How do you feel about the objectification of women and the sexualisation of minors in East Asian games?

[Jamie John]

There was some chat in this week's episode of TCGS where the hosts were talking about the portrayal of certain female characters in the new Fire Emblem game. Now, I'll say straight away that I haven't played it myself, but I've no reason to disbelieve the opinions of those fine and honest hosts of The Computer Game Show, especially seeing as the portrayal of certain female characters in Fire Emblem: Three Houses (the last FE game, prior to this new one) was part of the reason why I abandoned it.

 

Apparently, in cutscenes in the new FE game (Fire Emblem: Engage) the camera focuses on the female characters' bodies in a very male gazey sort of way (including a character who is supposed to be the player's own mother), and there are several female characters (including some who are underage, according to the game's lore) who make suggestive remarks, dress titillatingly and are presented as potential targets for the player character to 'romance'. And this stuff is still in the game in spite of the changes that have been made to it in order to make it more palatable to a Western audience, so I don't think its unreasonable to infer that some of this stuff is even more problematic in the Japanese version of the game.

 

Anyway, this conversation got me thinking about the way that women and minors (or, y'know, children) are portrayed in some (not all) East Asian* games more generally. It's my perception that East Asian games get more of a free pass when it comes to this sort of thing compared with Western ones - you only need to look at the Persona series, Final Fantasy series 

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, Yakuza series

 

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or Street Fighter series

 

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to get an idea of what I'm referring to. Could you imagine Aloy, Ellie or Alyx being portrayed in this way? And could you imagine the amount of flak that the developers of these games would get if they were?

 

It seems to me that, too often, these sorts of portrayals are conveniently euphemised as being 'anime' and then, if not tolerated by Western audiences, at least not scrutinised to anywhere near the same extent as portrayals of women in Western games. (In fact, I've read some arguments which suggest that trying to make East Asian games less 'anime' is tantamount to a Western 'whitewashing' of East Asian cultural artefacts, which seems pretty weak to me; it's not whitewashing to suggest that portrayals of women and children should be less sexualised.)

 

To be clear, I'm not naïve enough to suggest that every modern Western-developed game is a paragon of progressive politics when it comes to its representation of women, but I do think that Western-developed games have come a long way in the last ten years, say, especially when it comes to bigger-budget games. I find it embarrassing, therefore, that the new Fire Emblem title, a big-budget, Nintendo published, Switch exclusive game that currently features prominently on Nintendo.com's front page, still includes these sorts of portrayals in 2023. It's also something that actively puts me off from playing these sorts of games; I was all up for buying FE: Engage this month after reading lots of reviews which spoke about how good the combat system is and how satisfying the whole gameplay experience feels, but one mention from a gaming outlet I trust is enough to make me think again.

 

What's your opinion on this sort of thing? Am I wrong to think that these portrayals are deemed more acceptable in Eastern games than Western ones? Is it something that we, as players, and the gaming press should challenge more? Have you ever boycotted or abandoned a game because of how it portrays women or children? Are East Asian games getting better? Am I just too woke for my own good?

 

*I use this term instead of just saying 'Japanese' because I want to include other games, like Genshin Impact, developed by a Chinese studio.

[SeanR]

The formatting of the thread title has broken phone browsing

[Thor]

I've had a problem with it, and games like it, for a long long time now. It's fucking embarrassing. 

[cassidy]

Japanese games have an issue with their depiction of women. 

 

More news at 11.   

[thesnwmn]

Funny. I listened to that episode of TCGS this morning, only really my third episode of it ever after starting at the 2022 GOTY draft and show.

 

And my felt a bit sick listening to the FE chat with when they raised this. Honestly, it disgusts me that games have this stuff in them in this day and age. I didn't enjoy their take at all. Yes, they said it was a bit wrong. But here we are ploughing 10s of hours into it an turning a blind eye. I've felt similar about Back Page at times where I think they're too quick to say they're not interested in discussing the politics of games content and I'm not sure that's good enough for me.

 

So honestly, it saddens me how outlets and gamers treat it. They mention it, but more so that those who it bothers can avoid it and those who enjoy it or don't mind it can get their fill.

 

I'd like to see, at least western outlets start to take a much dimmer view or it and swerve coverage of the most egregious offenders. I think exposure to this stuff is fundamentally detrimental to the development of people's world view and their treatment of others.

 

But then I know that won't happen. Because in the end I think the same about violence on videogames. I think there that western studios have been allowed to ramp game violence up without any consideration and very very poor enforcement of age ratings.

