Help me be better at Tactics games

[Stanley]

Another vote for Into The Breach. It’s incredibly simple to learn and yet has such depth once you get to grips with it. And there’s zero fat. It’s one of the most elegantly designed games I’ve played, nothing is superfluous and it’s all game play. 

[Captain Kelsten]

3 hours ago, Benny said:

As for the recent XCOM games: I do not recommend starting with XCOM 2 - even veterans find that game tricky to gel with. Go with Vanilla XCOM 1, as it does a good job of introducing concepts with a steady difficulty curve. Just put it on the easiest difficulty and I'd say it's a great intro to those kind of bigger games.

I’d definitely agree with this - I absolutely loved the first game but the second I didn’t get on with at all. Probably one of the biggest gaming disappointments in recent years for me. 
 

In terms of recommendations I’d also recommend 4x games such as Civilisation VI, Stellaris that kind of thing. Stellaris in particular is phenomenal. 
 

Otherwise something like the Total War games are brilliant. There’s plenty of historical based ones, but my favourite is the Warhammer ones - I’m not even a Warhammer fan but sending vampires against dwarves and seeing all the monsters ripping soldiers in half and stuff is great fun. 

[MarkN]

10 minutes ago, Paulando said:

As someone who loves the thought of turn-based strategy games but is awful at them, I found Advance Wars lovely to play and very accessible for a newcomer.
 

However, a few hours in I felt the new mechanics started to get introduced a little too quickly, and I felt overwhelmed by the possible moves to choose from. The stages took quite a while to play too, especially if you keep failing them, and I felt like I wasn’t learning anything.

 

Was quite disappointing really as I was enjoying it and felt like I’d had something of a breakthrough with the genre until then. It’s clearly a wonderful game, I just wish it progressed a little slower.

I did enjoy Advance Wars, but the longer it went on the more it felt like there were fewer solutions to any battle. There didn't feel like there was much scope to influence things IIRC, just engage it headlong and do what the designers wanted you to. I could be misremembering this, but my usual tactic of hanging back to see how things unfold, or kiting enemies around, failed miserably. You have to kill this thing, then that thing, then those things.

[bradigor]

Started ITB and loving it so far. The smaller scale playing area helps me plan a little better and sort of forces you to think creatively. 

 

Getting my arse handed to me on the second Island each time though, but and getting an understanding. 

 

I also like that I don't have to worry about story, which is my big concern with something like FE, FF, Shadowrun, Banner Saga. 

 

I do need to tell myself to take stock before each turn rather than rush in. Getting my first murder suicide by push one enemy into the right time was proper satisfying. 

[dataDave]

If I was going blind I’d play Tactics Ogre again, and I’ve already spent nearly 400 hours on it. Nothing else comes close, but then I do need to try ITB.

 

Can you emulate PSP games on the Steam Deck? Play that version if so.

[MarkN]

1 hour ago, bradigor said:

Started ITB and loving it so far. The smaller scale playing area helps me plan a little better and sort of forces you to think creatively. 

 

Getting my arse handed to me on the second Island each time though, but and getting an understanding. 

 

I also like that I don't have to worry about story, which is my big concern with something like FE, FF, Shadowrun, Banner Saga. 

 

I do need to tell myself to take stock before each turn rather than rush in. Getting my first murder suicide by push one enemy into the right time was proper satisfying. 

It really is a thing of beauty. And the different teams are so very different. You think you've got a grip on it with one, but it might mean very little for another. But the things you learn to get good with the new one can usually be put to use in some way with the previous one. Took me ages to get even halfway decent at it, but changed my thinking about game design along the way. One of the very few games I'd write a love letter to.

[bradigor]

@dataDaveit's on my list for a future play. 

 

@MarkNI beat the second Island now and failed at the second section of the final mission. Just got overwhelmed by the Vek and couldn't get in a position to stop them from spawning. 

 

Lessons learned though. 

[b00dles]

5 hours ago, bradigor said:

Thinking of playing: 

 

ITB 

Advance Wars 

Shadow Run: Hong Kong 

 

As ones to get started with. As I have all three of those in the Steam Deck anyway

 

 

 

 

Sorry to hear about the eye sight brad. Those are a good place to start, certainly. 

