Football thread 2022/23

[The Fox]

City sold two very hard-working forwards, so without them the rest of the team comes under more pressure, and Mahrez has declined physically a bit so finds it harder to beat his man.

 

Zinchenko is a superb footballer but he was never a key player for City. Obviously he’s massively improved Arsenal though, so those sales in hindsight were still ill-advised.

[glb]

That game on 15th Feb is, as the kiddos say, massive. Assuming Arsenal don’t do something stupid like drop points at Everton, or Haaland falls down a well.

 

Just hope Martin Tyler is absolutely nowhere near it; he sounds more like he’s commentating on paint dry than football these days. Hopefully Drury or Champion is on the world feed.

[Chewylegs]

3 minutes ago, glb said:

Just hope Martin Tyler is absolutely nowhere near it; he sounds more like he’s commentating on paint dry than football these days.

That's him on the Rashford goal posted on the last page, isn't it?  A cracking goal and he still somehow sounded bored.

[Timmo]

28 minutes ago, glb said:

That game on 15th Feb is, as the kiddos say, massive. Assuming Arsenal don’t do something stupid like drop points at Everton, or Haaland falls down a well.

 

Just hope Martin Tyler is absolutely nowhere near it; he sounds more like he’s commentating on paint dry than football these days. Hopefully Drury or Champion is on the world feed.

He’s been undead for the best part of a decade now

[glb]

27 minutes ago, Chewylegs said:

That's him on the Rashford goal posted on the last page, isn't it?  A cracking goal and he still somehow sounded bored.

Yup. He’s such a dinosaur. Should have been biffed after that Aguero goal. Cheers Martin, you’ve peaked mate.

[Naysonymous]

This week was massive for Arsenal.   It reminds me of the week in 2015/16 when Leicester had Liverpool at home and Manchester City away and won both games.  They should come away feeling ten feet tall and while I can’t see them getting the 100 points they are currently on for if the second half of the season goes the same way as the first, they’ve got to be thinking 90+ and if that’s not enough for the title then it’s because Manchester City turned into monsters during the run in.  Feb 15th is huge, if Arsenal avoid defeat then it really is on. 

[Gabe]

Anybody else think this season has got a bit of a 2019/20 feel about it? As amazing as Liverpool were that season - and they really were - there's no doubt they benefitted from establishing a lead early in the season and never really having any serious challenge (certainly by Christmas), which was of course the last time City had an 'off' season.

 

Roll-forward to now and Arsenal have also been incredible, but are also benefitting from another City so-so performance so far. Whilst they may look over their shoulders at Man Utd, everybody only really looks at what City are doing and they've certainly not been firing on all cylinders.

Either way, Arteta has got Arsenal really clicking and it is theirs to lose, no question.

[Timmo]

It only resembles that season because they both have amazing tallies. Arsenal have the 5th most points at this stage in the Prem with 50, considerably more than any Wenger season. I can't actually find what that was, but it's less than 46. This Arsenal team is pretty special and if they keep it up will be mentioned in the same breath as Mourinho's Chelsea, peak Liverpool and peak City.

 

Source.

[neoELITE]

10 hours ago, Naysonymous said:

Scholes was born November 74, Lampard June 78 and Gerrard May 1980.  It’s a three and a half year age gap between Scholes & Lampard, and a two year gap between Lampard & Gerrard. The different generation thing isn’t quite there but football has changed a lot in recent years, certainly post 2010. Scholes fell foul to the (English?) obsession with box to box midfielders. These days wide players tend to be the ones who get into the area and central midfield favours neat and tidy players. 
 

If he’d been Spanish or he’d been around today then he’d have found international football more willing to play to his strengths. 

 

People that don't rate Paul Scholes don't understand football. 

[JamesTW]

8 minutes ago, neoELITE said:

 

People that don't rate Paul Scholes don't understand football. 

I didnt say I dont rate him if thats aimed at me

[feltmonkey]

2 hours ago, Chewylegs said:

That's him on the Rashford goal posted on the last page, isn't it?  A cracking goal and he still somehow sounded bored.

 

It's weird isn't it?  He sort of sounds upset.  It's the tone of someone commentating on Iceland scoring their fifth against England.

[Art Vandelay]

In a world of shrieking idiots I find Tyler like a comforting old grandad. 

[Chewylegs]

2 minutes ago, feltmonkey said:

 

It's weird isn't it?  He sort of sounds upset.  It's the tone of someone commentating on Iceland scoring their fifth against England.

I guess he just hates his job but doesn't want to give up the money.

[multi]

On 21/01/2023 at 21:22, skadupuk said:

Just back from Selhurst

 

God knows how Newcastle are 3rd, they were shite, stats suggest a decent amount of shots but every single one was pretty tame and straight at Guaita.

 

Palace continue with no goals from open play, we have a lot of issues and lack strength in central midfield a solid RB and a consistent striker.

 

 

Probably 3rd because they're hard to beat.

 

Stats suggest Palace also failed to beat them.

[Zael]

Martin Tyler is 77 years old. He doesn't hate clubs, he's not disappointed when they score, he's not bored, he doesn't hate his job. He's 77 years old. 

