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Immortality *spoilers*

Stanley

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Alan Stock

Alan Stock

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If you are religious then ChrichStand do you not find the game extremely untasteful? I mean I know I saw you hating it in the other thread but you seem to be more open minded about it now.

 

For my take I believe Thor is right in that although them representing Lileth, Satan etc is correct they are also just playing those parts along with many others in order to toy with humans. For example surely there's nothing in tales of Lileth and Satan about them actually making up Jesus to fool the people? The impression I get is that they are demons/demigods who have used religion just as another way to play with people and satisfy themselves. And the Lileth and Satan thing is one interpretation of lore that people made around them, i.e. its one of their many portrayals.  

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CrichStand

CrichStand

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21 minutes ago, Alan Stock said:

If you are religious then ChrichStand do you not find the game extremely untasteful? I mean I know I saw you hating it in the other thread but you seem to be more open minded about it now.

 

For my take I believe Thor is right in that although them representing Lileth, Satan etc is correct they are also just playing those parts along with many others in order to toy with humans. For example surely there's nothing in tales of Lileth and Satan about them actually making up Jesus to fool the people? The impression I get is that they are demons/demigods who have used religion just as another way to play with people and satisfy themselves. And the Lileth and Satan thing is one interpretation of lore that people made around them, i.e. its one of their many portrayals.  


Satan created False Religion to confuse the truth, in an attempt to stop Jesus from saving humanity. Satan is known as the Great Deciever. The Father of Lies. This is what I was talking about earlier in the thread, with regards to Babylon. Ninrod, Semiramis and Tammuz who are Gods associated with Babylon. Semiramis is Lilith, Nimrod is Satan etc. Then that story is retold through history with the same Gods, only with different names. If you want to look into it read up on Babylon and Nimrod and you will see who our governments in this world worship and why.
 

As I mentioned the personalities and traits of the entities themselves are displaying the personalities and traits of Satan and Lilith not just in the “film” clips but in the hidden clips too. It’s consistent no matter who they are playing. They also have the same aims as Satan and Lilith. To deceive humans, to stop Jesus Christ from saving humans and to turn people away from God. 

 

So what you and Thor  seem to be saying is that- The two entities in this game are demons (how if demons don’t exist) that came from nowhere. Humans came from nowhere too. The entities created the whole story of Adam and Eve and Jesus, which would make absolutely no sense, as the story of Adam and Eve is about the origins of man and about how Satan promised them enlightenment but deceived them and so Jesus comes to save them.They then made loads of blasphemous stuff for no real reason. Enjoyed specifically denying Christ and killing Christians for no real reason. And they did all this to help humans, whilst of course possessing and killing humans. So at the end of the game, after possessing the film that uses Satanic practices of reversing stuff that don’t exist because Satanism doesn’t exist............the friendly entities that just want to help humans have improved everything and everyone’s finally enlightened and it’s all great! Seems a bit of a stretch! 😂

 

As for my feelings on the game.......I thought it was complete bobbins. I’d say it’s now more like a 5 or 6/10 based on all the detail that’s clearly gone into it.
 

And no I don’t find it distasteful at all. Why would I? Just find it weird how it’s getting away with the anti-Christian stuff when everyone these days is talking about equality and fairness no matter what you believe in etc. Think about it - would this game get released if it used Islam? Would it get released if it showed trans/gay/black people being beaten to death etc? Of course it wouldn’t! But the Bible mentions all this stuff anyway, so it’s to be expected. 

 

 

 

 

 

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BitterToad

BitterToad

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10 hours ago, CrichStand said:


Satan created False Religion to confuse the truth, in an attempt to stop Jesus from saving humanity. Satan is known as the Great Deciever. The Father of Lies. This is what I was talking about earlier in the thread, with regards to Babylon. Ninrod, Semiramis and Tammuz who are Gods associated with Babylon. Semiramis is Lilith, Nimrod is Satan etc. Then that story is retold through history with the same Gods, only with different names. If you want to look into it read up on Babylon and Nimrod and you will see who our governments in this world worship and why.
 

As I mentioned the personalities and traits of the entities themselves are displaying the personalities and traits of Satan and Lilith not just in the “film” clips but in the hidden clips too. It’s consistent no matter who they are playing. They also have the same aims as Satan and Lilith. To deceive humans, to stop Jesus Christ from saving humans and to turn people away from God. 

