Black Panther - Wakanda Forever - November 2022

[probotector]

Thought this was awful outside of m’Baku, Namor, the montage of the underwater city and whoever turned up in a dream sequence 👀

[Flanders]

Re: the why has Marvel Gone Downhill discussion - it’s all the reasons everyone else has already stated but I do think one thing that has been underestimated is how important Chris Evans/Captain America and even more so Robert Downey/Iron Man were to making the whole thing work. 
 

Marvel likes to act like it’s beyond movie stars, but Downey was absolutely a movie star draw for so many of those films. It’s telling how everyone in the MCU speaks like Tony Stark and it doesn’t work, because they’re not Robert Downey. 

[probotector]

Except they’ve had lots of hits since they left? 

[Fierce Poodle]

I don’t think anyone’s disputing that the films are still financially very successful.

[Stig]

Yeah financially they're still massive, narratively they've been quite poor.

[Ry]

Had to get out the house as feeling really low. Went for a walk and was near the cinema so popped in to see this. 

 

I promised myself I wouldn't watch another Marvel film in the cinema but thought "fuck it, need to take my mind off shit"

 

I should have just went home and lay in bed in the dark like I had planned. 

 

Another bland piece of shit blockbuster. Felt even worse than before I walked in. 

[Girth Certificate]

Quote

I should have just and went home and lay in bed in the dark like I had planned. 

 

that's one for the posters.

[Festoon]

15 hours ago, Flanders said:

Re: the why has Marvel Gone Downhill discussion - it’s all the reasons everyone else has already stated but I do think one thing that has been underestimated is how important Chris Evans/Captain America and even more so Robert Downey/Iron Man were to making the whole thing work. 
 

Marvel likes to act like it’s beyond movie stars, but Downey was absolutely a movie star draw for so many of those films. It’s telling how everyone in the MCU speaks like Tony Stark and it doesn’t work, because they’re not Robert Downey. 

 

Yeah, the mega-wattage isn't there. Downey had it. It was a surprise Evans developed it.

 

They were essentially the mind and heart of the series, and despite Marvel's casting being very good generally, there isn't an equivalent to those guys in the MCU at the moment.

 

Except for in one case, Tatiana Maslany has the charisma and chops to play a serious role but she's She-Hulk which is a lighter character.

[Mawdlin]

Saw this today and it was fine. Much of it sort of washed over me, if you'll forgive the pun.

 

The valediction for Chadwick Boseman was well done but I think that was largely its problem: it couldn't get out of his shadow. Also, as has been mentioned several times, it had a very thin plot when you break it down and needed to be tighter.

[jcafarley]

It also needed to be about 30-45 minutes shorter.

[Nick R]

On 12/11/2022 at 21:58, footle said:

It’s easily the best phase four film (depending on how much you enjoyed the far from home fan service). For one thing, it has a plot. It has characters with motivations other than just “I’d like to be evil”. It has overarching themes. It looks, in places, stunning. It features both visual and plot callbacks to earlier points in the movie and they make sense.

 

it also has plotlines that are only there for the wider MCU (Ross and his ex-wife), and plotlines that a purely about providing a macguffin to trigger conflict (you could cut one character’s whole thread and I don’t think it would make a difference, other than that I don’t know how Shuri would naturally end up where she did - perhaps just make her an ambassador or something, but I suppose that wouldn’t set up (spoiler)?).

 

I agree with pretty much all of this. It's definitely the best film of phase 4. (I say that having enjoyed all the others - yes, including Eternals.)

 

It did feel long (seemed longer than Eternals and Endgame, in fact) but not in a way that I found tedious.

 

Shuri, Okoye, Nakia, M'Baku, and Queen Ramonda were all great to watch throughout. The film was at its best when focusing on them, and their relationships to T'Challa, Wakanda, and global diplomacy. But things involving "the scientist", Namor, and Bilbo From The Office were a bit more mixed.

 

Spoiler

People complained about America Chavez feeling like a "walking McGuffin" in Multiverse of Madness, but that applies even more to Riri in this.

