. 
 

The point is that sexism and negative attitudes to women are persistent global issues and the idea that it’s some sort of Japanese issue that we should all be campaigning against specifically is the product of cultural blind spots where we’re conditioned not to focus on the issues present in the media we consume. Western nerd culture is very similar to otaku culture and some mild reduction in the level of naked women in western games is no reason to think that it’s time to adopt a hypocritical moral high ground. 

I think it’s massively unfair to say people calling out sexualised images of children in Japanese are being racist.

 

I don’t think anyone here has suggested Western media is perfect and that we all need to fix Japan like George W Bush going off to fix Iraq.

 

But bad things in the West do not excuse bad things somewhere else. Britain’s shameful colonial history does not negate the country’s opposition to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine for example.

 

Its not about anyone having the moral high ground it’s about something being really unpleasant and people saying it puts them off games. 

[spanky debrest]

I feel like a learned a bit about this subject by listening to Japanese women / feminists talk about how postwar Japan - the new US client state - was forced to modernise in every way except socially.

 

The misogyny and rape culture and white supremacy and the way they look at their recent past similarly to how we Brits look back fondly at our behaviour on the global stage is part of their fabric - as that shit is part of ours.

 

White supremacist patriarchal capitalist societies produce this rot naturally. Japanese history just puts a unique spin on it.

[Ryan]

I have a female avatar in Cyberpunk who keeps on being naked (automatically, I'm not doing it). Doesn't help that my playtime is so limited I need to spend the first 10 mins re-learning the controls every time I play..

[JamesC]

8 hours ago, spanky debrest said:

I feel like a learned a bit about this subject by listening to Japanese women / feminists talk about how postwar Japan - the new US client state - was forced to modernise in every way except socially.

 

The misogyny and rape culture and white supremacy and the way they look at their recent past similarly to how we Brits look back fondly at our behaviour on the global stage is part of their fabric - as that shit is part of ours.

 

White supremacist patriarchal capitalist societies produce this rot naturally. Japanese history just puts a unique spin on it.

I'm not sure I understand this. What does white supremacy have to do with Japanese society? 

[Darwock]

Possibly referring to the American post-war influence.

[mwaawm]

This issue is by no means unique to japanese game culture.....I recall in my impressionable youth the attraction of the comic book stores in central London with their glossy pages filled with Lady Death, Glory etc..... catering to an emerging adolescent / repressed adult segment of society was seen as perfectly acceptable capitalism and whilst I long ago gave up buying comics / graphic novels I would be surprised if it's progressed very far from my memories. 

 

With regard to fire emblem I loved the old games but then they ruined them some point after awakenings....sounds like they continue to do so

[ScouserInExile]

Going back to the game mentioned in the original post, would the gameplay or story of any of the games suffer in any way if the female characters were a few / many years older or less objectified? Would they be demonstrably worse games without the sexual content?

 

I don't tend to play many East Asian produced games, so I have no real concept of the content. But the levels of whataboutery, handwaving as "it's just their culture" and accusations of racism lead me to believe they wouldn't suffer in any way if the content was, for want of abetter term, more acceptable. Otherwise, that'd be the thrust of the arguments. Though I'd say that if you're defending content that is clearly aimed at paedophiles, you need to have a long, hard look at yourself.

 

The only direct experience I have with the de-sexualisation of characters in a game is Mortal Kombat. The outfits the female characters had were getting embarrassingly tiny and they all had their collective tots and arse out. Mortal Kombat 11 completely reversed this and had all the female characters covered up, virtually head to toe in some cases. There was some whining from sone sections of the fanbase, claiming the developers were pandering to political correctness and the like. But the game hasn't suffered in any meaningful way as a result. It's widely regarded to be the best of the series and is definitely the best selling. 

 

[Jamie John]

21 minutes ago, ScouserInExile said:

Going back to the game mentioned in the original post, would the gameplay or story of any of the games suffer in any way if the female characters were a few / many years older or less objectified? Would they be demonstrably worse games without the sexual content?

 

I don't tend to play many East Asian produced games, so I have no real concept of the content. But the levels of whataboutery, handwaving as "it's just their culture" and accusations of racism lead me to believe they wouldn't suffer in any way if the content was, for want of abetter term, more acceptable. Otherwise, that'd be the thrust of the arguments. Though I'd say that if you're defending content that is clearly aimed at paedophiles, you need to have a long, hard look at yourself.

