She-Hulk: Attorney at Law series coming to Disney + 17th August

[Mr. Gerbik]

1 hour ago, drmick said:

It surpassed what the comics did too in my opinion.

I'm guessing you haven't read a lot of She-Hulk comics then. One of the most famous scenes in her solo comic book series features her literally ripping open the comics page and stepping out to complain to the writer that she didn't like where the story was going. She angrily asks whether he's trying to get her book cancelled. The 4th wall breaking in the finale of the TV show was directly inspired by this scene.

[drmick]

1 hour ago, Stigweard said:

 

What Fierce Poodle said but also she's ripped and punched her way out of the comics before too, so it felt in keeping with that but done to reflect the MCU.

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Gerbik said:

I'm guessing you haven't read a lot of She-Hulk comics then. One of the most famous scenes in her solo comic book series features her literally ripping open the comics page and stepping out to complain to the writer that she didn't like where the story was going. She angrily asks whether he's trying to get her book cancelled. The 4th wall breaking in the finale of the TV show was directly inspired by this scene.

 

I am aware. But Byrne was also depicted as a typical comic book writer, and not a fatntastical you know what spoiler.

[Festoon]

11 hours ago, JPL said:

Each to their own, but we’ve seen that a million times already and I really liked the way they subverted expectations in She-Hulk.

 

I’m also not sure how having a big CGI fight at the end would have given the series any more of a through narrative, which is all I’ve said would have elevated it for me personally.

 

But then again, I think you’re trying and failing to take the piss for some weird reason. Why’s that?

 

That was the joke?

[Thor]

2 hours ago, Mr. Gerbik said:

I'm guessing you haven't read a lot of She-Hulk comics then. One of the most famous scenes in her solo comic book series features her literally ripping open the comics page and stepping out to complain to the writer that she didn't like where the story was going. She angrily asks whether he's trying to get her book cancelled. The 4th wall breaking in the finale of the TV show was directly inspired by this scene.

Ooooh, that makes more sense now. While I still wasn't keen on it, I was genuinely relieved when they showed how silly the hulk king fight ending would have been had they done it, and went in a different direction. 

[JPL]

1 hour ago, Festoon said:

 

That was the joke?

Oh sorry, I thought you were aiming it at me! It was very early though, that’s the only excuse I’ve got.

[tenrou]

I haven't read any of the comics so can't comment on what's meta based on comics or not but I was a fan of early marvel and I've been less of a fan of more recent marvel.  I absolutely hated the finale.  It would put me off watching more marvel shows.  Would be interesting to see how the general public felt about it and if it impacts viewing on the longer term.

 

I should say that I don't own the decision on whether these are good or not.  Happy for anyone to enjoy this, just saying as a more general viewer that I wonder if I'm in the majority or the minority and if it impacts people's perception.

[womblingfree]

Thought this was fun throughout and we enjoyed it in our house. Wasn’t expecting the finale to go all Metal Gear/Blazing Saddles at all but thought the whole thing was refreshing, like a Polo.

 

Next.

[cassidy]

Metal gear Saddles 

[PeteJ]

Definitely wasn't expecting the best MCU TV series, but that's what I got. 

[DeciderVT]

Agreed. Complete inverse to the trajectory of WandaVision for me, which ended with a bit of a cop-out after a bold start. Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel and this have been the most I've enjoyed from the MCU for a very long time.

[makkuwata]

So I fell down a rabbit hole tonight. Out of curiosity I sought out incel YouTube reactors that no doubt will do wonders for my algorithm. Most of it was exactly what you’d expect, a car crash where you cant stop yourself from having a glance but don’t want to stare at for very long.

 

Then this was placed before me and I recommend giving a watch, I found it hard to look away.

 

 

A married couple who seem to be enclosed in that bubble, identify with it and think they share the opinion of the majority. I haven’t looked into anything else on their channel, but it’s such a fascinating dynamic.

[Benny]

Why specifically seek out that nonsense and stink up the place and feed the algorithm engagement with it? All that does is signal boost it, and the discussion becomes about the culture war around the show rather than the show itself.

 

So much of the Rings of Power discussion is given over to that shite, which is exactly what those peddling it want, when there's so much more to discuss about the themes in that show, the craft in it, the characters... But all some people seem to want to do is stoke the fires of bullshit. It's so unproductive, it's just meaningless drivel farming clicks and making everything lesser whenever it comes up.

 

In She Hulk why care about the reaction it gets from quarters that are best left ignored? Does that mean the show's only value is measured in point scoring against some deeply troubled and sad individuals and how they react to it?

 

The whole "community" around incels or whatever just makes me deeply sad. I feel sorry that such people have sprung up and that they have developed such a warped and depressing worldview and attitude to women. It makes me angry that many of those men may go on to commit horrific crimes. But above all I never want to point and laugh, or point and tut. I want to know how things can change to stop men being driven to join communities like that or identifying with them. And the first step to that is to starve the media that is signal boosting them of attention. They want people to be sharing this stuff and reacting angrily as it just helps them grow.

 

If nothing else the lesson of the finale of She Hulk should be teaching here: it's that they are not the ones that should be the focus here. It's a bad story, so let's cast that aside like She Hulk and focus on something better.

[makkuwata]

It was the driving force of the plot for most of the series and I thought it worthwhile to actually investigate rather than rely on the tropes presented by the show and wider cultural discussion as fact.
 

And I found that video a particularly odd example of something not neatly fitting the defined parameters of the issue.

[Benny]

14 minutes ago, makkuwata said:

It was the driving force of the plot for most of the series and I thought it worthwhile to actually investigate rather than rely on the tropes presented by the show and wider cultural discussion as fact.