[SeanR]

10 hours ago, Gabe said:

benefitting from another City so-so performance so far…

 

… everybody only really looks at what City are doing and they've certainly not been firing on all cylinders.

Or.. they are, but they’re “struggling”* as other teams have sussed them out?

 

*in city terms, meanwhile Haarland is on 25 goals… 

 

 

[Loik V credern]

On 21/01/2023 at 18:33, dizogg said:

Not that you’re bitter or anything! Scholes is a great player but arguably not on Lampard’s level and definitely not on Gerrard’s.
 

Also what it’s got to do with him playing with United I don’t know? There were plenty of other United players in the team at the time.

 

Really? A distinct level of quality separating Scholes and Lampard?! I know some Arsenal fans think Scholes is overated, maybe that's true and Liverpool fans think Gerrard is some kind of superman of the sport. 

 

I don't think all the great players who've praised Scholes are being hyperbolic about a player they just happened to have been asked about, I think it's because they played against United and couldn't get near him (as Figo says). People ought to ask themselves what great players who have played at the highest level value most, and I think it’s that. Awareness of space, movement and ball retention. Watching Scholes to me always looks like watching a master, he looks like he finds the simple things so easy, he knows where he should be, he always knows where every player is, he knows the next 5 moves he'll make, he knows when to play it short and when to play it long and has a consistency of passing accuracy the other two don't have. 

 

I think Xavi and Modric also have that look of a master, always in control, bend a game to their pace. Lampard and Gerrard are still technically gifted but I don't think they have that same composure and control. When has Scholes, Xavi or Modric ever had a look of confusion on the pitch? Had a complete loss of concentration and done something hair brained? People can think of 3 Gerrard examples just off the top of their head. Mostly the look is just after sending a long ball into the crowd. Lampard and Gerrard have their moments but if there are distinct levels separating midfielders I'd say it's movement off the ball, composure when on it. 

 

People were (and they were, in here too) dismissive of Modric winning the Ballon d'Or in 2018 and since he's further proved that the core qualities of a midfielder endure despite age because they've mastered the simple stuff better. 

[ckny]

Pep weighs in.

 

 

[Art Vandelay]

I don't think Arsenal fans in general think he was overrated. He was a better player than Lampard and too different from Gerrard for a meaningful comparison to be made. He was a snide little shit though and got away with it for too long. The thick wedge of 100 bookings playing for Man Utd in that era is going some.

[Loik V credern]

13 hours ago, Gabe said:

Roll-forward to now and Arsenal have also been incredible, but are also benefitting from another City so-so performance so far. Whilst they may look over their shoulders at Man Utd, everybody only really looks at what City are doing and they've certainly not been firing on all cylinders.

Either way, Arteta has got Arsenal really clicking and it is theirs to lose, no question.

 

I don't really understand this though, Arsenal just play their games, how are they benefitting from City being below their standard? Except in points and I'm not sure there is much difference for City in points at this point and last season, also bearing in mind their record points seasons are freakish anyway and they're not going to reach 100 points again this many years into Guardiola's time there. City are still challenging with two games against Arsenal coming up for it to all turn. 

 

People and the media aren't willing to go overboard with praise for Arsenal because we've seen great football up to Christmas before then a slump around March but as others have said, not one player in the squad would be considered for a world 11. Only Odegaard at a push purely based on this form. It's a better squad than Leicester had but at least with them you'd say...Kante is one of if not the best defensive midfielders in the world, Mahrez one of the best skilful attacking midfielders in the world, Vardy seriously one of the best forwards in the world at what he did. Odegaard at a push is mostly low key brilliant with tbf goal and assist numbers that show he's up there anyway.

 

Partly seems to be the most key player in terms of being unreplaceable but would anyone say he's the absolute best in his role? I don't know, maybe they would. I guess Saka is one of the best young wingers in the world but it's not like every game you're seeing excessive spikes in performance like it seemed with Mahrez in that league winning season where he got 17 goals, 11 assists. Saka's influence measured in more than goals etc etc but 7 so far is on par with Maddison, Trossard, Barnes, Foden, players who either aren't rated that highly or have spent half the season missing games. Two less than Almiron, 3 less than Rodrigo in sides that struggle for goals. 

 

Not saying Arsenal winning the league is a better achievement than Leicester because their squad is better, but if taking into account by the end at a points total difference from Leicester of lets say 15 points and Arsenal end on 96 points which would be a 26 point improvement over last season I think the achievement is still worth bringing up. 

 

Arsenal looked desperate to win yesterday, not sure I've seen a team more desperate to win, from the first minute not just being quick as the Rodgers 2013 team was or having the numbers in the final third as City at their best do, but like their life depended on it. It was odd because so much seemed to be riding on it like it was a title decider but when it's not for United it really felt like...ok win it then, you clearly really really want to, jeez. 

 

No one really thought Arsenal after showing the lack of spirit and fight in that Newcastle loss which was key to getting 4th that they'd go into this season as this team possessed with insane enthusiasm and unity and fire. Teams usually start the season as they finished it so I guess the 5-1 hammering of Everton on the final day was more an indication than the Newcastle game, just at the time everyone mostly thought...well it's Everton. 

