How do you feel about the objectification of women and the sexualisation of minors in East Asian games?

[Rex Grossman]

6 hours ago, cassidy said:

Wait playing and enjoying Yakuza makes me an incel?  I better tell my 26 yr old son he's a figment of my imagination. 

 

I think you need to not take things too literally and personally.

If certain games appeal to incels that doesn't mean literally everyone who plays them is also an incel. Posting on a forum that you can't be an incel because you have a 26 year old son is just a tad defensive.

[SeanR]

Someone post the DOA XBV Edge cover!

[Jamie John]

4 hours ago, Broker said:

There’s no country that is producing media with health attitudes to young women or sex. 

 

I think that's true, but if we're limiting the scope from 'media' to games, and games published by recognised companies (as opposed to some of the porn-disguised-as-games dreck you can find on Steam, or - increasingly - the Nintendo eShop) then I do think that Western-published games are much more progressive in this regard. Not historically, but within the last 5-10 years. I don't think Rockstar, for example, would be able to get away with their portrayal of women from the PS2-era GTAs nowadays.

 

And when it comes to the quasi-paedophilic representation of young girls, I can't think of any analogue for that in Western games, modern or otherwise, when you very often see it in contemporary Japanese games (Fire Emblem Engage, Persona 5, Xenoblade 3, for example - all games published or re-published in the last 12 months).

[Jamie John]

9 hours ago, cassidy said:

Japanese games have an issue with their depiction of women. 

 

More news at 11.   

 

9 hours ago, Darwock said:

Water is wet.

 

This is what I'm talking about, though - this collective shrugging and further perpetuation of the idea that Japanese games get a free pass just because they're Japanese. Shouldn't that be challenged? Because, at the moment, it more or less goes unchallenged by the Western media; apart from the occasional editorial, you never see major outlets mentioning this stuff, far less challenging it. Do we need the GameSpots or IGNs or Eurogamers of the world to say, 'Actually, we're not going to endorse or platform this videogame that incentivises you to bang a 17-year-old, one who dresses like (and has the emotion intelligence of) an 11-year-old - that shit isn't ok anymore'? If this is happening already, then I'm not aware of it.

 

And what about the national press? God knows there have been enough stories about violence in videogames (both Western and Eastern) over the last thirty-forty years, so why don't we see any headlines about the portrayal of women and children?

 

I don't want to sound sanctimonious or holier-than-thou - I've played, and enjoyed, a lot of the games I've mentioned, in fact. But I find it notable that there's seemingly little to no resistance to this sort of thing in 2023 when the portrayal of women in Western-published games has come such a long way over the last decade (while still being by no means perfect). Those changes came about in no small part because of the challenges and questions raised by the consumers of those games, so why haven't Eastern games been challenged in the same way?

[Isaac]

26 minutes ago, Jamie John said:

 

 

This is what I'm talking about, though - this collective shrugging and further perpetuation of the idea that Japanese games get a free pass just because they're Japanese. Shouldn't that be challenged? Because, at the moment, it more or less goes unchallenged by the Western media; apart from the occasional editorial, you never see major outlets mentioning this stuff, far less challenging it. Do we need the GameSpots or IGNs or Eurogamers of the world to say, 'Actually, we're not got to endorse or platform this videogame that incentivises you to bang a 17-year-old, one who dresses like (and has the emotion intelligence of) an 11-year-old - that shit isn't ok anymore'? If this is happening already, then I'm not aware of it.

 

It absolutely should be challenged, but we are veering into cultural imperialism here (and more generally in this thread).

 

It should be challenged from within Japan, by Japanese people.

 

Although given how sexist and misogynistic Japanese society is, I think we will be waiting quite a long time.

[Strafe]

8 hours ago, Darwock said:

Water is wet.

 

Actually, it isn’t! Wet is a property that water gives things when it saturates them. Water itself isn’t actually wet.

 

I’ll be here all week.

[SeanR]

Is water the only liquid that can make things “wet”?

[robdood]

2 minutes ago, Isaac said:

 

It absolutely should be challenged, but we are veering into cultural imperialism here (and more generally in this thread).

 

It should be challenged from within Japan, by Japanese people.

I'd agree if we weren't talking about globally marketed entertainment products that fetishise paedophilia. 

 

What does the word "challenge" even mean in this context?

