World Cup Qatar 2022 - Desert Strike

[ChewMagma]

9 minutes ago, The Fox said:

‘English people should actually express more exceptionalism’ is certainly a take.

 

Yeah I mean we have just spent 4+ years getting to a point where we can talk more soberly, sensibly and realistically about England's footballing prospects and people want to roll that back? Win or lose, watching England now is a 1000 times more enjoyable and sane than it was even 8 or 10 years ago.

 

Our current midfield is more than good enough to win a tournament.

[ChewMagma]

Also I'm not sure the midfield is what we need to worry about over the next few years, it is going to be refreshing the back 4, particularly the centre backs, and finding a new no 9.

[Timmo]

4 minutes ago, ChewMagma said:

Also I'm not sure the midfield is what we need to worry about over the next few years, it is going to be refreshing the back 4, particularly the centre backs, and finding a new no 9.

I thought both centre backs were and have been superb, and both have 2 tournaments in them at least. Maguire needs to find a new club, though. 
 

Kane you’d hope has plenty left seeing as pace isn’t part of his game.

[Loik V credern]

7 minutes ago, The Fox said:

‘English people should actually express more exceptionalism’ is certainly a take.

 

Yeah, if you're a snide keen find one way to misinterpret what I'm obviously not saying. 

 

The hyping up of England by the media based on players being some of the best in the world with a definite premier league bias is exceptionalism, that comes from an insecurity. My entire point, as you know isn't coming from that angle, I don't think England have any right to win anything. I want England to impose themselves more on games not as a one off but as something to aim for, as a means to reach another level where winning a tournament isn't expected but there's a better chance than just trying to sneak through with easy draws. The fine margins still remain in knockout football, I know. 

 

I just don't have this void in my soul where England winning a final means anything, but England finally imposing themselves on games maximising their talent and seeing some kind of collective performance peak..that's more meaningful to me. And there has been improvement. A comfortable Senegal win but..then an awful year before this tournament of wretched displays.

 

I don't think it's beyond England just because as Gary Neville always says we've never been able to do it. I thought the whole point of the re evaluation of the academy setup and way of training was to produce more players who are more comfortable on the ball, the player primed in end to end quick turnover of possession premier league football cannot excel in the slower paced international football against the toughest opposition. 

 

We see examples over and over of managers emboldening players, playing wonderful dynamic football with the exact same players who previously never combined as a team to play anything like they then do. It's not exceptionalism to demand more from players, to suppose your mid table club can perhaps play a bit and not just accept turning up to one of the big teams and being completely outplayed.

 

The whole for and against argument around Southgate has got nothing to do with exceptionalism, but about maximising the talent and being I dunno more bold and ambitious rather than reactive. 

[alex3d]

3 minutes ago, Timmo said:

I thought both centre backs were and have been superb, and both have 2 

 

Absolutely. Let's not forget yesterday's 1-0 was a once-every-50-attempts goal. And the precision of the cross leading to the second goal was just exceptional.

[JamesTW]

2 hours ago, Eighthours said:

#SouthgateOut is trending on Twitter, because of course it is. 🙄

Im not really arsed about England so dont care what happens but its not that mad a shout! England got smacked 4-0 by Hungary and relegated didnt they? Senegal had big players missing like France did last night.  Germany in 2021 I suspect wouldnt of happened in a foreign stadium.  Hes probably done alright but hes not some fantastic brilliant manager!

[The Fox]

11 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

Yeah, if you're a snide keen find one way to misinterpret what I'm obviously not saying. 

 

The hyping up of England by the media based on players being some of the best in the world with a definite premier league bias is exceptionalism, that comes from an insecurity. My entire point, as you know isn't coming from that angle, I don't think England have any right to win anything. I want England to impose themselves more on games not as a one off but as something to aim for, as a means to reach another level where winning a tournament isn't expected but there's a better chance than just trying to sneak through with easy draws. The fine margins still remain in knockout football, I know. 

 

I just don't have this void in my soul where England winning a final means anything, but England finally imposing themselves on games maximising their talent and seeing some kind of collective performance peak..that's more meaningful to me. And there has been improvement. A comfortable Senegal win but..then an awful year before this tournament of wretched displays.

 

I don't think it's beyond England just because as Gary Neville always says we've never been able to do it. I thought the whole point of the re evaluation of the academy setup and way of training was to produce more players who are more comfortable on the ball, the player primed in end to end quick turnover of possession premier league football cannot excel in the slower paced international football against the toughest opposition. 