 

Jesus' arrival seemed to speed up the attack but they're collectively energised, he doesn't need to return and they'll do the same I think (as they are), Nketiah's goal to game ratio is better anyway. I don't think Jesus' status and talent is that vast for him to dramatically change the mood of the club, I really think Arsenal would be in the same position if he never arrived. I know...it's his energy and pressing that is more key. 

 

Surely other owners are looking at Arteta and thinking that he's set an example of benefitting from patience and 'the process' when no one really believed the team could become so consistent. 

[Art Vandelay]

You don't need the XI best players to have the best team. I think the shift towards specificity in coaching rather than coming in and getting a tune out of what you have means that players don't need to post up ridiculous numbers, just do the job they're tasked with. Look at someone like Xhaka, he's just quietly doing the thing he's asked within the system and nothing else and looks absolutely amazing every week. 

 

Saka and Odegaard would be getting in any team at the moment though. I'm sort of glad Saka especially had a good World Cup and tormented Shaw yesterday as maybe people will start to see what he's done in pretty much every game since he came into the team. He's got literally everything and delivers with ridiculous regularity. 

[Gabe]

47 minutes ago, Loik V credern said:

 

I don't really understand this though, Arsenal just play their games, how are they benefitting from City being below their standard? Except in points and I'm not sure there is much difference for City in points at this point and last season, also bearing in mind their record points seasons are freakish anyway and they're not going to reach 100 points again this many years into Guardiola's time there. City are still challenging with two games against Arsenal coming up for it to all turn.

You really don't see how having City right on a team's tail can impact the pressure players feel, especially if they were yo-yoing positions every week? When arguably the strongest team in the league are dropping points they would expect to win, that clearly helps the mindset for Arsenal.

 

The pressure will start ramping up now, especially if City beat them when they play soon and we'll start to see if they can handle it. But up to now, I definitely think they, like Liverpool in 2019/20 will have felt slightly less pressure from their biggest (and only realistic prior to that season) challengers not being in touching distance.

[wev]

The "desperation to win" v Man Utd has been addressed by the team, they're the only team Arsenal have lost against so far this season, add in the historical importance of the fixture and Utds ability to nearly always get a result against Arsenal (I'm sure more Arsenal fans remember wins against Utd than It's fans remember wins against Arsenal) and that adds an extra layer of determination.

[Fry Crayola]

I think it's worth noting City are only "so-so" by the exceptional standards they've set themselves. Their record so far would have them closely challenging for the title in more than half of the previous thirty Premier League seasons, when you extrapolate points-per-game across the whole season (not sure what it would look like at the halfway mark). So while it's fair to say Arsenal would feel more pressure if City were right on their tails, it remains that they've dropped points in just three of nineteen matches played so far, which is exceptionally good.

 

It's a bit like dismissing Maradona because Pele is injured. In a game being played in heaven, where there's no Martin Tyler, and Paul Scholes gets his boots scrubbed by the tag-team of Gerrard and Lampard.

 

There, I think I'm up to date with the thread.

[Plissken]

Lampard has been sacked.

[wev]

Triffic

[glb]

The game on 15th between Arsenal and Man City is as much a test for the latter as it is the former. While Haaland has been ripping up record books, Man City have lost at both Anfield and Old Trafford this season, arguably their two toughest away fixtures (so far)

 

It's quite telling Pep had a Pep meltdown the other day after the Spurs game. Not quite Keegan levels of eye-spinning shouting at clouds but at least a hint that Guardiola isn't exactly delighted with how the season is currently going. 

[Art Vandelay]

I remain convinced Pep tetchy mood is to do with him resenting having to blunt force his way to wins with Haaland when he'd rather be getting the credit for doing something clever instead. 

[Plissken]

At the risk of antagonising Arsenal fans (Who? Moi?), I think that this is not a great team in terms of "historically great" but a very good team at perhaps the peak of their abilities who is taking full advantage of down/off years by rivals.  City are slightly off it, Chelsea are a mess, Liverpool are exhausted and Man Utd are rebuilding.  You want more evidence?  Who expected Newcastle to be in third at this stage of the season?  Basically doing a Leicester.

 

That's not a bad thing in any way shape or form, nor is it a criticism.  Part of the appeal of football is being able to take advantage of others mistakes. Arsenal seem to be the one team that isn't shooting itself in the foot at crucial moments.  That's the sort of thing that champions do, maximise your opportunities, minimise your mistakes.  They keep on doing that and they'll be deserved champions - it's not their fault that their rivals keep putting on clownshoes at key times.

[Petrousgyre]

20 minutes ago, wev said:

The "desperation to win" v Man Utd has been addressed by the team, they're the only team Arsenal have lost against so far this season, add in the historical importance of the fixture and Utds ability to nearly always get a result against Arsenal (I'm sure more Arsenal fans remember wins against Utd than It's fans remember wins against Arsenal) and that adds an extra layer of determination.

I’m not convinced Arsenal were that much more desperate to win yesterday than in other games this season. The reason we’re top of the league thus far has been the determination to just relentlessly tear into opposition regardless of calibre.