Help me be better at Tactics games

[bradigor]

So with my vision getting progressively worse (I am now registered legally blind) I am struggling more and more to play fast paced games. So I want to try playing ones that allow me the time to stop and take time to visualise. 

 

I think turn based tactics type games are best for this. 

 

Games such as The Banner Saga, Gears Tactics, Invisible Inc, FF Tactics, etc. 

 

However I suck at them and never understand how to balance attacking all the time with defending, healing, etc. Also how to really use my units effectively. 

 

I'm the past in games such as Persona I have managed to brute force through but that's not an option really in an XCom. 

 

So can anyone help me better understand these games and general tips on how to approach a battle and when I should be looking at doing something other than attacking 

[Melon_Bread]

Tactics Ogre is out next month, one of the best of the Japanese SRPG's I recommend you give that a go.

You can brute force you way thru these games sometimes, but you'll need to do a bit of research into the best class to help you do that. It was archers and ninjas in the previous version of Tactics Ogre but that may have been tweaked, we'll find out soon I guess.

[Popo]

I find my brain isn’t wired especially well to handle the many different spinning plates of SRPGs. I get lost in the detail of one particular fight and forget there’s a sneaky archer that moved into position last round, which is now in range to kill my most powerful unit. 
 

Sorry to hear about your declining sight, Brad. 

[bradigor]

23 minutes ago, Popo said:

I find my brain isn’t wired especially well to handle the many different spinning plates of SRPGs. I get lost in the detail of one particular fight and forget there’s a sneaky archer that moved into position last round, which is now in range to kill my most powerful unit. 
 

Sorry to hear about your declining sight, Brad. 

 

Thanks. I'll eventually go completely blind, so want to get the most out of gaming I can before that day comes.

[Ryan]

I'm a big fan of tactics games.

 

The main thing is to read the guides / information to understand which the classes. Then build your teams/characters so they reach their potential.

 

When fighting: it's tactics, so you try to concentrate fire. Protect healers, gang up on enemy units to kill them, make use of environmental features to your benefit (usually you can see your opponent's move/attack range). You want to minimise the amount of units taking hits on the enemy turn. If you have to take a hit, at least make sure you hit first + your squishy units aren't taking the brunt.

 

I'm a big fan of fast and ranged units. Indirect fire are also awesome if the game has them. They make it easier to gang up, your melee units lock the enemy down whilst fast + ranged kill.

[ZOK]

It’s been years since I played FF Tactics but from memory I used Time Mages a lot to halt / slow enemy attacks to my advantage, and increase the speed of my own. Not sure if that’s a starting job or an evolved job though.

 

That’s a definite tip - read up on job classes and how you develop them!

 

EDIT: As @Ryan just said!

[Ryan]

I have a huge backlog to play (small kids so no time) but am focussing first on finishing DQXII and then Octopath before I get back to Triangle Strategy and Fire Emblem.

 

I'd recommend against Fire Emblem - about 90% of the play time is running around talking to students Perona-style, not fighting like in Tactics Ogre etc. I don't enjoy games which have you spending all your time running errands instead of playing. Really wish there was a way to play and ignore that without getting punished

[Ryan]

Have you tried out turn-based strategy games? Before kids I absolutely loved them. Huge time sinks but great fun. Especially when they have a tactical component so you can fight battles yourself. There's something about building economy and logistics then demolishing the computer which is great fun

[MarkN]

1 hour ago, bradigor said:

So can anyone help me better understand these games and general tips on how to approach a battle and when I should be looking at doing something other than attacking 

Have you tried into The Breach? It's battle arenas are so small, and the fights last such a short time it's an ideal place to experiment. It's not your typical tactics game (often just putting a unit somewhere to get a righteous kicking is the best move), but it really is a great trainer for thinking about what your units can do, and how best to combine them.

 

As another recommendation - Vandal Hearts on PS1 is one of the most charming games I've ever played. Bastard hard mind, but I adored every moment of several replays I had of it.

[bradigor]

Thanks all. Will take that all in and likely come back with questions

[Paulando]

12 minutes ago, MarkN said:

Have you tried into The Breach? It's battle arenas are so small, and the fights last such a short time it's an ideal place to experiment. It's not your typical tactics game (often just putting a unit somewhere to get a righteous kicking is the best move), but it really is a great trainer for thinking about what your units can do, and how best to combine them.

Second this. I’m terrible at strategy games, but ITB is almost a puzzle game given that you can see the enemies’ next turn, so it’s a great introduction. Wonderful game too, and probably not much more than a fiver on virtually every platform you can imagine - also ‘free’ on phones if you have a Netflix sub.

 

Mario & Rabbids on Switch is another I found easy to play. It introduces the enemies and mechanics at a really nice pace, and it looks lovely and fun. Also very cheap when on sale.