 

[Opinionated Ham Scarecrow]

Yeah, the older I get, the more creepy it seems tbh. There is a cultural element to it, and it's odd that the games mentioned in the op seem to get a free pass, but that doesn't really make it okay 

[cassidy]

I should add it's not just an Asian issue this tbh is it.  Western games aren't doing too great either tbh. 

 

I give the Yakuza games a pass because they also represents us males quite ridiculously tbh.  So there is some sort of balance there in my head. 

 

But a lot of Japanese anime and Manga has this problem imo as well It's why I managed the first episode of Demon slayer only. 

 

Here's this strong female character.  She's a monster and must be gagged. 

 

One piece has the most ridiculous female character designs as well. 

 

 

[JamesC]

Embarrassing is the word. I abandoned Xenoblade Chronicles X because of a sexualised while simultaneously infantilised female character. I just couldn't play it and maintain my self respect. 

[Jamie John]

25 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

And my felt a bit sick listening to the FE chat with when they raised this. Honestly, it disgusts me that games have this stuff in them in this day and age. I didn't enjoy their take at all. Yes, they said it was a bit wrong. But here we are ploughing 10s of hours into it an turning a blind eye. I've felt similar about Back Page at times where I think they're too quick to say they're not interested in discussing the politics of games

 

In their defence, I will say that TCGS were the first gaming outlet to mention it that I was aware of; if you look at reviews of the game from major outlets (Eurogamer, IGN, GameSpot) there's little to no reference of it apart from a passing allusion to 'JRPG tropes'.

 

25 minutes ago, thesnwmn said:

Because in the end I think the same about violence on videogames. I think there that western studios have been allowed to ramp game violence up without any consideration and very very poor enforcement of age ratings.

 

Would you say that that ramping up of violence is limited to just Western games, though?

[Nick R]

20 minutes ago, Jamie John said:

(In fact, I've read some arguments which suggest that trying to make East Asian games less 'anime' is tantamount to a Western 'whitewashing' of East Asian cultural artefacts, which seems pretty weak to me; it's not whitewashing to suggest that portrayals of women and children should be less sexualised.)

 

To me, that sounds suspiciously like that thing the online alt-right sometimes does, where they disguise their aims by using the language of progressive social justice.

 

In this case, let's imagine two online posts from people who want to see more male gazey fanservice from Japanese games. The first one has a Pepe avatar and says: "Based Japanese developers, not giving in to the woke western Tumblr SJW cucks" - their culture war aims are obvious! Whereas the second one says: "Forcing Japanese developers to adopt our cultural standards is just another form of western colonial imperialism" - that makes it a bit less immediately obvious whether they're arguing in good faith.

[thesnwmn]

7 minutes ago, Jamie John said:

 

In their defence, I will say that TCGS were the first gaming outlet to mention it that I was aware of; if you look at reviews of the game from major outlets (Eurogamer, IGN, GameSpot) there's little to no reference of it apart from a passing allusion to 'JRPG tropes'.

 

 

Would you say that that ramping up of violence is limited to just Western games, though?

 

Oh not at all. Although I think the style of western violence in games can be more disturbing (to me) because I think western games tend towards realism more often than not when including guns and warfare.

[thesnwmn]

I also wouldn't say it's the job of "the west" to say that other regions shouldn't make games like this. But that the consumer's and promoters in the cultures where it isn't acceptable should turn away from it.

 

If (and it's a massive if) western audiences didn't buy games with overly sexualised and creepily young women in them I think many of those games are changing pretty sharpish or they'll see massive falls in sales and unhappy shareholders.

 

Although maybe the Chinese market corrects that.

[El Spatula]

Original Fire Emblem Engage apparently has grooming of an 11 year old in it that was retranslated for the international release. Even creepier than they usually are. Its Nintendo though so it gets a pass for some reason 

[Jamie John]

5 minutes ago, Nick R said:

 

To me, that sounds suspiciously like that thing the online alt-right sometimes does, where they disguise their aims by using the language of progressive social justice.

 

In this case, let's imagine two online posts from people who want to see more male gazey fanservice from Japanese games. The first one has a Pepe avatar and says: "Based Japanese developers, not giving in to the woke western Tumblr SJW cucks" - their culture war aims are obvious! Whereas the second one says: "Forcing Japanese developers to adopt our cultural standards is just another form of western colonial imperialism" - that makes it a bit less immediately obvious whether they're arguing in good faith.

 

Indeed! It's an interesting point, though: this portrayal of women and minors seems so closely bound up with anime culture that it seems too simplistic to just say to Japanese developers that they can't include it in their anime-influenced games if they're going to be publishing them in the West.

