How do you feel about the objectification of women and the sexualisation of minors in East Asian games?

[Kryptonian]

34 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Like Qix clones that have the saucy photo reveals.

 

Puzznic was another like this - "The arcade and FM Towns versions had adult content, showing a naked woman at the end of the level; this was removed in the international arcade release (but not the US one) and other home ports."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puzznic

 

Completely unnecessary for a puzzle game. Or any game really.

 

Gem'x sounds similarly creepy from it's wikipedia article:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gem'X

 

"Gem'X originally caused special interest because of the various anime-style beautiful young women shown between levels, in very skimpy clothing, although their intimate parts aren't shown until the final picture for completing the game."

[therearerules]

1 hour ago, Dig Dug said:

The blades in that game were designed by multiple artists, some of who are known Hentai artists.

 

On that note, the lead artist for the Etrian Odyssey games is a Lolicon artist, which caused a massive stink when he was commissioned to do art for Fire Emblem Heroes due to how he made the female characters look like children.

I find it bizarre that that's a job, rather than something which gets you shunned. Anybody who starts whatabouting western culture either is unaware of how accepted this is in Japan, or how unacceptable it is here. You wouldn't get a western game as mainstream as Fire Emblem having a sexualised child 'who's actually a 1000 year old dragon'.

 

It's a real shame as well, because one of my favourite games, VLR, suffers from this. I can't recommend it as a result, because adding the caveat that two women, one young, don't wear tops, is ridiculous.

[Anne Summers]

57 minutes ago, SeanR said:

I had the other half ask me to turn off an 8-ball game on my Pandora. Some Japanese pool game where a young woman reclines in a bikini changing pose after each (good) shot. 
 

I was that engrossed in the game of pool that I didn’t even notice it. Mind you I can’t recall he name of the game either, couldn’t have been that good.

 

but it does seem that tittilation as a performance reward in video games is unnecessary. Like Qix clones that have the saucy photo reveals.

 

play games or look at naked ladies. Why does one follow the other as a fundamentally Japanese phenomenon?

 

and then I remembered Sam fox strip poker…

Sam Fox was in the 80s though - that's getting on for half a century ago. Most of the people who were involved with making that game and deciding that it was legitimate entertainment for the young demographic of computer gamers are dead now, probably.

The problem with the Japanese stuff is that it's happening now, and even though most of the world has started to go through a process of reassessing the treatment and portrayal of women and girl in media and entertainment, Japanese society as a whole just hasn't been interested. A perfect example was the Metal Gear Solid guy's reaction to the outcry over the female character who went into combat in a bikini. 

From what I understand, this is starting to change, and there's a growing feminist movement in the country and plenty of young people are speaking out. And I don't think it's helpful to those people to hand-wring over issues like cultural imperialism whenever we in the west discuss the societal issues faced by Japan.

[Uncle Mike]

If it's societal issues, I don't know that there's a huge gulf between some of the stuff we're talking about in these games and, for example, Britney Spears in "hit me baby one more time." I guess that's probably longer ago now than I realise (googles - 2016!) but still. It's not like we're free from issues here ourselves.

[Darwock]

13 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

A perfect example was the Metal Gear Solid guy's reaction to the outcry over the female character who went into combat in a bikini. 

 

I recently learned from a David Hayter narrated video on YouTube that in MGS4 the BB Corps actresses did their motion capture performances for the weird sections after you defeat them (when they chase after you on foot) entirely in the nude - they were supposed to appear that way in game too but someone stopped it and so they were turned into skin-tight suits in the game.

[Rex Grossman]

1 hour ago, SeanR said:

Iand then I remembered Sam fox strip poker…

The game of strip poker predates any video game version though.

 

And the idea of seeing Sam Fox topless was very normal at the time because of page 3.

 

As a culture we came to a point where the prevailing wisdom was page 3 was really creepy and a terrible idea. 
 

Would be nice if Japan has a similar movement against sexualising children.

[Jamie John]

4 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

If it's societal issues, I don't know that there's a huge gulf between some of the stuff we're talking about in these games and, for example, Britney Spears in "hit me baby one more time." I guess that's probably longer ago now than I realise (googles - 2016!) but still. It's not like we're free from issues here ourselves.

 

That song was released in 1999.

[therearerules]

1 minute ago, Uncle Mike said:

If it's societal issues, I don't know that there's a huge gulf between some of the stuff we're talking about in these games and, for example, Britney Spears in "hit me baby one more time." I guess that's probably longer ago now than I realise (googles - 2016!) but still. It's not like we're free from issues here ourselves.

2016? Pretty sure that was over 20 years ago. And if you're reaching back that far to say that's equivalent to stuff coming from Japan now then I'd just stop.

[Rex Grossman]

6 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

If it's societal issues, I don't know that there's a huge gulf between some of the stuff we're talking about in these games and, for example, Britney Spears in "hit me baby one more time." I guess that's probably longer ago now than I realise (googles - 2016!) but still. It's not like we're free from issues here ourselves.