I 'grew up' with the gollop brothers games like xcom and terror from the deep so I learned them the hard way but there's a pleasantly clear rock/ paper/ scissors type thing with advance wars that is definitely a good place to start. As in, troops are beaten by tanks, bazooka troops can take out tanks, there are anti air guns that are... Good at air units and the first game definitely introduces each one in it's own level. 

 

Stuff like xcom has the added layer of the geoscape and your base but the in game tactics are relatively easy to get to grips with if you take a while and never split up your squad (as a general, starting off rule before someone comes in and says that high level sniper class, or the scouts with the sword can go a bit rogue ). 

 

Shadow run HK is great but for some reason I wouldn't really class it as quite the same as your tactics ogres or xcoms even though it is turn based strategy shenanigans. 

 

Most importantly in the majority of these games is to be aware of your movement range and your attack range as well as the enemies' . Again this is something that I think advance wars does very well for beginners to the genre as it doesn't get quite as annoying as missing an 85% hit when you're standing right next to an alien in xcom 🤣

 

Happy to go into more detail on any of them once you crack on though, xcom 2 for instance has some definite 'tricks' you can use which aren't immediately apparent if you go for that at any point.

[Captain Kelsten]

Anyone who has played xcom will know this pain only too well

 

[Hitcher]

I'm spending more time playing turn-based tactical games lately (Into The Breach and Mutant Year Zero currently) and have found watching a 'let's play' helps me understand the games mechanics a lot more than trying to work it out myself. I recommend ChristopherOdd.

[ChewMagma]

If you want an X-Com game, but stripped of the strategic layer so you can focus on pure tactics, both Gears Tactics and Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle are very good.

 

The trick to any turn-based tactics game is to absolutely minimise the amount of attacks that the enemy can make on you in their turn, whether that is by focussing your attacks to kill their units before they can retaliate, using status effects to reduce their actions, or ensuring your units never end the turn outside of cover/within range. Think of it as a puzzle where you are using your actions in the most efficient way possible to nullify your opponent's ability to act.

[MarkN]

4 hours ago, bradigor said:

@dataDaveit's on my list for a future play. 

 

@MarkNI beat the second Island now and failed at the second section of the final mission. Just got overwhelmed by the Vek and couldn't get in a position to stop them from spawning. 

 

Lessons learned though. 

It's one of those games where it can feel like it's taking the piss, because it has thrown so much at you with seemingly so little to counter with, then suddenly something clicks and, you think "hang on - maybe I have this". And when that works you realise you could probably have won so many of the losses that came before. It's glorious.

[Danster]

I mean, if you like ITB then you must also try FTL, although it doesn't play brilliantly on the deck I found. 

[bradigor]

2 hours ago, ChewMagma said:

If you want an X-Com game, but stripped of the strategic layer so you can focus on pure tactics, both Gears Tactics and Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle are very good.

 

The trick to any turn-based tactics game is to absolutely minimise the amount of attacks that the enemy can make on you in their turn, whether that is by focussing your attacks to kill their units before they can retaliate, using status effects to reduce their actions, or ensuring your units never end the turn outside of cover/within range. Think of it as a puzzle where you are using your actions in the most efficient way possible to nullify your opponent's ability to act.

 

I have Gears so gave it another go this evening and whilst I still suck I felt I understood a bit more after ITB sessions. 

[Dig Dug]

I'd like to claim to be the biggest fire emblem die hard on the forum but that's up for debate.
I love fire emblem but there is a learning curve to both the universal mechanics and the mechanics of each individual fire emblem game.

If you ever do decide to try fire emblem here are some unspoken tips to get you by in almost every FE game:

• Movement is the most important stat followed by Speed and Strength (magic for mages). Luck is near useless; sell goddess statues instead of using them.
• You often do more combat and get more kills in enemy phase than player phase thanks to counter-attacking.
• Sword-locked classes are almost always worse than the classes that can use lances and axes.
• Hand Axe and Javelin are generally two weapons you should have a stockpile of.
• Archers are weak because they can only attack at 2 range, meaning they often don't counterattack.
• Exp is (in linear FE games) a finite resource so do not force yourself to train units equally, figure out which ones you should be investing in.
• Don't worry about training your healers and thieves, they could stay level 1 all game and still be useful.
• Don't feel bad about resetting if a unit dies, we all do it and the game remembers it on the characters Win/Loss record anyway.
• There's no shame using the pre-promoted units to carry you, the weaker units don't always get to surpass them.
• Weapons have weight and carry speed penalties if a unit's strength is too low (the GBA games go by the constitution stat instead).
• Wyvern Rider is the strongest class, Pegasus Knight is also good because flying units have busted mobility.
• Forged weapons are borderline game breaking if you can afford to make them.
• Trading items can let you change a unit's equipped weapon after you've already used them that turn.
• It's sometimes fine to class promote before hitting level 20, especially if the unit already hit their stat caps.