 

The only direct experience I have with the de-sexualisation of characters in a game is Mortal Kombat. The outfits the female characters had were getting embarrassingly tiny and they all had their collective tots and arse out. Mortal Kombat 11 completely reversed this and had all the female characters covered up, virtually head to toe in some cases. There was some whining from sone sections of the fanbase, claiming the developers were pandering to political correctness and the like. But the game hasn't suffered in any meaningful way as a result. It's widely regarded to be the best of the series and is definitely the best selling. 

 

 

I haven't played the game, but I'd be extremely surprised if taking out the objectification of women/sexualisation of minors would have any appreciable impact on the story whatsoever. That stuff is superficial and arbitrary by its very nature and would be relatively simple (you would imagine) to omit. The fact that (some of) it is changed when the games are imported to the West is testament to this.

[Qazimod]

I remember hearing something on a podcast years ago where people were talking about DoA Xtreme's $93 Costume Pass or whatever the fuck it was. A point was raised about how one of the newer DoA fighting games at the time (maybe 6? I dunno) was toning down the sexualisation of its costumes, and some people assumed that Tecmo wanted to be a bit more sensible with the fighting game side of things and maybe continue the creepy outfits in the volleyball game.  But then the point was made that the fighting game still ended up with a bunch of creepy outfits as DLC, because that's where the money is.

 

I kind of wonder if DLC-gating is how you could end up with more "acceptable" products. On the one hand, you'd have to opt in to the creepy stuff, but on the other hand the existence of the DLC would still be problematic.

[Unofficial Who]

3 hours ago, Qazimod said:

I remember hearing something on a podcast years ago where people were talking about DoA Xtreme's $93 Costume Pass or whatever the fuck it was. A point was raised about how one of the newer DoA fighting games at the time (maybe 6? I dunno) was toning down the sexualisation of its costumes, and some people assumed that Tecmo wanted to be a bit more sensible with the fighting game side of things and maybe continue the creepy outfits in the volleyball game.  But then the point was made that the fighting game still ended up with a bunch of creepy outfits as DLC, because that's where the money is.

 

Sure was where the money was in terms of rinsing people who wanted the creepy outfits.

 

https://www.ign.com/articles/dead-or-alive-6-charges-money-each-time-you-change-a-characters-hair-colour

 

Quote

Those new DLC costumes are sold separately or as a pack that costs $39.99 / £32.99. The costumes are also included in the Season 4 pass, along with other DLC released between January and March 2020, and that costs $89.99 / £73.99.

This new DLC adds to the long list of DLC that is now available to purchase for Dead or Alive 6, which at its smallest cost when bought on Steam as season passes totals to about $343 / £280. If you were to buy each DLC individually, and therefore at the highest cost, you're looking at a grand total of around $900 / £776.

 

[Gabe]

4 hours ago, ScouserInExile said:

The only direct experience I have with the de-sexualisation of characters in a game is Mortal Kombat. The outfits the female characters had were getting embarrassingly tiny and they all had their collective tots and arse out.

 

There's definitely no need for them to bring their kids to the fights, no.

[megamixer]

It doesn't bother me personally.

 

When it comes to what I personally consume, I do draw the line at the underage-looking girls and sexualised schoolgirl anime stuff because I personally don't feel comfortable playing that, when it's obviously been presented in that way to arouse or interest certain consumers. I DID play those kinds of games and watch smutty anime when I was a teenager (and even in my early 20's) but now I just don't really want any part of it. I think the the boundaries have been pushed further and further in recent years and there is more and more questionable stuff than, say, 10 or 15 years ago imo.

 

I did play a ton of DOA5 and buy quite a lot of risque costume DLC for example, but I have never played as Marie Rose as she just makes me feel like a paedo. That character has become one of the most popular in the series for a relative newcomer though, and that fandom isn't exclusive to Japan which is...interesting.

 

On the flipside, I don't play games (or consume any media) for progressive narratives or characters that reflect the real world. Gaming is not serious at all imo, and so trying to put all of that stuff in there is a big no-no for me. Moreover, it is a brief escapism from reality here and there for the few hours max that I put into the hobby these days. I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with Camilla's tits in Fire Emblem or Cammy's arse in Street Fighter. I'm old and ugly enough to know the difference between reality and fantasy. I'm also a straight man so I would be an absolute hypocrite if I donned a white robe and preached down from Olympus about how I don't find videogame T&A easy on the eye.