Your Google is broken.

[Kryptonian]

8 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

"hit me baby one more time." I guess that's probably longer ago now than I realise (googles - 2016!)

 

3 minutes ago, Jamie John said:

 

That song was released in 1999.

 

1998 

 

What did you google @Uncle Mike!?

[Uncle Mike]

Wow. My google is very broken. And apparently I don't sense check things either. It was just the first example that came to mind. I'm sure if I were still young enough to know anything by Ariana Grande I'd have a more recent example. There's a clear route for a set of younger female performers where they are encouraged to Lolita themselves, and I'm not sure we're entirely standing outside of the greenhouse when throwing stones.

 

EDIT: Google linked the wrong song for me!

[JamesC]

1 hour ago, Broker said:

I suppose a related question is whether it is less harmful that a lot of Japan’s sexualised women are cartoons, drawings or 3D models, where the majority of the West’s sexualised women are real women being filmed and photographed actually wearing those outfits and doing those things. 

I don't want to derail the thread away from games too much but it may be worth pointing out that so much of the teen girl sexualization we see in the west is aimed at a teen girl audience.

If you look at Britney Spears, Girls Aloud, Little Mix etc - all criticised for their highly sexualised image - their audiences are predominantly teen and pre-teen girls.
It's like they're feeding in to an audience of girls who're discovering their own sexuality and saying - 'This is how you titilate men. If you want to be popular, be like this'.

 

That's problematic in its own way but not feeding the male gaze (or male wish fullfilment) in quite the same as game mechanics which say 'win races to score hot chicks' or whatever.  

[therearerules]

11 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Wow. My google is very broken. And apparently I don't sense check things either. It was just the first example that came to mind. I'm sure if I were still young enough to know anything by Ariana Grande I'd have a more recent example. There's a clear route for a set of younger female performers where they are encouraged to Lolita themselves, and I'm not sure we're entirely standing outside of the greenhouse when throwing stones.

 

EDIT: Google linked the wrong song for me!

You can't hypothesise recent examples in lieu of an actual recent example! The sexualisation of female performers is a significantly more complex issue, one which nobody here is arguing for, and in no way excuses the videogames sexualising minors released from Japan.

[Uncle Mike]

I don't really think I was trying to excuse it! I think what you see in a lot of these Japanese games is atrocious, and it certainly means I don't buy them. I'm merely saying I don't know if we're exactly clean in that regard. And I hardly think it's hypothetical. It'd be really odd if I actually had the list of current examples to hand off the top of my head at my age.

[Broker]

23 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Wow. My google is very broken. And apparently I don't sense check things either. It was just the first example that came to mind. I'm sure if I were still young enough to know anything by Ariana Grande I'd have a more recent example. There's a clear route for a set of younger female performers where they are encouraged to Lolita themselves, and I'm not sure we're entirely standing outside of the greenhouse when throwing stones.

 

EDIT: Google linked the wrong song for me!

 

15 minutes ago, JamesC said:

I don't want to derail the thread away from games too much but it may be worth pointing out that so much of the teen girl sexualization we see in the west is aimed at a teen girl audience.

If you look at Britney Spears, Girls Aloud, Little Mix etc - all criticised for their highly sexualised image - their audiences are predominantly teen and pre-teen girls.
It's like they're feeding in to an audience of girls who're discovering their own sexuality and saying - 'This is how you titilate men. If you want to be popular, be like this'.

 

That's problematic in its own way but not feeding the male gaze (or male wish fullfilment) in quite the same as game mechanics which say 'win races to score hot chicks' or whatever.  

 

9 minutes ago, therearerules said:

You can't hypothesise recent examples in lieu of an actual recent example! The sexualisation of female performers is a significantly more complex issue, one which nobody here is arguing for, and in no way excuses the videogames sexualising minors released from Japan.

As an example of these issues Ariana Grande’s mac cosmetics adverts feature her in extremely revealing clothing in a set designed to look like a doll house. I know that because one of my students (a 15 year old girl) used the example of these images of a hyper sexualised 29 year old woman dressed up and set to look like a little girl as an example in her media research. 

[Rex Grossman]

10 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

I don't really think I was trying to excuse it! I think what you see in a lot of these Japanese games is atrocious, and it certainly means I don't buy them. I'm merely saying I don't know if we're exactly clean in that regard. And I hardly think it's hypothetical. It'd be really odd if I actually had the list of current examples to hand off the top of my head at my age.

I don’t think anyone believe the West is squeaky clean for this, just that Japanese norms are really creepy for most of us. 
 

I also don’t think you’ll find many examples like Baby Hit Me One More Time nowadays either. They’ll be there but attitudes are changing.

[Uncle Mike]

I do think it's fair to say we're in a better position now than the 90s where all girl bands had to get their kit off in Loaded as part of their promotional campaigns. That was always icky. It feels like maybe our female celebs are more in control of what they're doing? (I confess to not really knowing.)