 

The Ross/Contessa stuff really seemed superfluous. I had assumed they were setting it up for the US military to be a third faction interfering in the final battle, but nope. That storyline can be summed up as: he spills a secret, we find out he and Contessa used to be married, she arrests him, he's rescued... and that's all. It felt like a half-hearted attempt at giving him something to do.

 

I've never really liked Namor in the comics - in a lot of the appearances I've read, he's tended to be there purely as the butt of jokes about his humourlessness. And generally, I didn't like the undersea stuff in this film as much as the equivalent stuff in Aquaman. But in the scene where he's in a more charming mode, introducing Shuri to Not-Atlantis, I began to see why this character might be the one who might tempt Sue away from Reed at some point in the future.

 

 

Did anyone else feel that the film seemed to shy away from/downplay things related to the events of Infinity War and Endgame? For one thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all flashback shots of T'Challa were from the first Black Panther, rather than Civil War/IW/Endgame?

 

But the main reason I say that is that it becomes clear during the film that Nakia's isolation from Wakanda and grief for T'Challa were prompted by his death in the Blip five years ago, whereas for everyone else, it's the unseen death from disease at the start of the movie. But the film doesn't tackle how she (or anyone else) reacted to his resurrection in Endgame. I know that seriously tackling the true implications of the Blip/Snap is something that the MCU has rarely even attempted to do, but in this case, I thought a line for Nakia describing about "losing him a second time so soon after he came back" might have fitted in quite neatly.

 

Easter eggs:

 

Spoiler

There were two news tickers scrolling across the bottom of TVs during news reports: the first was about Scott Lang promoting his book "Look Out for the Little Guy". (We know from Ms Marvel that he has a podcast!) Didn't quite catch the second - something about a treaty with Asgard?

 

Mid-credits scene:

 

Spoiler

Oh, so that's the big secret about T'Challa that the Queen was about to tell Shuri before Namor turned up! Although it does give a darker note to her decision to enlist Nakia for a dangerous underwater mission: there was risk of leaving the boy without a mother...

 

 

[Nick R]

1 hour ago, DualSense said:

It feels like the blip might be the why the new movies are struggling…its such a huge event that it effects everyone and everything going forward.  I bet they wish they had worked in a reset somehow.

 

Yes, it's such a big event that the only way to do it justice would be for it to dominate every MCU story from now on. Obviously that can't happen. So instead, they've had to either treat it as a joke (Spider-Man: FFH), or focus on the small-scale horror from the POV of a specific individual (Monica Rambeau in Wandavision; Yelena in Hawkeye). The only thing that's really attempted to tackle what it meant for society on a global scale was Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

 

Speaking of MCU events that affect the world, there's also still the small matter of a dead Celestial sticking out of the ocean...

[Stig]

That was a different universe....and the Etnernals all died on their way back to their home planet.

[Kevvy Metal]

On 14/11/2022 at 09:59, Chindie said:

The Phase 4 stuff suffers from essentially being an epilogue in the main. They all tell

quite small stories and without the bigger arc nods and winks, and it's hard to generate the same interest when you've literally just spent years teeing up and then beating a universe threatening villain.

 

Black Widow is a side story which that only really fills a gap nobody cares about and introduces a new character, is perfectly fine but nothing brilliant. Shang-chi is an origin story that does it's own thing almost entirely but it's decent fun. Eternals is dreadful. No Way Home is Fan Service - the Movie, and in that lane it's quite good, but didn't really do anything earth shattering otherwise. Dr Strange 2 is basically an epilogue for A.Character smashed into Raimi doing My First Horror Movie and completely underutilised it's concept (which is rubbish anyway), but it's decent. Thor 4 is an epilogue for a couple of characters and wastes it's villain, and isn't as good as Ragnarok, but is perfectly fine. 

 

None of them, besides the obvious, are bad films, but the highlights are pretty slim throughout. It feels like they've kinda pulled the curtains on phase 4 without much fan fare.