 

 

[Isaac]

Just now, robdood said:

I'd agree if we weren't talking about globally marketed entertainment products that fetishise paedophilia. 

 

What does the word "challenge" even mean in this context?

 

No I am in total agreement, they shouldn't be marketed or sold at all in the west, and we should be pushing back on this stuff over here.

 

I mean more generally in terms of trying to change their own internal culture.

[robdood]

1 minute ago, Isaac said:

 

No I am in total agreement, they shouldn't be marketed or sold at all in the west, and we should be pushing back on this stuff over here.

 

I mean more generally in terms of trying to change their own internal culture.

Gotcha, thanks! 

[thesnwmn]

I think that's the key here. Its about tackling our consumption of it and the way we discuss it (or don't) in games media.

 

If that results in these studios changing their practices then fantastic. If it doesn't then fine, they can enjoy their considerably smaller addressable market.

[Ninja Doctor]

17 minutes ago, SeanR said:

Is water the only liquid that can make things “wet”?

At the risk of going slightly off topic no, there are other non aqueous fluids that can wet. 

[Ninja Doctor]

I’m still waiting for more representation of the dad bod males. 
 

We’ve not all got 6 packs and 20inch biceps you know.*
 

 

 

*obviously I do…

[crisy]

This in why in some ways I have mixed feelings about the way publishers will sanitise, to some extent, the egregiously offensive stuff out of these games. I didn't find out about the extent of the homophobia in Persona 5's Japanese edition until months after I had already bought it. I wouldn't want to buy the new FE game now knowing what is in the the Japanese edition, I don't want to support its creators. But I feel like a lot of this stuff slips through the net because of the way the games get edited for the west.  Although I appreciate a lot of this stuff isn't even legal to leave in the games over here, so I think it is good if there would be more coverage around these issues so we can know what we are buying into and supporting. 

[Jamie John]

13 minutes ago, Isaac said:

It absolutely should be challenged, but we are veering into cultural imperialism here (and more generally in this thread).

 

I don't think the threat of cultural imperialism is enough to warrant this 'Eh, what-are-you-gonna-do?' attitude, though. There's a difference between saying 'I don't like these portrayals in these games and I think she should change' and saying 'You need to make your games entirely like Western ones'.

[ulala]

I've spoken about this many many times.

 

The long and the short of it is, there are games that cater for pedophiles. 

 

Now they may not want to call themselves that, but that's whats happening. Games for adults that sexualise minors for their arousal and pleasure.

[JamesC]

57 minutes ago, Isaac said:

 

It absolutely should be challenged, but we are veering into cultural imperialism here (and more generally in this thread).

 

It should be challenged from within Japan, by Japanese people.

 

Although given how sexist and misogynistic Japanese society is, I think we will be waiting quite a long time.

If the products are being marketed and sold globally it should be challenged everywhere and anywhere. That's not cultural imperialism.

[cassidy]

2 hours ago, Rex Grossman said:

 

I think you need to not take things too literally and personally.

If certain games appeal to incels that doesn't mean literally everyone who plays them is also an incel. Posting on a forum that you can't be an incel because you have a 26 year old son is just a tad defensive.

No just pointing out the idiocy of your comparison tbh. 

 

I'm positive I'm not an incel.  So have nothing to defend.  

[ulala]

4 minutes ago, JamesC said:

If the products are being marketed and sold globally it should be challenged everywhere and anywhere. That's not cultural imperialism.

 

It always shocks me that the UK press are not all over this.

 

In fact, i'm going to tip them off to try and get them banned from being imported

 

 

[Laters]

Meanwhile on RLLMJP someone has just posted - How do you feel about the glorification of violence and the fascination of war in Western games?

Camel toe close up on kicking girl on one side / Highly detailed slow motion shot of bullet going through human head on other. Both bad things to be controlling on a daily basis.

 

 

 

* Just to add. I think the sexualisation of minors in Video games or any other media is disgusting.

Objectification of women and sexualisation of minors are 2 completely different topics.

We're getting Yakuza fans grouped in with potential pedophiles here.

Edited January 27 by Totoro

[Jamie John]

26 minutes ago, Totoro said:

Meanwhile on RLLMJP someone has just posted - How do you feel about the glorification of violence and the fascination of war in Western games?