[Lying Cat]

Unfortunately, if you're not inherently good at Tactics games you sort of have to work and work and work at them until you gain the relevant skills - pretty much like any genre. You don't just pick up a joypad for the first time and sail through something like Dark Souls, obviously. Most Tactics games know this and will do their best to teach you stuff in the early stages but because those stages tend to be quite easy so as to not scare anyone into refunding it's easy to miss them.

 

If the game has a mechanical thing going on, make sure you lean into it - for instance it's simply not possible to tactics your way around Banner Saga without spending some time specifically breaking armour on people. It seems counter-intuitive to be hitting for no damage, and unfortunately the opening few battles absolutely do allow you to brute force your way through if you want to. All of a sudden you slam into a brick wall if you're going to keep doing that. Further to that, if you're a save-scumming perfection-player, Tactics games can actually be quite brutal on the old ego. Oftentimes there's going to be lose-lose situations where you have to take losses and the aforementioned Into the Breach is an excellent example of that.

 

I'm sure there are people out there that play ItB on the top difficulty level and sail through without losing a single mecha or building, but for the rest of us mere mortals there's going to be endless difficult choices of whether to damage or lose a robot, or lose infrastructure that'll probably bite you in the ass a bit later. The real key to this stuff is getting into the mindset of finding the fun in these little moments and decisions, because unlike so many other genres with clearly defined win and lose states, strategy is much fuzzier in it's lines and the point that you actually lose or win isn't always easy to pinpoint.

 

So basically, I guess I'm just saying "git gud" or whatever. Have you considered having a go at some tower defence games? These are inherently 'guided' and afford structured opportunities for you to see "what you're supposed to be doing" and have the little eureka moments that bring so much joy. Start getting your brain moving in that sort of direction.

[bradigor]

I have ITB, does starting placement matter? That bit throws me somewhat. 

 

@Ryanwhat turn based strategy would you recommend to start?

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, bradigor said:

 

Thanks. I'll eventually go completely blind, so want to get the most out of gaming I can before that day comes.

I'm not rllmuk's biggest contributor, more of a reader than writer, but been here since the beginning - I'm very sorry to hear about your sight.

[bradigor]

8 minutes ago, Kramer said:

I'm not rllmuk's biggest contributor, more of a reader than writer, but been here since the beginning - I'm very sorry to hear about your sight.

 

Appreciated thank you.

[ox1973]

Lots of good advice in this thread already. I would say game choice is important - Into the Breach might look simple on the surface but it requires a good deal of thought. It's more like chess than a traditional SRPG I would say.

 

I would recommend starting with some older, simpler games and working your way up to more modern, complex tactics games. Some recommendations:

 

Advance Wars (GBA/DS). Start with the first as it's the best but they are all worth playing.

Shining Force (Megadrive). Again, start with the first.

Older Fire Emblem games. Sacred Stones on GBA is a good place to start - has a very good, lenghty (and not boring) tutorial. The Gamecube (Path of Radiance) and Wii (Radiant Dawn) games are good starters too, but very pricy now if you want physical copies.

Front Mission 3/4/5 (PS1/PS2) if you like stompy robots. I would say Front Mission 4 (PS2) is the best place to start. There are also re-makes of Front Mission 1 and 2 in the pipeline for Switch.

 

And for more modern tactics games:

 

Shadowrun Trilogy. I liked Hong Kong the best but all 3 are great.

XCOM 2. Can be hard as nails but very, very satisfying.

Battletech. More stompy robots, but at the more demanding end of the spectrum (both in terms of PC specs and complexity).

Wasteland 3. Post-apocalyptic turn based squad battles. The original Wasteland was the progenitor of the Fallout games.

 

[Paulando]

27 minutes ago, bradigor said:

I have ITB, does starting placement matter?

This is the kind of thing you could Google (I’m sure I did when I was playing it first time). There’ll surely be write-ups on how much this matters and good strategies you can use. You’re definitely thinking like you should be for these games though - scrutinising every action. Just a case of going through these slowly until it all falls into place.

 

In ITB you don’t play any of the stages for too long either, so you’re never losing much progress if you fail. Embrace the failure as it means you’re learning!

[bradigor]

Thinking of playing: 

 

ITB 

Advance Wars 

Shadow Run: Hong Kong 

 

As ones to get started with. As I have all three of those in the Steam Deck anyway

 

 

 

 

[Benny]

Into the Breach is an auto recommendation. It's probably one of the most straightforward and accessible yet deep turn based tactical strategy games out there.

[Benny]

As for the recent XCOM games: I do not recommend starting with XCOM 2 - even veterans find that game tricky to gel with. Go with Vanilla XCOM 1, as it does a good job of introducing concepts with a steady difficulty curve. Just put it on the easiest difficulty and I'd say it's a great intro to those kind of bigger games.

[Yobo Ahoy]

If you want something on the easier side to begin with I can recommend Valkyria Chronicles 1 or 4, and Jeanne D'arc on PSP. The latter is more of a 'traditional' SRPG but without all of the customisation (jobs etc) that can make FFT and TO a little daunting.