Some of these can also be applied to other strategy games.

[MarkN]

13 minutes ago, Danster said:

I mean, if you like ITB then you must also try FTL, although it doesn't play brilliantly on the deck I found. 

Maybe FTL has changed since I last played it, but I hated the randomness. I very nearly loved it, but getting to the end-game with fuck all to play with ruined it. You know you can't possibly win before you even try if you've been dealt a poor hand.

 

And chances are you've been dealt a poor hand.

 

ITB puts you in a fight that looks impossible that you can almost certainly win done right. FTL often puts you in a fight you have to be really lucky to win. I think FTL would be quite a different beast if it was made after ITB. It might be one of my favourite games ever, revisited. FTL actually makes me angry thinking about how nearly fucking amazing it was.

[Alan Stock]

Some good recommendations in here. Into the Breach is a great starting point, I think with what you pick up on there you'll be well placed to try Advance Wars and other games of that ilk.

 

As for X-Com type games Mario vs Rabbids as mentioned is probably a great starting point as its just the combat and its simple to learn and concepts are slowly introduced. Once you're comfortable with that then try X-Com 1.

 

As for RPG type tactics games, there are some good older Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy Tactics titles on handheld which forgo much of the plot guff and focus more on the battles. There was quite a good Fire Emblem on DS I remember playing. Personally I am not a big fan of the RPG Tactics genre because the combat is less interesting to me.

 

As we are on the topic I just wanted to recommend to everyone the wonderful Dynasty Tactics games, which are old Dynasty Warriors spinoffs. Unfortunately I don't think they have been re-released in any form, and I think originally they were on PS2, so maybe you can find them on emulation. Another great game to try is the free Battle of Wesnoth on PC.

 

As for specific tactics like you mentioned in your post, it depends massively on the game. But some good general rules are to focus down individual enemies, don't send out lone wolves too far ahead (they'll get focussed by the enemy), move your squad as a team and stick close-ish together. Holding good terrain tiles like height or cover is usually worth spending an extra turn to get onto. Most tactics games let you hover over enemy units and see their movement and potential attack ranges, always check this and use it to place your guys out of harms way. Often these games use a sort of rock paper scissor approach to unit strengths and weaknesses, so always try and hit enemies first with your most effective unit, and conversly keep your flimsy artillery away from the enemy tanks and your tanks away from anti tanks.

 

Off the top of my head my all time favourite tactics games are:

- Advance Wars

- X-Com Enemy Unknown

- X-Com 1

- X-Com 2 + DLC

- Dynasty Tactics

- Fantasy General

- Unity of Command

 

Also special mention to a really old PC game called Incubation which is pretty fiddly but had a brilliantly balanced campaign where you control marines fighting off alien hordes.

 

Sorry to hear about your sight @bradigor, this does seem like a good genre to get into for you and its very rewarding, and gets easier with practice. Heck, I even got my dad addicted to Advance Wars and he's not even a gamer!

 

[ChewMagma]

6 hours ago, Alan Stock said:

Some good recommendations in here. Into the Breach is a great starting point, I think with what you pick up on there you'll be well placed to try Advance Wars and other games of that ilk.

 

As for X-Com type games Mario vs Rabbids as mentioned is probably a great starting point as its just the combat and its simple to learn and concepts are slowly introduced. Once you're comfortable with that then try X-Com 1.

 

As for RPG type tactics games, there are some good older Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy Tactics titles on handheld which forgo much of the plot guff and focus more on the battles. There was quite a good Fire Emblem on DS I remember playing. Personally I am not a big fan of the RPG Tactics genre because the combat is less interesting to me.