Camel toe close up on kicking girl on one side / Highly detailed slow motion shot of bullet going through human head on other. Both bad things to be controlling on a daily basis.

 

The glorification of violence and war isn't limited to Western games, though, in the same way that problematic presentations of women and children are limited (or more limited, if that makes sense) to Eastern games, so I don't think that comparison works. I agree that Western games are, typically, more violent than Eastern ones, but you only need to look at the likes of Metal Gear, Resident Evil or even Ninja Gaiden to find evidence of Japanese games that put violence front and centre.

 

And, again, there's this sort of whataboutery defence that seems determined not to want to contest the issue.

[therearerules]

25 minutes ago, Totoro said:

Meanwhile on RLLMJP someone has just posted - How do you feel about the glorification of violence and the fascination of war in Western games?

Camel toe close up on kicking girl on one side / Highly detailed slow motion shot of bullet going through human head on other. Both bad things to be controlling on a daily basis.

If this concerns you start your own thread about it, rather than 'whatabout' in here.

[Rex Grossman]

59 minutes ago, cassidy said:

No just pointing out the idiocy of your comparison tbh. 

 

I'm positive I'm not an incel.  So have nothing to defend.  

 

What was my comparison?

 

[cassidy]

10 hours ago, Rex Grossman said:

You’ll never go broke pandering to the incel market. 

I'm not playing this game.  You know what you typed. 

 

Carry on trolling Rex.  I got a dog to grieve over and work to do. 

[JamesC]

It is quite interesting how we are more desensitised to violence than we are sexual content in western society.

I don't think you can equate game violence with the sexualisation of children in games though. Apart from anything else, most violent games have higher age ratings - for example, the lastest CoD has an 18 rating but the latest Fire Emblem has a 12 rating.

[Darwock]

2 hours ago, thesnwmn said:

I think that's the key here. Its about tackling our consumption of it and the way we discuss it (or don't) in games media.

 

If that results in these studios changing their practices then fantastic. If it doesn't then fine, they can enjoy their considerably smaller addressable market.

I’m fairly certain if you wiped out otaku culture from the country the Japanese economy would collapse entirely. They can however, get by just fine without selling their games to foreigners.

 

Not saying I disagree but the result of such an ultimatum would not be in our favour.

[ulala]

1 hour ago, Totoro said:

Meanwhile on RLLMJP someone has just posted - How do you feel about the glorification of violence and the fascination of war in Western games?

Camel toe close up on kicking girl on one side / Highly detailed slow motion shot of bullet going through human head on other. Both bad things to be controlling on a daily basis.

you are whatabouting sexual objectification of children?

 

fucking hell 

[Rex Grossman]

27 minutes ago, cassidy said:

I'm not playing this game.  You know what you typed. 

 

Carry on trolling Rex.  I got a dog to grieve over and work to do. 

 

I absolutely wasn't trolling at any time unless trolling means saying that incels will love games that depict women as child-like idiotic sex objects. 

 

I said that you don't go broke appealing to incels, riffing off the common cliche no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

 

It wasn't a dig at you. I have absolutely no idea why you took it as such a personal slight that you wanted to inform me you had indeed had sex to produce a child. I guarantee no one in this thread thought my remark was anything to do with you or anything you had said. Your reaction was bizarre. 

 

If you don't think many of these games are made in such a way as to appeal to a creepy male demographic who have little idea what real women actually look like or think about then we are simply on opposite sides of this debate. Nothing more.

 

I'm very sorry to hear about your dog. That's tough to go through.

[thesnwmn]

4 minutes ago, Darwock said:

I’m fairly certain if you wiped out otaku culture from the country the Japanese economy would collapse entirely. They can however, get by just fine without selling their games to foreigners.

 

Not saying I disagree but the result of such an ultimatum would not be in our favour.

 

Why would that not be in our favour? Games with that content aren't here. That's a win to me.

 

While I'm sure they can keep making them and will be fine I also wonder what shareholders feel. If the major publisher's games aren't getting the same audience. Are they happy with a reduced in profit/revenue?

[Darwock]

I was making the assumption that we as a community have some appreciation for Japanese game development. Although there are greater and lesser degrees of objectionable content, this stuff stinks up a lot of it. I bet if you go through our top 100 games of all time vote results there would be a lot of highly regarded games that wouldn’t make it through the censor’s cut.