 

So what you and Thor  seem to be saying is that- The two entities in this game are demons (how if demons don’t exist) that came from nowhere. Humans came from nowhere too. The entities created the whole story of Adam and Eve and Jesus, which would make absolutely no sense, as the story of Adam and Eve is about the origins of man and about how Satan promised them enlightenment but deceived them and so Jesus comes to save them.They then made loads of blasphemous stuff for no real reason. Enjoyed specifically denying Christ and killing Christians for no real reason. And they did all this to help humans, whilst of course possessing and killing humans. So at the end of the game, after possessing the film that uses Satanic practices of reversing stuff that don’t exist because Satanism doesn’t exist............the friendly entities that just want to help humans have improved everything and everyone’s finally enlightened and it’s all great! Seems a bit of a stretch! 😂

 

As for my feelings on the game.......I thought it was complete bobbins. I’d say it’s now more like a 5 or 6/10 based on all the detail that’s clearly gone into it.
 

And no I don’t find it distasteful at all. Why would I? Just find it weird how it’s getting away with the anti-Christian stuff when everyone these days is talking about equality and fairness no matter what you believe in etc. Think about it - would this game get released if it used Islam? Would it get released if it showed trans/gay/black people being beaten to death etc? Of course it wouldn’t! But the Bible mentions all this stuff anyway, so it’s to be expected. 

 

 

 

 

 

You're talking about the game as if everything that happens in it is supposed to be a Linear A-b plot. There were two demons and they did this and they did that and it's all about the bible. Is it not using religious imagery and equivalence to talk about film and personal image and the film industry rather than just being a straight up story about a couple of demons? 

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jonathanhoey

jonathanhoey

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On 03/09/2022 at 08:02, Stanley said:

I played some more last and unearthed quite a bit of new footage - it’s honestly massive! 
 

The thing that gets me with this game is just how creepy it is. It has that thing that Paranormal Activity had, where there’s something a bit evil about it.

 

I was fucking about with the rewind feature and somehow triggered one of those hidden play backwards bits of footage - in which every time I find it equally very clever and satisfying and also disturbing, and the one started walking towards the camera and then eventually looked straight into it.

 

It’s that fourth wall breaking, hidden between the cracks thing, and it chills me. 
 

If ever a game felt ‘haunted’ it’s this one. 
 

 

 

I said it in the other thread that bradigor made, but I'll repeat myself in here: this game really begs to be played on an enormous screen (ideally with suitable speakers as well). I've got a 1080p projector but nowhere convenient to set it up. I'm a few hours in and have seen some of the game's tricks but not where it's ultimately going - so I'm being very selective about what I read, even here in the spoiler thread! Seriously thinking about not playing any more until I've sorted out putting a projector screen up. 

 

The first time I really clocked the broken fourth wall was one of the bedroom scenes in the medieval film. They're having sex and the director keeps telling the actress to face the bed and stop looking at the camera. Then you go to the 'other' scene and the (angel?) is just staring straight down the lens. 

 

Then the more you see of her, the more you start to notice her looking straight through the fourth wall. It's incredibly effective. 

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Stanley

Stanley

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I played it on a big telly with surround sound and it is very impressive, but it is good on headphones as well, maybe even better that way I don’t know. But yeah when you’re being stared at on a big screen like that it is rather unnerving. It gets inside your head. 

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Stanley

Stanley

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It is interesting reading everyone’s take on the game, and as with all art people will take from it what they will. But for me the most arresting moment has to be The One miming to the Antony & The Johnsons version of ‘Candy Says’ the classic Lou Reed/Velvets song. I found it so tragic and heartbreaking. 
 

I mean, just read the lyrics, and then tie that into The One’s character and story.

Quote

Candy says I've come to hate my body
And all that it requires in this world
Candy says I'd like to know completely
What others so discretely talk about

I'm gonna watch the blue birds fly over my shoulder
I'm gonna watch them pass me by
Maybe when I'm older
What do you think I'd see
If I could walk away from me

Candy says I hate the quiet places
That cause the smallest taste of what will be
Candy says I hate the big decisions
That cause endless revisions in my mind

I'm gonna watch the blue birds fly over my shoulder
I'm gonna watch them pass me by
Maybe when I'm older
What do you think I'd see
If I could walk away from me

For me this game is much more than just about two fallen angels, or what happened to Marissa Marcel. It’s about the trappings of fame, how women are viewed and treated, by movies, the church, or the Bible, and society & men generally. It’s provocative and it’s challenging, but it’s incredibly moving also. 