 

As we are on the topic I just wanted to recommend to everyone the wonderful Dynasty Tactics games, which are old Dynasty Warriors spinoffs. Unfortunately I don't think they have been re-released in any form, and I think originally they were on PS2, so maybe you can find them on emulation. Another great game to try is the free Battle of Wesnoth on PC.

 

As for specific tactics like you mentioned in your post, it depends massively on the game. But some good general rules are to focus down individual enemies, don't send out lone wolves too far ahead (they'll get focussed by the enemy), move your squad as a team and stick close-ish together. Holding good terrain tiles like height or cover is usually worth spending an extra turn to get onto. Most tactics games let you hover over enemy units and see their movement and potential attack ranges, always check this and use it to place your guys out of harms way. Often these games use a sort of rock paper scissor approach to unit strengths and weaknesses, so always try and hit enemies first with your most effective unit, and conversly keep your flimsy artillery away from the enemy tanks and your tanks away from anti tanks.

 

Off the top of my head my all time favourite tactics games are:

- Advance Wars

- X-Com Enemy Unknown

- X-Com 1

- X-Com 2 + DLC

- Dynasty Tactics

- Fantasy General

- Unity of Command

 

Also special mention to a really old PC game called Incubation which is pretty fiddly but had a brilliantly balanced campaign where you control marines fighting off alien hordes.

 

Sorry to hear about your sight @bradigor, this does seem like a good genre to get into for you and its very rewarding, and gets easier with practice. Heck, I even got my dad addicted to Advance Wars and he's not even a gamer!

 

 

Forgot about Unity of Command, one of the absolute best. Models logistics in an extremely elegant and intuitive way, enough so that you feel like you have gained a better understanding of that concept as applied to real wars.

 

Some of my other picks I haven't seen mentioned: Jagged Alliance 2, Fallout Tactics, Steel Panthers: World at War, Divinity: Original Sin.

[ScouserInExile]

I'd Gears Tactics worth a play, then? I too fancy playing something turn based, but I'm not really enjoying the base building and research elements of the new Xcom games.

 

Speaking of Xcom. The originals are great, IMO. Especially the first one. And the graphics are simple and bright. A big plus if your sight isn't great. And they can be bought for buttons these days.

[Danster]

9 hours ago, MarkN said:

Maybe FTL has changed since I last played it, but I hated the randomness. I very nearly loved it, but getting to the end-game with fuck all to play with ruined it. You know you can't possibly win before you even try if you've been dealt a poor hand.

 

And chances are you've been dealt a poor hand.

 

ITB puts you in a fight that looks impossible that you can almost certainly win done right. FTL often puts you in a fight you have to be really lucky to win. I think FTL would be quite a different beast if it was made after ITB. It might be one of my favourite games ever, revisited. FTL actually makes me angry thinking about how nearly fucking amazing it was.

True, FTL is probably more rogue-like than tactical. 

[wev]

First step as a newbie:

 

Stay

Away

From

Anything

By

Nippon Ichi (Disgaea, Phantom Brave, Makai Kingdom, many many others)

 

They expect some level of competence at the basics and throw layer upon layer of complexity at you.

[MarkN]

28 minutes ago, ScouserInExile said:

I'd Gears Tactics worth a play, then? I too fancy playing something turn based, but I'm not really enjoying the base building and research elements of the new Xcom games.

 

Speaking of Xcom. The originals are great, IMO. Especially the first one. And the graphics are simple and bright. A big plus if your sight isn't great. And they can be bought for buttons these days.

Reading this reminded me of one of my favourite moments from the original XCom. I used to be quite brutal, and name my troopers basically sniper or grunt. Snipers stayed at the back preferably up high, whilst the grunts went out to lure the enemy out (snipers had quite long lives, the grunts much less so). On one game I'd cleared out almost all the enemy when one of my grunts found a new one on the very far side of the map after destroying a wall - but he had no chance of getting a shot in. I scrolled back to my snipers - seemingly half a world away, but remarkably one of them had a shot. With nothing to lose I took it. It sailed across the map, went into a building through a hole in the wall I'd made earlier, and out of a window on the other side, continued, went through the hole the grunt had just made, hit the enemy on the tip of its toe, and killed it outright.

[Alan Stock]

Gears Tactics is supposed to be good, its one of the few in the genre I've yet to try. It's probably on Gamepass? On PC its still expensive on Steam, 35 quid and has quite high spec requirements, so I can't play it yet, but will definitely one day.