[Junker]

I think it’s creepy so I don’t / won’t buy them no matter how good they are.

[Darwock]

Water is wet.

 

A few years ago now my wife had a meeting with Nippon-Ichi for some cross promotion her company was doing. She said when she walked into the place it was like wall sized pictures of dodgy female characters everywhere. She asked the people in the meeting “Why do all your characters either have giant boobs, or no boobs?” and they told her “It’s what our customers want.”

 

The Japanese game developers put stuff like this into their games because that’s what the Japanese market demands. It’s just deeply ingrained in the culture. The only way they are going to achieve some kind of harmony with western social values is by not releasing their stuff overseas at all. I gather that’s what happened with the DOA volleyball series? (not sure on that).

 

Japan has no part in the culture wars but it’s unfortunate that the media produced by the country falls quite distinctly into one particular camp’s preferences.

 

(I’m talking mostly about the objectification of women here, the paedophilia aspect is a different matter entirely)

[Qazimod]

9 hours ago, thesnwmn said:

And my felt a bit sick listening to the FE chat with when they raised this. Honestly, it disgusts me that games have this stuff in them in this day and age. I didn't enjoy their take at all. Yes, they said it was a bit wrong. But here we are ploughing 10s of hours into it an turning a blind eye.

 

I think that's kind of the thing - people play FE and Persona etc because they're top-tier examples of their genres - but if you want to try them there's this unspoken social contract in place where you have to deal with *gestures* all of this iffy characterisation in the games. And I'd like to believe that this forum doesn't necessarily play FE/Persona/Yakuza for that objectification - so the games can surely succeed without it? I've talked before about how the whole Social Link/Confidant system in Persona (effectively "dating game-lite" scenes where your dialogue choices nurture a bond with an ally and unlock experience boosts when creating personas)  could be easily reworked so that the protagonist isn't the centre of attention for the guys and girls. Just let the player experience scenes of character development through the lens of that ally - and then there will be a greater sense of growth, without that growth being dependent on the protagonist. Meanwhile most of the cutscenes that are overly sexualised could probably be rewritten without kneecapping any sort of plot or character development.

 

I don't know about boycotts but I did play Killer Is Dead and engaged in the "Gigolo Mode" thing once - at the start, just to know. And then I ignored it for the rest of the game. And I suppose I'm reticent to go anywhere near DOA because of the fear that it will force its Kay's catalogue onto me at every opportunity. But I'd agree that western games aren't exactly innocent either. Going full harem in Mass Effect? "Dating" in the GTAs? Fable's crude approach to relationships? Anything David Cage touches?

 

The only "challenge" we really have would probably come from ESRB, PEGI, et al. So maybe further/harsher classification is needed. Your developer doesn't like their game being branded with the creepy sexualisation logo? Maybe there should be less creepy sexualisation in their games.  

[SF-02]

Many games were creepy in 2000. How it's like it in 2023 is incredible.

 

Been embaressed about the state of them many for a long, long time. Tomb raider was weird back in the late 90s. Always felt it.

[Thor]

I remember watching a trailer, from the very last E3 perhaps, where the rendered character was a young woman wearing super tight leggings, and she did a kick move  with a slo-mo close up of her crotch that clearly showed camel toe. It was just pathetic. 

[Darwock]

Street Fighter 6 probably.

[Timmo]

I remember playing Bayonetta and being terrified my girlfriend would walk in during one of its cringier moments, ie. about 30% of the game. 

[womblingfree]

It’s not just games, it manifests in all aspects of media. In Japan anyway.

[Isaac]

34 minutes ago, Qazimod said:

 

I think that's kind of the thing - people play FE and Persona etc because they're top-tier examples of their genres - but if you want to try them there's this unspoken social contract in place where you have to deal with *gestures* all of this iffy characterisation in the games. And I'd like to believe that this forum doesn't necessarily play FE/Persona/Yakuza for that objectification - so the games can surely succeed without it? I've talked before about how the whole Social Link/Confidant system in Persona (effectively "dating game-lite" scenes where your dialogue choices nurture a bond with a character and unlock experience boosts when creating personas)  could be easily reworked so that the player character isn't the centre of attention for the guys and girls. Just let the player experience scenes of character development through the lens of that Social Link/Confidant - and then there will be a greater sense of growth, without that growth being dependent on the protagonist. Meanwhile most of the cutscenes that are overly sexualised could probably be rewritten without kneecapping any sort of plot or character development.

 

Yakuza is at least thematically appropriate, given that the entire series is (mostly) set in the red light district of various cities, and you're working with and for organised crime.