[Rex Grossman]

1 minute ago, Broker said:

 

 

As an example of these issues Ariana Grande’s mac cosmetics adverts feature her in extremely revealing clothing in a set designed to look like a doll house. I know that because one of my students (a 15 year old girl) used the example of these images of a hyper sexualised 29 year old woman dressed up and set to look like a little girl as an example in her media research. 

That’s a great example although the campaign was surely targeting women (and not even girls) rather than creepy men and I doubt very few women using Mac cosmetics are hoping to look like a small child.

 

[therearerules]

Even at a societal level, both cultures have issues in the music industry, but Japan also has hostess bars. I guess I just don't understand what point people are trying to make when they bring these examples up- the only relevance to the thread seems to be whataboutary. Issues in music production don't change anything about some of the worst examples released on Switch.

[JamesC]

2 minutes ago, therearerules said:

Even at a societal level, both cultures have issues in the music industry, but Japan also has hostess bars. I guess I just don't understand what point people are trying to make when they bring these examples up- the only relevance to the thread seems to be whataboutary. Issues in music production don't change anything about some of the worst examples released on Switch.

I agree. There are a plethora of issues here but the thread title is pretty specific and I think objectification of young girls and minors in East Asian games is very much worthy of debate as a stand-alone topic. There are enough examples and it has enough well-established tropes to be separated from the topic of sexualization in media as a whole.

[Uncle Mike]

I think my point wasn't to try to whatabout it, but more to say that the thrust in here is that the games are pervy because the Japanese society is pervy. And I wonder if, to an extent, we're just seeing different pervy presentations and a little more blind to our own through familiarity.

 

That's not to downplay any of the examples people mention at all. The preponderance of very sexually-presented minors in particular seems a huge issue that should absolutely be called out as long-overdue for addressing.

[Zael]

42 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

Wow. My google is very broken. And apparently I don't sense check things either. It was just the first example that came to mind. I'm sure if I were still young enough to know anything by Ariana Grande I'd have a more recent example. There's a clear route for a set of younger female performers where they are encouraged to Lolita themselves, and I'm not sure we're entirely standing outside of the greenhouse when throwing stones.

 

EDIT: Google linked the wrong song for me!

 

 

You know when someone brings up something from your past and then dates it and you feel unbelievably old? For a brief moment you just gave me the opposite of that so thanks!

[Isaac]

1 hour ago, Uncle Mike said:

I think my point wasn't to try to whatabout it, but more to say that the thrust in here is that the games are pervy because the Japanese society is pervy. And I wonder if, to an extent, we're just seeing different pervy presentations and a little more blind to our own through familiarity.

 

When drawing cartoon child porn is a job people have that gets them work on a video game in the west, then sure, we are throwing stones from glass houses.

[QuackQuack]

I don’t like it, but it’s pretty much the norm in Japan. Rather than trying to impose my ideals I just won’t buy or engage with the thing. 
 

There have been some semi-successful movements happening around discrimination against women - KuToo, or Mieko Kawakami’s novels and talks come to mind. This kind of stuff in anime/games isn’t  brought up much. It’s just too ingrained and small fry. 

[Stavi]

I glad this topic has been raised, it's something thats been playing on my mind recently. I find the sexualisation of women in this games disgusting, and the sexualisation of children absolutely horrifying. I simply can't play the majority of Japanese games as a result. 

 

What I simply can't understand though is the lack of any sort of mention of this in the vast majority of major outlets (IGN, Gamespot etc.). I praise TCGS for talking about it and I guess everyones practical approach will be different, whether that being acknowledging it and moving on, ignoring it (like IGN etc.) or not engaging with it at all. 

[Rex Grossman]

20 minutes ago, QuackQuack said:

Rather than trying to impose my ideals I just won’t buy or engage with the thing. 

It’s not like anyone was suggesting a CIA-style regime change operation.

 

I doubt we have any power to influence Japanese culture.

 

[Anne Summers]

Did you really think Britney Spears only released Hit Me Baby One More Time 7 years ago @Uncle Mike?

[Jamie John]

17 minutes ago, QuackQuack said:

It’s just too ingrained and small fry. 

 

This is a bit of a contradiction, isn't it? I don't think something like this can be both ingrained in Japanese culture (which I agree it is) but also be considered simultaneously insignificant. And given the popularity of anime/manga/otaku culture in Japan, it seems like it's very significant.

 

I'd be interested to hear things from a Japanese woman's point of view and how she feels about seeing all of this stuff plastered over games, comics TV, adverts, store fronts and so on. I'm glad you've mentioned some feminist movements within Japan, because I wasn't aware of any.

[Rex Grossman]

5 minutes ago, Anne Summers said:

Did you really think Britney Spears only released Hit Me Baby One More Time 7 years ago @Uncle Mike?

I think everyone on this forum is thinking the late 90s were very recent because Goldeneye is back today.

 

[SeanR]

Anyone remember when they raised the age of consent in Tokyo from 12 to 14 “like the rest of Japan”? Or did I misunderstand?
 

has it been increased further still?