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Thor

Thor

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What is very interesting is that, despite Crichstand not rating the game, it's clearly got under his skin. I think it's fair to say the game gets under the skin of anyone who plays it long enough. Which when you think about it, is utterly fucking genius. 

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therearerules

therearerules

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1 hour ago, Stanley said:

It is interesting reading everyone’s take on the game, and as with all art people will take from it what they will. But for me the most arresting moment has to be The One miming to the Antony & The Johnsons version of ‘Candy Says’ the classic Lou Reed/Velvets song. I found it so tragic and heartbreaking. 
 

I mean, just read the lyrics, and then tie that into The One’s character and story.

For me this game is much more than just about two fallen angels, or what happened to Marissa Marcel. It’s about the trappings of fame, how women are viewed and treated, by movies, the church, or the Bible, and society & men generally. It’s provocative and it’s challenging, but it’s incredibly moving also. 

Maybe it's because I read all of Sandman last month, but I'd argue it's also about the nature of stories, their importance, relationship to the truth, and their long lasting cultural impact.

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CrichStand

CrichStand

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9 hours ago, Stanley said:

If you found the game so awful why are you taking it so seriously and discussing it in such depth? 
 

You’ve played it for at least three times as many hours as I have, and I like it. 


Because it’s how the human brain works. The human brain tries to create order out of chaos. That’s clearly the main hook of the game. At its core you are piecing together the narrative until it makes sense. So, for you, your brain is making sense of it all by finding the metaphors and symbolism. Other people may be making sense of it and satisfying their brains by creating a linear narrative. Then there are people who’s brains are trying to make the whole package work and make sense.

 

As I’ve posted on the Immortality thread itself......

 

As a game.........there’s nothing to it.

 

As a film..........its awful.

 

The main pull is just making sense of it. You are rearranging the clips/pieces until they form into a bigger whole and create a completed picture and thus it satisfies your brain.

 

At its core it’s basically just a Jigsaw puzzle. 

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Stanley

Stanley

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Right, so going by your first paragraph, there’s not nothing to it. The game is making sense of what’s going on, or ‘creating order out of chaos’ as you put it. If it didn’t do that effectively then it wouldn’t bear the weight of discussion it’s attracted here, by yourself and others. 
 

 

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Alan Stock

Alan Stock

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22 hours ago, CrichStand said:

So what you and Thor  seem to be saying is that- The two entities in this game are demons (how if demons don’t exist) that came from nowhere. Humans came from nowhere too. The entities created the whole story of Adam and Eve and Jesus, which would make absolutely no sense, as the story of Adam and Eve is about the origins of man and about how Satan promised them enlightenment but deceived them and so Jesus comes to save them.They then made loads of blasphemous stuff for no real reason. Enjoyed specifically denying Christ and killing Christians for no real reason. And they did all this to help humans, whilst of course possessing and killing humans. So at the end of the game, after possessing the film that uses Satanic practices of reversing stuff that don’t exist because Satanism doesn’t exist............the friendly entities that just want to help humans have improved everything and everyone’s finally enlightened and it’s all great! Seems a bit of a stretch! 😂

 

As for my feelings on the game.......I thought it was complete bobbins. I’d say it’s now more like a 5 or 6/10 based on all the detail that’s clearly gone into it.
 

And no I don’t find it distasteful at all. Why would I? Just find it weird how it’s getting away with the anti-Christian stuff when everyone these days is talking about equality and fairness no matter what you believe in etc. Think about it - would this game get released if it used Islam? Would it get released if it showed trans/gay/black people being beaten to death etc? Of course it wouldn’t! But the Bible mentions all this stuff anyway, so it’s to be expected. 

 

I think what you're saying about the entities directly being Satan and Lilith make sense from those arguments, or at the least its definitely based on them. Given the massive religious emphasis in the game and its themes (as well as the dev company) it seems if the entities aren't directly those characters they at least embody their roles. I should point out when I say demons the vocabularly I used isn't meant to specifically be about demons from Hell, its just become common parlance for those type of characters. 