[Rex Grossman]

3 minutes ago, megamixer said:

I don't play games (or consume any media) for progressive narratives or characters that reflect the real world. Gaming is not serious at all imo, and so trying to put all of that stuff in there is a big no-no for me. Moreover, it is a brief escapism from reality

The reality that women and minorities shouldn’t be stereotypes?

 

Yes I can see why you would avoid media that was progressive…

[thesnwmn]

41 minutes ago, megamixer said:

It doesn't bother me personally.

 

When it comes to what I personally consume, I do draw the line at the underage-looking girls and sexualised schoolgirl anime stuff because I personally don't feel comfortable playing that, when it's obviously been presented in that way to arouse or interest certain consumers. I DID play those kinds of games and watch smutty anime when I was a teenager (and even in my early 20's) but now I just don't really want any part of it. I think the the boundaries have been pushed further and further in recent years and there is more and more questionable stuff than, say, 10 or 15 years ago imo.

 

I did play a ton of DOA5 and buy quite a lot of risque costume DLC for example, but I have never played as Marie Rose as she just makes me feel like a paedo. That character has become one of the most popular in the series for a relative newcomer though, and that fandom isn't exclusive to Japan which is...interesting.

 

On the flipside, I don't play games (or consume any media) for progressive narratives or characters that reflect the real world. Gaming is not serious at all imo, and so trying to put all of that stuff in there is a big no-no for me. Moreover, it is a brief escapism from reality here and there for the few hours max that I put into the hobby these days. I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with Camilla's tits in Fire Emblem or Cammy's arse in Street Fighter. I'm old and ugly enough to know the difference between reality and fantasy. I'm also a straight man so I would be an absolute hypocrite if I donned a white robe and preached down from Olympus about how I don't find videogame T&A easy on the eye.

 

Just wow.

[AK Bell]

To remove some whatabout-ism, I've worked on a few games where we've had to make a special Japanese version to remove the blood and gore. You can't even just comment it out I think, we removed the assets. 

 

If we can to do that, they can make a version where these poor lasses can wear a jumper or something.

 

I'm kind of okay with it being out there if that's what it says on the tin. And probably made with a domestic audience in mind. That Neptuna series just got a new version, for example. I know I can avoid it, someone else can enjoy that trash. Obviously there are lines that shouldn't be crossed but if you want to wank over an overly caricatured drawing then I'm not going to ban it. 

 

Personally I mostly find it annoying when the game is 99% not that. Dragon Quest XI was fine except for puff-puff with bunny girls and for a while being stuck with some skimpy costume on one character as the original, not pervy, costume went missing as I was rattling through them all. It makes it worse in a "this is normal and acceptable" kind of way. 

 

But I can guarantee that 1% is when my wife walks in like I'm watching some weird porn. "It's just how they make them... It's culturally appropriate... IT'S CULTURALLY APPROPRIATE!!!"

 

At least I save some money on DLC and Ultimate/GOTY/Day 1 editions. You should be put on a register if you buy them.

 

How about a jumper and sweatpants pack?

 

 

[Jamie John]

1 hour ago, AK Bell said:

Personally I mostly find it annoying when the game is 99% not that. Dragon Quest XI was fine except for puff-puff with bunny girls and for a while being stuck with some skimpy costume on one character as the original, not pervy, costume went missing as I was rattling through them all. It makes it worse in a "this is normal and acceptable" kind of way. 

 

Yes, this is true - it's all very well to just say 'If you don't like it, don't play the games', but, quite often, we're talking about the creepy shit only taking up 1% of the game's overall content, but it still sticks out like a sore thumb nonetheless. It's especially frustrating when it appears in an otherwise great game, as it would be so easy to omit.

 

Case in point, I'm currently playing Phoenix Wright: Trials and Tribulations as part of the Ace Attorney Trilogy on Switch. I'm having a great time with it: it's funny, well-written and looks beautiful on the OLED. The only issue I have with it is its presentation of Mia Fey, your dead mentor who very occasionally appears in ghost form to give you advice, and her comedy anime knockers:

 

Spoiler

 

There's no reason for the game to present her in this way beyond pure titillation (no pun intended). It just seems so arbitrary and grubby, as if a game about solving murders and standing up for defendants in court is too dry, so you apparently *need* a well-endowed female character with a low neckline (or no neckline at all, as the case may be) to sex the game up. I think it's a bit pathetic, to be honest.

[KRP]

It’s like having someone pawing at your crotch whilst you play. It just feel so base to me.