I feel that this is very similar to my opinion on the whole phase 4 thing. I think Feige has said as much that the themes of phase 4 was post-Endgame closure, or epilogues as you mentioned. 
 

Spider-Man No Way Home absolutely worked for me and was by far the highlight to it all. I properly loved it. 

[HarMGM]

Well, that was a bit shit.

 

A plot that makes really weird shifts out of the blue, new characters that just appear and we're supposed to care, the film is all over the place.

 

Shame, especially as everyone is giving some outstanding performances.

[Festoon]

2 hours ago, HarMGM said:

Well, that was a bit shit.

 

A plot that makes really weird shifts out of the blue, new characters that just appear and we're supposed to care, the film is all over the place.

 

Shame, especially as everyone is giving some outstanding performances.

 

It shared that with Spidey NWH. Loads of people, paper thin plot, convoluted but in a messy, unsatisfactory way. Another typical Phase 4 film, just a big mess. 

[Bucky]

That wasn't very good was it.

 

That standoff at the end on the boat was laughable.  

 

They really need an overarching narrative to make people care, there was nothing like that in here.

[Bucky]

Alternative review.

Blackpathbore. Went on forever.

[Hanzo the Razor]

Black Panther: Wankanda Forever

[RubberJohnny]

I liked what this was doing for most of this, the big problem is that really:

 

Spoiler

It’s all about Shuri and seeing her grow and step into the boots, but the problem is she’s just not charismatic enough to carry it really, at no point am I really feeling for her, or rooting for her, or any of the things you want for a heroes journey. Riri seemed more interesting and down to earth, and her role is a glorified Disney+ advert.

 

Also Wakanda really do come off as a bit incompetent, don’t they? A futuristic nation defeated by a couple of hundred spearmen with no technology who are never seen more than a hundred metres from a river. Also every appearance since BP1 is them jumping into situations and unnecessarily escalating things while sneering at the west for intervening into situations and escalating things.

[Girth Certificate]

On 17/11/2022 at 00:33, Nick R said:

Speaking of MCU events that affect the world, there's also still the small matter of a dead Celestial sticking out of the ocean...

 

In the comics the avengers use one as a base like a big Kenner playset from the 90s  

[Treble]

6 hours ago, RubberJohnny said:

I liked what this was doing for most of this, the big problem is that really:

 

  Hide contents

It’s all about Shuri and seeing her grow and step into the boots, but the problem is she’s just not charismatic enough to carry it really, at no point am I really feeling for her, or rooting for her, or any of the things you want for a heroes journey. Riri seemed more interesting and down to earth, and her role is a glorified Disney+ advert.

 

Also Wakanda really do come off as a bit incompetent, don’t they? A futuristic nation defeated by a couple of hundred spearmen with no technology who are never seen more than a hundred metres from a river. Also every appearance since BP1 is them jumping into situations and unnecessarily escalating things while sneering at the west for intervening into situations and escalating things.

 

It did remind me quite a bit of Knight Boat, to be honest. "There's always a fjord..."

 

 

[Azrael]

I enjoyed this but it definitely had flaws 

 

Spoiler

Not a huge fan of Shuri and so not very keen on her becoming Black Panther and instantly knowing how to fight etc - and shrug off being impaled? 

 

Was hoping, and briefly thought, whatsername that went to Haiti would take up the mantle instead. 

 

At least there's Black Panther Jr to challenge for the throne now 

 

[Popo]

This was… surprisingly enjoyable. I have to say I enjoyed it more than the first one. Tim from The Office and Elaine Benes didn’t really need to be there, but I liked the bad guys. 

[yakumo]

I liked this, did not have much interest but family wanted to see it and it was decent. My only gripe is Riri Williams but that was about it from just getting out.