 

On the counterargument about the entities being specifically Lilith and Satan, they do say that there were many entities like them (its only recently they're the only ones left, and Amy is implied to be one as well). This suggests maybe they are some kind of fallen 'angel' or other demi-god that like to mess with humankind and treat religion as a toy to manipulate the masses. I wasn't at any point suggesting the entities were being nice in any way to mankind, its clear from the game at worst they don't care about mankind and actively abuse them. And at best The One is trying to integrate with mankind whilst missing the irony of devouring essentially human souls to facilitate that. 

 

I guess its open to interpretation (unless there are more clips which clarify) as to how literally the entities embody Satan and Lilith. Certainly there are clips where the One claims direct involvement in biblical events, like knowing Mary, and literally being Jesus. Of course if Satan and Lilith's role is to deliberately obfuscate the teachings of God, decieve and lie, these kind of clips also support that narrative of these characters manipulating the actors and the player. I feel like as with Barlows other games, they've deliberately left it a bit vague as to what exactly the entities are and their connection with religous events so you can bring your own interpretations.

 

On a different topic, I feel like the match-cut idea is a really good one that works great for accessibility, but I do think it has shortcomings in its implementation as other people here have pointed out. There's the issue of clicking the same thing multiple times and it taking you to randomised scenes, which leaves you never really knowing if you've seen everything that clicking on that one thing has to offer. There's the issue of not quite knowing how specifically the tech works. For example, I've managed to get match cuts using specific expressions on characters faces (like a big cheesy smile), but it only seems to work intermittantly (maybe some expressions in some clips have been specifically tagged by the devs). Using words in previous games really let you narrow down and validate that you arrived at a clip through your own deduction, whereas here its only if you have a very specific object or person to click on that you know you've found an otherwise unaccessible clip.

 

Some clips seem like they might be walled off until you have seen other clips (even if normally you'd expect to be able to reach them via a character or object), but its impossible to know without seeing how the flowchart of scenes works. That makes it quite frustrating from a deduction point of view. I also agree that it feels more random to click on things than enter words. As the game allows so much freedom in objects to click on, when you get stuck you end up clicking on silly things like lights and windows in desperation, and you may even get to a new clip like that. This feels less precise structurally.

 

Its hard to lambast the mechanic too much though as it has some big positives over the word inputs. You don't need speech in a scene to port you around. The script writers don't need to come up with very specific words and names to provide choke points in the structure. They don't have to be careful in what actors say because it will mess up the structure. You don't need arbitrary limits on the number of clips (although they have done that with the images, just without showing you!). Its waaaay more accessible and understandable to click on what you see and get ported to a clip with a similar thing or person. The transitions between scenes are masterfully done as well, its so seamless, and very clever how it zooms in on the thing you clicked on and then zooms out from the connecting item/person as the next scene starts, to show how the two connected.

 

Can you imagine what a nightmare it must have been to make this game and plan out the storyboards just from a visual standpoint alone? Doing it with scripts for Her Story and Telling Lies would have been bad enough, but for Immortality every scene has to be meticulously planned out in terms of props. Not only deciding what needs to be in each scene, but also preventing set designers from just adding stuff that looks good. They seem to have somewhat got around this by making some common things like boxes, or paintings, or windows, only link to a few specific scenes that are easy to find anyway, but it still must have been a 'mare. I can't wait to see a Making Of for this game to see how they did the linking from both a technical and design point of view. Its quite a feat to be able to click a characters face at any time in a clip and it silhouette the face and take you to the correct place. Presumably they had AI do Photoshop style masks (i.e. outlines) around moving objects to help facilitate this, and then they could touch up afterward frame by frame to make sure clicks took you to the approprate thing. Amazing.

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Thor

Thor

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Just now, footle said:

There’s an accessibility thing on Xbox where you can just jump between the accessible hotspots in the current frame using the dpad. It’s not always every face, or every object, for example.

That's on PC too. 

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CrichStand

CrichStand

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@Alan Stock Dude, Satan and Lilith are Fallen Angels. They’re the leaders of the Fallen Angels. 
 