 

As for Unity of Command, its bloody amazing. Basically it's like World War 2 Advance Wars but with no base or unit building. Its hex based and each level is small and meticulously designed. You usually don't have many units and so its all about how to use them most effectively. Its a streamlined Panzer General with a few campaigns and different routes to take within them, depending on how successful you are. Ultimately the levels do have a sort of puzzle element like Advance Wars, especially if you are going for the highest ranks. One thing to be aware of though is there are a lot of poorly explained deeper mechanics which really require you to read the manual if you want to master the game and beat the toughest levels - something I  recommend doing once you are a few levels in.

 

Aside from its tight design two things make Unity of Command stand out. First is supply lines. The game is centred around establishing supply lines and cutting off enemy supply lines. This is really easy to understand in the game - roads and railways running from supply depots have a radius which give units supplies, but if units are outside this radius they suffer penalities, like getting weaker, running out of fuel and so on. These get worse each turn they are out of supply until they're effectively rendered useless. Units can move onto an enemy supply depot to capture it, or onto any point on a supply route to cut it off. This means that as the Germans often the best strategy is to punch through the enemy ranks and strategically attack their supply lines, cutting off whole cities and rendering their vehicles useless over a number of turns. It adds a whole new layer to the classic Advance Wars style formula.

 

The other thing is the enemy AI, which is really good. It's looking to do exactly the same thing to you. Over-extend or let units slip through your defenses and weep as your own supplies get cut off at a crucial moment. The AI will target vulnerable units, go for flanks and all sorts. It is a scary opponent for sure but makes all the difference in how engaging the game is. Highly recommend this game. The sequel is also supposed to be very good but its also a lot more complex and so I never managed to get into it. 

[bradigor]

The other main thing that gets me, is when it comes to between mission upgrades. Is there a general rule of thumb on where to focus my efforts? 

 

I know it will vary from game to game, but the example, is getting more AP better than HP? Or does it depend on unit? So focus on HP for tank based units? 

 

I'm mainly focusing on ITB and Gears at the moment.

[BadgerFarmer]

23 hours ago, bradigor said:

I have ITB, does starting placement matter? That bit throws me somewhat. 

It does a little. You generally want your ranged unit further back with space to move across the play area. It can target a lot of spaces that way. Close range attack units nearer the front, of course, but it depends on enemy position and objectives whether you want to put them together or spread them out. It's always good to invest power pods in extra movement too - the simple rule in ITB is that the more spaces you can cover, the more options you have.

 

As for turn-based combat games such as Shining Force, Fire Emblem or even XCom, often the most effective strategy is to move as a group, sending your first unit out a certain distance then tucking the rest in behind. In SF and FE, you bait out enemies individually or in small groups by checking their movement range and placing the first unit just inside that range. In FE you can often find scenery with defensive bonuses and use a character that particularly strong against the type you're trying to bait out. In XCom, when there's a possibility that you might wander into enemy sights and trigger them to take defensive formations, always move the first unit the furthest forward. If they trigger the enemy you've still got the rest of your units to act. If not, you move the rest in just behind, knowing it's safe.

 

Invisible Inc. is a different kind of experience. The good thing about it is that (like ITB) you always have all the info you need to make decisions. You can even see where guards are intending to go next. The only random element is if you risk entering a room without looking what's there first, and you should never need to do that. You can also toy with guards very effectively, e.g. by running through their peripheral vision on your way to a hiding spot to make them turn in a different direction. As a general rule, the main aim in a run should be to rescue extra units, and get the most effective weapons and hacking programmes.     

[SMD]

Hey Brad, really sorry to hear about your sight. I didn't realise it was that serious, got my fingers crossed that science discovers something that helps you ❤️

 

On topic, the Advance Wars games were the ones that got me into strategy RPGs, really enjoyed 2 and DS even though the latter is horribly broken. Fire Emblem Awakening was the first FE I played and completed, I sunk a lot of time into that. If you've got a 3DS or an emulator, FEA is gentle enough on normal that you can repeatedly fuck up and learn from your mistakes without it costing you hours in gameplay. On the subject of 3DS, Ghost Recon Shadow Wars was made Julian Gollop and it's fucking awesome. The game goes for peanuts second hand if you want a cart.