 

Valkyria Chronicles is in a more modern style, more like XCOM, but charming and has a sensible difficulty curve. 

 

Edit: another vote for Shining Force, I forgot about that. Played the GBA remaster recently, holds up very well and isn't too complicated.

[Triple A]

Sorry to learn of your condition.

 

One tactic (!) I often use in these games, is to have as many of my units as possible, gang up on only one of the opposing enemies at a time.  Generally speaking this thins the herd quicker and cumulatively reduces their number of attacks per round.

[Ryan]

1 hour ago, bradigor said:

@Ryanwhat turn based strategy would you recommend to start?

 

Tactics Ogre or Final Fantasy Tactics on the GBA. Vandal Hearts on the PS1 is amazing (need to replay it sometime). They're all SRPGs. Agree with @Yobo Ahoy over Valkyria Chronicles too.

 

Advance Wars I/II are really good too.

 

I'd avoid the original Final Fantasy Tactics, it's a great game but there are points where you can literally get stuck and cannot recover. You need to play it following a walkthrough. There was a remake on the PSP, play that version. I personally got stuck at that same point twice in the original and will never complete it.

[ZOK]

46 minutes ago, bradigor said:

Thinking of playing: 

 

ITB 

Advance Wars 

Shadow Run: Hong Kong 

 

As ones to get started with. As I have all three of those in the Steam Deck anyway

 

 

 

 

A great tip for Advance Wars is that the enemy AI will always prioritise personnel carriers for attack, even though you may have far more threatening resources in range. So you can ‘shield’ high value forces by using personnel carriers as sacrificial lambs.

[MarkN]

15 minutes ago, Ryan said:

 

Vandal Hearts on the PS1 is amazing (need to replay it sometime). 

 

Every time I've replayed it I've laughed again at the blood spewing out of slain enemies. It's so at odds with the lovely characters. It's got some of the best ellipses in a game ever - Ash's "..."s are up there as some of the best dialogue in games. He doesn't say anything much better than most characters do (say something, to clarify. Him saying nothing is better than them saying something).

[Gabe]

3 hours ago, bradigor said:

 

Thanks. I'll eventually go completely blind, so want to get the most out of gaming I can before that day comes.

Reading this has genuinely made me sad. I'm sorry for situation @bradigor and hope getting to that point is a long, long way off yet.

[Gabe]

Now to answer the question, I would not play The Banner Saga at all without having had some good grounding in the genre first. It's a brutal game even if you know what you are doing. I've always been led to believe that Advance Wars are more puzzle games than strategy per se, is that not the case? I'd also steer away from X-Com to start, as well. That introduces a lot of things to juggle (base-building, a strategic layer, research & development etc), plus in the actual fighting the AI cheats in a number of ways to make it artificially tougher (there are mods I think that address this somewhat). And, personal taste, because there is fog of war on the maps, you often have to hunt around for a bit to find the last alien and that is boring and slow. It's what put me off playing in the end and has turned me off that sub-genre (I really wanted to like Phoenix Point, which was X-Com updated, but it suffered from exactly the same issues).

 

As a starter then I would definitely recommend the Shining Force games on the Mega Drive. They aren't loaded with options (simply attack, defend, cast spell, use item), they don't overload you with systems that interlink or have synergies to figure out and you don't have to worry about customisation of characters (apart from promotions, but that is literally selecting an option in a menu.)

What they do give you is an appreciation of positioning, the necessity of concentrated fire, the pros and cons of different unit types and handling multiple characters and threats at a time. It also gets you invested in building a character up and seeing them blossom into something wonderful, because like the Fire Emblem games, characters only gain XP when they perform an action - so if you don't use them, they don't improve. It also isn't penal on defeat; you can lose characters in fights and the only penalty is the cost to resurrect them afterwards.

 

It is, in the nicest way, like a Fisher Price entry into the genre, but wholly recommended.

 

[mushashi]

In terms of beginner TBS games, old console ones are usually the best option as they don't have all the strategic optionality and systems of more recent ones.

 

So a 16-bit or 32-bit classic, a few have been mentioned already. Once you get the basics down, then you can load yourself up with the more complex ones.

[Strafe]

Gears Tactics is on steam deck and runs very well. I don’t remember it being particularly text heavy, either compared to say, Fire Emblem 3 Houses on Switch*
 

*it’s on steam deck too, I guess! 

[Paulando]

As someone who loves the thought of turn-based strategy games but is awful at them, I found Advance Wars lovely to play and very accessible for a newcomer.
 

However, a few hours in I felt the new mechanics started to get introduced a little too quickly, and I felt overwhelmed by the possible moves to choose from. The stages took quite a while to play too, especially if you keep failing them, and I felt like I wasn’t learning anything.

 

Was quite disappointing really as I was enjoying it and felt like I’d had something of a breakthrough with the genre until then. It’s clearly a wonderful game, I just wish it progressed a little slower.