 

We see examples over and over of managers emboldening players, playing wonderful dynamic football with the exact same players who previously never combined as a team to play anything like they then do. It's not exceptionalism to demand more from players, to suppose your mid table club can perhaps play a bit and not just accept turning up to one of the big teams and being completely outplayed.

 

The whole for and against argument around Southgate has got nothing to do with exceptionalism, but about maximising the talent and being I dunno more bold and ambitious rather than reactive. 

[Loik V credern]

31 minutes ago, ChewMagma said:

Yeah I mean we have just spent 4+ years getting to a point where we can talk more soberly, sensibly and realistically about England's footballing prospects and people want to roll that back? Win or lose, watching England now is a 1000 times more enjoyable and sane than it was even 8 or 10 years ago.

 

Our current midfield is more than good enough to win a tournament.

 

Wanting more ball playing midfielders to emerge is not 'wanting to roll back' is it? Henderson will be 34 by Euro 2024, is injury prone and is mostly played for his selflessness and leadership, not ball retention (some off passes last night). No guarantee he'll be there. Philips I'm not convinced has the mobility really, like the positions Henderson was picking up in this tournament up field in support I'm not sure he'll do. I think Rice, Henderson, Bellingham was finally a midfield that had balance, I think it's good enough if Bellingham doesn't go missing but it's about the future. 

 

Bellingham will only improve but I don't see how anyone is happy with the midfield when he's just emerged as a key player. No one thinks that much of Ward Prowse, Gallagher everyone was surprised he was brought along. I think someone like Mousa Dembele would be pivotal, that strength, ability to never lose the ball, surge up field. There's so much of those attributes in Loftus-Cheek but he's not played for England for 4 years and I didn't realise was already 26..and consistency wise probably doesn't have it. 

 

Wanting more is not exceptionalism or thinking England didn't do well. People are absolutely forgetting what the aims were ten years ago when all these changes occurred and targets were set. Like..the Euro final came early, the aim was always to be be able to go far in this tournament. Again, England did well, were the better side against France, but still a France missing three key players and barely tried, 2 penalties for England and still couldn't take it to extra time. 

[Loik V credern]

11 minutes ago, The Fox said:

 

I couldn't think of a pithy snide remark, I'm better than that unfortunately. 

[ChewMagma]

2 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

Wanting more ball playing midfielders to emerge is not 'wanting to roll back' is it? Henderson will be 34 by Euro 2024, is injury prone and is mostly played for his selflessness and leadership, not ball retention (some off passes last night). No guarantee he'll be there. Philips I'm not convinced has the mobility really, like the positions Henderson was picking up in this tournament up field in support I'm not sure he'll do. I think Rice, Henderson, Bellingham was finally a midfield that had balance, I think it's good enough if Bellingham doesn't go missing but it's about the future. 

 

Bellingham will only improve but I don't see how anyone is happy with the midfield when he's just emerged as a key player. No one thinks that much of Ward Prowse, Gallagher everyone was surprised he was brought along. I think someone like Mousa Dembele would be pivotal, that strength, ability to never lose the ball, surge up field. There's so much of those attributes in Loftus-Cheek but he's not played for England for 4 years and I didn't realise was already 26..and consistency wise probably doesn't have it. 

 

Wanting more is not exceptionalism or thinking England didn't do well. People are absolutely forgetting what the aims were ten years ago when all these changes occurred and targets were set. Like..the Euro final came early, the aim was always to be be able to go far in this tournament. Again, England did well, were the better side against France, but still a France missing three key players and barely tried, 2 penalties for England and still couldn't take it to extra time. 

 

France "barely tried"? Come on.

 

What I'm talking about rolling back on is this notion that there is always someone at fault, there is always a solution to every footballing problem and this idea that we ought to be winning this game or that game.

 

We played exceptionally well against the World Champions. We looked the better side. We shut Mbappe down. We could have created a bit more. I wasn't sure why Southgate replaced Saka with Sterling but otherwise there are no faults to find. It is just football, it is how it goes a lot of the time. I actually support a midtable club so I can understand and accept this.

 

I would take a well-played, non-hysterical, exit from a WC quarter final than all the fucking hysteria and nonsense that I had to grow up with that made it entirely unbearable.

 

I just want to feel proud of the team that represents me and I can say I am and I am happy.

[Timmo]

13 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

I couldn't think of a pithy snide remark, I'm better than that unfortunately. 

If no one can understand what point you’re trying to make then it’s a flaw on your side.

[Loik V credern]

3 minutes ago, Timmo said:

If no one can understand what point you’re trying to make then it’s a flaw on your side.

 

The Fox understood perfectly. I don't think I can be more clear really. What's confusing about my point?