 

Also the Mario + Rabbids sequel is out very soon, that should be very beginner friendly.

 

But yeah, honestly can't go wrong with just trying stuff out and feeling your way through a game. I finished FEA on normal without properly understanding the relationship mechanic on the battlefield, it won't penalise you for not appreciating all the nuances like some other games.

 

It's a great genre and I enjoy it despite how punishing it can get.

[Fletch]

Sorry to hear about your eyesight, I can only echo the sentiments of others here. 

 

I'm also absolutely terrible at tactics/turn based strategy games however I enjoyed Advance Wars which I can see you are already playing and Steamworld Heist is a fun side on turn based shooter. 

[Gabe]

3 hours ago, ScouserInExile said:

I'd Gears Tactics worth a play, then? I too fancy playing something turn based, but I'm not really enjoying the base building and research elements of the new Xcom games.

 

Speaking of Xcom. The originals are great, IMO. Especially the first one. And the graphics are simple and bright. A big plus if your sight isn't great. And they can be bought for buttons these days.

Xenonauts is a homage to the original X-Com games, rather than the reboot. And a lot of SRPGs have no base-building, research or economics of any kind - it's just by new gear and off you go.

 

1 hour ago, Alan Stock said:

Gears Tactics is supposed to be good, its one of the few in the genre I've yet to try. It's probably on Gamepass? On PC its still expensive on Steam, 35 quid and has quite high spec requirements, so I can't play it yet, but will definitely one day.

 

As for Unity of Command, its bloody amazing. Basically it's like World War 2 Advance Wars but with no base or unit building. Its hex based and each level is small and meticulously designed. You usually don't have many units and so its all about how to use them most effectively. Its a streamlined Panzer General with a few campaigns and different routes to take within them, depending on how successful you are. Ultimately the levels do have a sort of puzzle element like Advance Wars, especially if you are going for the highest ranks. One thing to be aware of though is there are a lot of poorly explained deeper mechanics which really require you to read the manual if you want to master the game and beat the toughest levels - something I  recommend doing once you are a few levels in.

 

Aside from its tight design two things make Unity of Command stand out. First is supply lines. The game is centred around establishing supply lines and cutting off enemy supply lines. This is really easy to understand in the game - roads and railways running from supply depots have a radius which give units supplies, but if units are outside this radius they suffer penalities, like getting weaker, running out of fuel and so on. These get worse each turn they are out of supply until they're effectively rendered useless. Units can move onto an enemy supply depot to capture it, or onto any point on a supply route to cut it off. This means that as the Germans often the best strategy is to punch through the enemy ranks and strategically attack their supply lines, cutting off whole cities and rendering their vehicles useless over a number of turns. It adds a whole new layer to the classic Advance Wars style formula.

 

The other thing is the enemy AI, which is really good. It's looking to do exactly the same thing to you. Over-extend or let units slip through your defenses and weep as your own supplies get cut off at a crucial moment. The AI will target vulnerable units, go for flanks and all sorts. It is a scary opponent for sure but makes all the difference in how engaging the game is. Highly recommend this game. The sequel is also supposed to be very good but its also a lot more complex and so I never managed to get into it. 

 

I've tried Unity of Command, but found it really quite hard - and I'm not inexperienced with the genre. But then I never liked Advance Wars either, and as you say, it veers probably more towards a puzzle game than proper tactics.

[Alan Stock]

Yeah I'm definitely not suggesting Unity of Command for a beginner, some of the scenarios are very tough even early on. 

 

Has anyone played any of the newer X-Com likes, such as that Wild West one? And did anyone try that official X-Com spin off that was basically you controlling alien SWAT teams? 

[Stanley]

I’d like to put forward a couple of Julian Gollop games that might sometimes be overlooked but they are both excellent little games, especially for beginners. There’s no base building/management so it’s all about the turn based combat; and they are Rebelstar Tactical Command for the Gameboy Advance and Ghost Recon Shadow Wars for the 3DS. Don’t be put off by the Tom Clancy/Ubisoft license or anything either. These two are very easy to get into and never too taxing, yet still offer enough of a challenge to be satisfying. 
 

edit. Sorry I’ve just seen @SMDalso recommended Shadow Wars.