[Ste_S]

On 21/11/2022 at 11:30, RubberJohnny said:

I liked what this was doing for most of this, the big problem is that really:

 

  Hide contents

It’s all about Shuri and seeing her grow and step into the boots, but the problem is she’s just not charismatic enough to carry it really, at no point am I really feeling for her, or rooting for her, or any of the things you want for a heroes journey. Riri seemed more interesting and down to earth, and her role is a glorified Disney+ advert.

 

Also Wakanda really do come off as a bit incompetent, don’t they? A futuristic nation defeated by a couple of hundred spearmen with no technology who are never seen more than a hundred metres from a river. Also every appearance since BP1 is them jumping into situations and unnecessarily escalating things while sneering at the west for intervening into situations and escalating things.

 

Yeah agree. The film was fine until

 

Spoiler

Queen Ramonda died, as Angela Bassett was doing a mighty performance to keep the film together. Latetia Wright's Shuri just couldn't carry it afterword.

 

Or maybe I'm being unfair, as it seems as though the writing went of a cliff after that point, and suffered from the infamous Marvel dire last third.

 

Spoiler

The boat fight especially was comically bad, and almost felt as if it was phoned in by Ryan Coogler as a Marvel obligation.

 

[JohnC]

Coogler talks a bit about what the movie was going to be before Boseman died. Toussaint was still there, in a bigger way, and how his dads blip-enforced absence and return affected things. Namor was still the villain.

 

https://deadline.com/2022/12/black-panther-wakanda-forever-original-story-detailed-writer-director-ryan-coogler-1235206016/

[Chindie]

Just watched Wakanda Forever. Some kinda instant hot take thoughts.

 

Err... Classic case of there being a good movie in there but it's lost a bit in all the stuff it wants to do.

 

There's a decent amount to like. Its got a lot of good performances, particularly Angela Bassett, Tenoch Huerta, Danai Gurira, Lupita Nyong'o and Winston Duke. It does the eulogy thing quite well. It does this take on Namor pretty well. Its got some nice ideas to build a plot around - vibranium as simultaneously a nuke and oil allegory. Its got a really good soundtrack. It has a good cameo moment. And it's commendably female lead.

 

Unfortunately there's a fair amount of weak stuff in there as well. The film has an (interesting) theme around Shuri coming to terms with failure, responsibility, power, but it kinda never commits to it, and does the barest amount with it, which is disappointing. Letitia Wright doesn't have the presence, gravitas... to carry the film when she needs to. Her take on Shuri before was a comic relief Q style supporting character, which works well, but then she doesn't transfer that to a compelling more nuanced character.

 

It also has 2 plots that really shouldn't be there and exist only to further the wider franchise, in a bad way - Riri Williams and the whole Ross thing could be ripped from the script and change nothing, and neither plot is good enough to warrant their inclusion. The Williams plot actually undermines the driving narrative if you think for a second about it.

 

Its action is quite bad, with the nadir being the finale which feels half arsed, half baked and half finished. We get a rubbish CGI fest with some really weird non-physics that seems to exist because 'it's what we do' and a pretty rubbish 1 on 1 fight, which they then cut between in a way that serves only to have the action be even worse.

 

And while I understand the point of the scenes used to set up Namor's kingdom, they absolutely knacker the pacing. This is a film that is long and it feels long, and you start to feel it right when we get the Namor's people's backstory and world building sections.

 

There's obviously a big Boseman shaped hole in the film. We get a moment where the Panther returns. But they didn't return.

[jonamok]

Just finished it. Very disappointing. I like the first a lot, but this was just tedious, meandering, and an hour too long. The Aquaman cross-over was a crap idea, badly delivered. The only bits that resonated were the Boseman tributes that bookended it.

[Kryptonian]

Yeah, another disappointment for me. Phase 4 generally has been for me and the kids - they were massively into marvel up to endgame and would be seeing what films were next, who was in them, theorising plot points but now they don't really care. They were kinda hyped for Thor L&T but that didn't grab them much and were confused that the Eternals introduced a load of new people who weren't seen again.

 

I thought it was too long as well, although my youngest didn't mind as he fell asleep for about 90 mins in the middle.