There’s literally a scene where you see Lilith and Satan in the “film” footage. You rewind and the entities are shown as Lilith and Satan in the rewind footage. That literally tells you who they are! Their personalities match. Satan thinks humans are worthless. Lilith is fascinated with them and loves seducing men, but can’t stand being subservient to anyone etc. Their goals are exactly the same. The use of Lilith even ties into other themes in the game. As far as I’m aware, some religious teachings also portray Lilith as the first wife of Adam who left the Garden of Eden because she demanded equality. Pretty sure I’ve read or heard people refer to her as “the Other” too, Satan is known as “the Evil One”.  The version of Lilith I know is that she devours people, especially children and can take on their form.

 

Think it’s blatantly obvious who they’re supposed to be. Not sure how you can interpret them in any other way. Basically, it’s like me watching MOTD seeing Forest lose 3-0 to Liverpool, and then me going “I’m interpreting that as a win for Forest”! 🤣

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therearerules

therearerules

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1 hour ago, Monkeyspill said:

Has anyone got any theories about …

 

  Hide contents

… who the other others (other forms of Lilith) are in the black and white footage? There’s a man I’ve seen twice and a woman I’ve only seen once. And this is after unlocking more than 90% of the footage.

 

You mean The One? They're other forms she's taken. In one of the later scenes she exclaims she can't remember them all, implying those she shows are the ones she remembers.

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Alan Stock

Alan Stock

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Is that the clip where they are facing each other? Might need to rewatch some of the entity clips now.

 

Admittedly I should have done some more research on Lilith and Samuel before my last post. I have done a bit of a reading splurge online this morning and it definitely does sound like the One is Lilith. There's an overwhelming amount of information about Lilith online with many different interpretations and an evolving history in religion. That makes it very hard as a newcomer to the lore to get a grasp on her mythology, but here are some of the (many) ways she has been portrayed which is relevant to the game:

- seducer of men/femme fatale

- queen of Samuel or Asmodeus (king of demons)

- in some versions, the first wife of Adam before Eve shows up

- symbol for women's indepedence/women's rights (stemming from one version of the story she refuses to sleep with Adam and is cast out and hunted as a result, this is later expanded on)

- in some later interpretations she becomes associated with vampirism, which fits with the devouring aspect

 

One major interpretation of her not really explored in the game is that she hates and kills children. I didn't find stuff that referred to Lilith's sympathy/interest in mankind but more reading would presumably uncover that.

 

As for the Other One, which I've done less reading on, the closest parallel as Chrichstand says is Samuel/Asmodeus who are variants of the same theme, a fallen angel cast out from heaven who becomes leader or king of fallen angels or demons. In some interpretations he is literally the Satan/Lucifer but in others he is a seperate entity. And in some versions Lilith is his queen, and in another version they are both created from the same 'clay' by God. Interestingly Samuel isn't always depicted as evil, and in some cases is both good and evil, which for me fits his somewhat condractitory nature in the game. The other fallen angels may be the other entities who are vanishing that are commented on in the game.

 

I didn't find lore to back up the stuff about Lilith and Samuel making up Jesus as a story for the masses so don't know if that fits in.

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CrichStand

CrichStand

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@Alan Stock Already explained most of your questions in my previous posts. It’s Samael not Samuel. Lucifer was Satan’s angelic form in heaven. He wanted to be worshipped as God himself and refused to bow down to man, so he turned a 3rd of the angels in heaven against God.They warred in heaven and lost and where thrown out of heaven down to earth, which is why they are called Fallen Angels. They have fallen from God’s Grace and also literally fallen to this realm.

 

Satan has many different names. He has many different roles. Plays many different characters. But behind them all it’s still Satan. Look into the origins of False Religion and Babylon if you want to know anymore. You will then see how this stuff is still being worshipped today. The Babylon and one eye stuff is everywhere. Which all ties in to what the Bible and the Quran actually say and their prophecies of where the world is heading.
 

2 hours ago, therearerules said:

I'm not really seeing all that tbh. They might have been forms they adopted, but that's it. Would Lilith take on the form of a man? Would Samael take over a woman? Does fire kill them? Are the tales of them all about telling stories?


Answers to your questions are yes. Lilith could shape shift. Samael is Satan, and yes both physically and spiritually. Fire = being killed without spilling blood  and evil being cast into the fire - this is why witches where burnt. Yes - Satan is known as the Great Deciever and the Father of Lies. He created false religion and thus many false stories to confuse mankind and turn them away from God.

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