[Ry]

If England knew how to be decent over 90 mins they might have had a chance to win this World Cup.

 

Only in the first game they were decent over 90. 

 

Every game after that they were shit for the first 45. 

 

 

 

 

Too perfect. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ryodi]

34 minutes ago, JamesTW said:

Im not really arsed about England so dont care what happens but its not that mad a shout! England got smacked 4-0 by Hungary and relegated didnt they? Senegal had big players missing like France did last night.  Germany in 2021 I suspect wouldnt of happened in a foreign stadium.  Hes probably done alright but hes not some fantastic brilliant manager!

 

This is always a frustrating summary. Only five players from the Hungary game played against France.  The teams England beat are never good enough for it to mean anything. Senegal are AFCON champions but because Mane was missing beating them doesn't mean anything. Playing well against France is meaningless because they were missing Pogba and Kante yet they'd cruised through the games when they played their first eleven. Beating Germany was meaningless because it was at Wembley. England went toe to toe against the best team in the tournament and were unlucky to lose. 

[Timmo]

5 minutes ago, Ry said:

If England knew how to be decent over 90 mins they might have had a chance to win this World Cup.

 

Only in the first game they were decent over 90. 

 

Every game after that they were shit for the first 45. 

 

 

 

 

 

They were far from shit in yesterday’s first half, though. With a competent referee they most likely either go in 0-0 or winning.

[bear]

37 minutes ago, JamesTW said:

Im not really arsed about England so dont care what happens but its not that mad a shout! England got smacked 4-0 by Hungary and relegated didnt they? Senegal had big players missing like France did last night.  Germany in 2021 I suspect wouldnt of happened in a foreign stadium.  Hes probably done alright but hes not some fantastic brilliant manager!

I feel there needs to be one of two conditions met for #Southgateout to be justified.

 

1. Its blindingly obvious that his tenure has ran out of steam and the team are going backwards like what happened to Eddie Jones and the English rugby team recently.

 

2. There has to be a clear and obvious #theirnamein candidate who represents an immediate upgrade.  

 

I don't think either conditions been met yet.

I don't believe Southgate is some amazing manager but I certainly wouldn't be looking at ditching him unless I had a deal in place to get someone excellent to take the job.  

[Timmo]

1 minute ago, bear said:

I feel there needs to be one of two conditions met for #Southgateout to be justified.

 

1. Its blindingly obvious that his tenure has ran out of steam and the team are going backwards like what happened to Eddie Jones and the English rugby team recently.

 

2. There has to be a clear and obvious #theirnamein candidate who represents an immediate upgrade.  

 

I don't think either conditions been met yet.

I don't believe Southgate is some amazing manager but I certainly wouldn't be looking at ditching him unless I had a deal in place to get someone excellent to take the job.  

Pochettino is available, keen and probably an upgrade but I’m 100% with you on point 1. 

[Gabe]

5 minutes ago, ryodi said:

 

This is always a frustrating summary. Only five players from the Hungary game played against France.  The teams England beat are never good enough for it to mean anything. Senegal are AFCON champions but because Mane was missing beating them doesn't mean anything. Playing well against France is meaningless because they were missing Pogba and Kante yet they'd cruised through the games when they played their first eleven. Beating Germany was meaningless because it was at Wembley. England went toe to toe against the best team in the tournament and were unlucky to lose. 

Whilst I don't agree with @JamesTW's post, I also don't think beating Senegal - with or without Mane - would really be all that much of an achievement. They may well be AFCON winners, but the relative strength of the top teams in African football is still some way below the equivalent in Europe or South America (although I can't wait for the day when an African team does win the World Cup and it truly becomes a tournament that a nation from any continent can win). It was a game England were and should expect to win, and they did.

 

As for last night, I think we should all be very proud of the way England contested the game and were the better side for large parts of it. Yes, France were ultimately a bit more clinical when it mattered, but had Kane stuck away that second penalty I could see them going on to win it - and for once that isn't some fantasy, it was a genuine belief based on what was happening on the pitch.

 

The 'Southgate out' stuff is just silly, really. If he decides he's had enough, then that's fine. But I can't believe there is any scenario in which the FA could make a rational to justify sacking him. I am not his greatest fan by any stretch, but he has transformed the general mood and cohesiveness of this England squad during his tenure and whilst he isn't a master tactician, his man-management and improvement of young players is evident, and that goes a long way.

[Loik V credern]

45 minutes ago, ChewMagma said:

France "barely tried"? Come on.