 

It also is pretty tongue-in-cheek, hammy as fuck, and does a better-than-average job of objectifying the male characters as much as the female ones.

 

Even saying that though, quite a few of the games have at least one dodgy minigame. The women in bikinis dressed as various insects fighting in a secret underground gambling league, for example. 

 

However it definitely tries to have its cake and eat it too - it could take the piss out of that whole scene and be hammy as fuck without also pandering to it at the same time.

[Rex Grossman]

You’ll never go broke pandering to the incel market. 

[cassidy]

11 minutes ago, Rex Grossman said:

You’ll never go broke pandering to the incel

market. 

Wait playing and enjoying Yakuza makes me an incel?  I better tell my 26 yr old son he's a figment of my imagination. 

[Hitcher]

Hope they don't watch anime.

[therearerules]

It's embarrassing and awful, especially in otherwise fantastic visual novels. There's a tendency to just go 'Oh Japan' and try to ignore it, but I do wish media took a stronger stance against it.

[Dig Dug]

Fire Emblem has been a trend chaser ever since Awakening’s resounding success made the studio put their efforts into pandering to the obsessive fan market (aka otaku).

 

You don’t even have to be a huge fan of the series to see how different it was before Awakening. Fire Emblem has changed considerably in the past 30 years. The Kaga-era saw each game play their medieval war fantasy inspirations straight with 1995’s Genealogy of the Holy War being compared by many to a George R.R. Martin epic. The departure of series creator Kaga saw the post-Kaga era simplify the series down into hero’s journey stories focusing on teenage protagonists. Come the 2010s the series was on its knees due to poor sales so they gambled on a new direction which the series has mostly been stuck on since.

 

If Kaga’s games are comparable to fantasy novels like A Song of Ice and Fire, and post-Kaga comparable to Star Wars, then post-awakening Fire Emblem is comparable to anime like Sword Art Online and Fate. The Fate influence is especially strong in Engage, it even has a recruitable Femboy archetype character to match Fate’s infamous Astolfo character. The opening movie that plays when you boot up Engage mimics the kind of opening you’d see in most modern anime.

 

Three Houses was in some respects a schizophrenic game. It tried to hark back to the Kaga-era with the setting, plot and protagonists but it also still wanted to appeal to the obsessive fans with the cast of side characters, saunas, tea parties and ability to marry other units. The character designs are also included in this. As a series Fire Emblem has mostly been solid at subverting female armour tropes while also recently having some hilariously bad examples of it. 

 

The series reminds me of being a pro wrestling fan in many respects, it has highs that will make you a fan for life while also subjecting you to many lows that will make you too embarrassed to ever share it with another human being.

 

Fire Emblem as it is today is a product of Japanese trends, it is almost entirely detached from the designer who wanted to tell his own fantasy war stories through the medium of games. It would take a big shift in the entire Japanese fandom market for Fire Emblem to move away from what it has become, the game design (each unit is a unique character who can die forever and therefore matters) is just too well suited to otaku, idol and gatcha gaming culture.

[Broker]

As someone who engaged with a lot of anime and manga, you do just kinda stop seeing this stuff. Female costumes are ridiculous and that’s just how it is. I would also say though, that the flip side of that is rarely mentioned, which is that a society that is more open about aspects of sexuality also creates stories that western media never would. Some of the most interesting and mature takes on sex and relationships I’ve ever seen came from Japanese media, and there’s ideas there that are explored that America’s weird puritanical attitudes to sex would never cover because they’re too busy covering up nipples so there’s more time to present gun violence as fun.

 

None of that excuses the terrible attitudes to women in Japanese media, but I do think the idea that western media is any better is ridiculous. Our society routinely sexualises school girls and our entire music industry is a repulsive parade of semi naked teenage girls. Twitch and Instagram are packed full of young women in bikinis and the porn industry is pretty much wall to wall sexual violence. There’s no country that is producing media with health attitudes to young women or sex. 

[Isaac]

3 hours ago, Broker said:

 

None of that excuses the terrible attitudes to women in Japanese media, but I do think the idea that western media is any better is ridiculous. Our society routinely sexualises school girls and our entire music industry is a repulsive parade of semi naked teenage girls. Twitch and Instagram are packed full of young women in bikinis and the porn industry is pretty much wall to wall sexual violence. There’s no country that is producing media with health attitudes to young women or sex. 

 

Western media is definitely significantly better than Japanese media when it comes to the sexualisation of children.

 

The west does not routinely and openly create media that essentially romaticises grooming and child sexual relationships with adults like they do in Japan.