 

Barely tried in attack, yeah. Apart from the fantastic shot in the first half there were a few average crosses that weren't dangerous, Mbappe skied it in the box, seemed to me they were more focused on fouling England players. Like anyone watching the game not familiar with any of the players would think Saka was regarded as a top ten player in the world, more dangerous than any other attacker on the pitch, such was the joy he was getting and how relentlessly he was being targeted, yet he was sharing the pitch with Dembele, Griezmann and Mbappe. I never complain about fouls or referee decisions but it was doing my head in how often they were disrupting play. 

 

Their goal wasn't even a chance. Then second half starts and England are on top, only once Kane scores do I think they actually tried in an attacking sense yeah and applied pressure. Like showed the urgency that fits a world cup quarter final. I'm not naive, I get not committing and leaving yourself exposed, pacing yourself. 

 

I'll see what Julian Loriens thinks (who most dislike, sure), he was critical of England in the Euros for that reason, as were many journalists by the way, his perspective not being English was that there was more to be gained from the talent, so I assume he thinks the same of France, I think he tends to think that. Say there was no first half goal, I think a lot of French fans would have thought they could have committed more. That's not to ignore England preventing them, as always comes up ('you realise the other team is trying to stop them right? You can't just do what you want' etc)

 

45 minutes ago, ChewMagma said:

What I'm talking about rolling back on is this notion that there is always someone at fault, there is always a solution to every footballing problem and this idea that we ought to be winning this game or that game.

 

We played exceptionally well against the World Champions. We looked the better side. We shut Mbappe down. We could have created a bit more. I wasn't sure why Southgate replaced Saka with Sterling but otherwise there are no faults to find. It is just football, it is how it goes a lot of the time. I actually support a midtable club so I can understand and accept this.

 

I would take a well-played, non-hysterical, exit from a WC quarter final than all the fucking hysteria and nonsense that I had to grow up with that made it entirely unbearable.

 

I just want to feel proud of the team that represents me and I can say I am and I am happy.

 

Well I agree with all this. They're the most likeable England squad I've known in my life personally. But with the margins this fine everyone in the England setup will be looking at every area to see if there are improvements that can be made.

[Gabe]

I was driving home last night and made the mistake of (briefly) listening to a bit of 606 and, obviously, people are idiots. One chap was trying to say that he would've taken Kane off for James Maddison in the second half, because 'Maddison steps up for Leicester'  The other thing he said, which I think did have some merit (and is a criticism that has been made before in this England side) was that Kane was hardly ever in the box because he was dropping deep all the time. He stopped doing that for a bit (during the Euros?) but was back at it again, perhaps as a function of the midfield struggling to create good chances? (Again, I didn't see the second half, but they didn't create a great deal in the first half).

 

One guy was clearly drunk and just started making odd noises instead of words and a lady was almost apoplectic about how the England team were basically cowards, how they played with less passion that the Lionesses, how they should be ashamed. I turned off during her rant.

[Fry Crayola]

38 minutes ago, bear said:

#theirnamein

 

This took me a fucking age to read.

 

"The Irna Mein? What the hell's that?"

[ChewMagma]

I still can't parse it. Try #insertnamehere next time I reckon.

[alex3d]

While I do agree that France weren't really at 100% capacity, the notion that only a WC win counts as a success because there's been a transformation is pretty weird. When Germany transformed itself after their 2000/2002/2004 tournaments it took them 10 years to win the WC and they haven't won anything since. It's not as automatic as some seem to think it is.

[Gabe]

10 minutes ago, alex3d said:

While I do agree that France weren't really at 100% capacity, the notion that only a WC win counts as a success because there's been a transformation is pretty weird. When Germany transformed itself after their 2000/2002/2004 tournaments it took them 10 years to win the WC and they haven't won anything since. It's not as automatic as some seem to think it is.

I don't think anybody is saying that though? I think everyone recognises that the team has improved over the years.

[alex3d]

Might have misread Loik's reply.

[Naysonymous]

 

The Tifo stuff has been amazing this World Cup. Worth listening to if you’re still bummed out and want an alternative to hearing furious idiots shouting at Southgate for not picking enough players from whatever club they happen to support.  

[The Fox]

Hank Winter has lost the plot.

[ucci]

Never trust a man named after a hoover. Same goes for Sir James. 

[ryodi]

There’s no money to be made from everyone accepting a defeat and moving on. Riling up the people against Southgate can help sell papers and the book he has on his Twitter banner about England failing at major tournaments.

[ucci]

Some of the comments made by the bourgeois on twitter about footy make me want to remove myself from this beautiful game. Sign of the times I suppose.