 

That is a good point and I feel I went off a bit half cocked there to be fair.

 

I think my frustration with stuff like this is I find a lot of the discussion created by this show online seems to have devolved into "haha incels", rather than actually engage with the problem it's decided to tackle. Which sorry I realise that's what you're trying to do there.

 

I think ultimately one of my problems with the show is it does seem to have a bit of a point and laugh element and "bad thing bad" - though it's not necessarily "incels" that are specifically the target, but the general shittyness of men which makes sense. Though people then seem to be picking over specifically the incel parts as that's an easy target I think, whereas parts of the show where She Hulk is highly mistreated by her powerful boss generally go quite underexplored, both in the show and in the discourse.

[hmm]

33 minutes ago, makkuwata said:

It was the driving force of the plot for most of the series and I thought it worthwhile to actually investigate rather than rely on the tropes presented by the show and wider cultural discussion as fact.
 

And I found that video a particularly odd example of something not neatly fitting the defined parameters of the issue.

 

Do yourself a favour and use incognito mode if you're going to trawl through the gutters of YouTube!

[NickC]

1 hour ago, Benny said:

I think ultimately one of my problems with the show is it does seem to have a bit of a point and laugh element and "bad thing bad" - though it's not necessarily "incels" that are specifically the target, but the general shittyness of men which makes sense. Though people then seem to be picking over specifically the incel parts as that's an easy target I think, whereas parts of the show where She Hulk is highly mistreated by her powerful boss generally go quite underexplored, both in the show and in the discourse.

 

I think this is a bit unfair on the show and the writers. It's a comedy. It's not on the writers to solve every problem women experience and take every scenario as seriously as others think they should.

 

They've highlighted some pretty important stuff in there, such as stalking, online harassment, revenge porn. Sure they didn't go into detail on everything but it's all real, important stuff that young people watching a Marvel show might not necessarily know about if they hadn't tried the new thing on Disney+. That we're laughing at the incel jokes and the neat way the show accurately predicts it's own online reaction is not to say the show doesn't have something important to say.

 

I think it's a bit of a shame a show like this that is brave and has a big heart can get it from both sides - it's too woke and it is also not going far enough in its critique of toxic masculinity etc.

[Benny]

7 minutes ago, NickC said:

 

I think this is a bit unfair on the show and the writers. It's a comedy. It's not on the writers to solve every problem women experience and take every scenario as seriously as others think they should.

 

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that - I think even a light hearted comedy show can engage with serious subjects (The Good Place being my favourite example) and if it chooses to do so then it definitely opens itself up to more analysis with how successful it is doing that. In fact some of the very best "light" comedies are so good exactly because they take their subject matter seriously as well: M.A.S.H etc.

[Benny]

And as to your second point: I do think it might have something important to say, so I think it's worth exploring how successful it is at that.

 

And honestly I doubt there's many places on the internet to explore that where the negative voices aren't exactly the kind of people the show is sending up, which makes it difficult to even have the discussion other than on here probably, unfortunately.

[NickC]

Benny, given the reaction to this show, and particularly the finale, do you still feel like the negative online reaction to this show represents a small number of troubled people, rather than a wider problem amongst men of a certain demographic?

[Benny]

6 hours ago, makkuwata said:

And I found that video a particularly odd example of something not neatly fitting the defined parameters of the issue.

 

I would also say there is probably not much to be gleaned from a video like that as far as it pertains to seeming an odd fit for their audience. The reason it's an odd fit is they will be determining what exactly the engagement metrics are for people who watch their videos, and they will be producing content specifically for that audience to drive more engagement with their channel. There will be no "true" or honest reaction in that video, just whatever fits their particular YouTube presence and business. Like pretty much most of these channels. And of course the result is the problem of that particularly toxic discourse seeming to be everywhere or in places you don't expect gets worse.

[schmojo]

Rather than acknowledge that this is a female pov show with a female creative team that tackle issues in a way -and to a degree- they see fit, @Benny seems keen to correct them and tell them how they've done it wrong.

 

I look forward to his reveal as the s2 big bad.

[Benny]

5 hours ago, NickC said:

Benny, given the reaction to this show, and particularly the finale, do you still feel like the negative online reaction to this show represents a small number of troubled people, rather than a wider problem amongst men of a certain demographic?

 

I think a good response to this would be when that "article" was posted with a headline of "all reviews bombing show are from men in their 30s - 40s". When there were a few hundred reviews at best. But sure enough, once there was some more engagement, the review bombing and anti bombing grew. Articles like that want to frame something as being specially a demographic issue, when it's not the demographic itself that is at fault, but the environment and discourse around them that causes, for whatever reason, this shift into whatever dark places they go to.

 

There is an awful lot of clickbait around that seems to enjoy stoking this stuff, under the guise of highlighting a problem that needs to be tackled better. It is in the best interest of that clickbait to make it seem like this massive problem is only growing, and it's all the fault of a specific group, they should be feared and despised until the end of time, and there is no solution so we must always fight them, not try to work out what we do about it if it's such a massive problem.

 

I had that issue with Star Trek Picard *makes hail Mary*, where the show spent loads of time pointing at 21st century LA or wherever, and going "these people suck and are all racist and they are killing they're planet and are stupid, oh dear". But it never actually engaged with that and explored it, just presenting a bad thing to "fight" without actually discussing why it's got to that point.

 

That's not anything to do with She Hulk btw, as unlike Picard it's actually a fun show. But rather just a rumination on that general level of discourse around a lot of these things, and where it often goes in media.

[NickC]

Well I find your takes here a bit problematic Benny.

 

Throughout this thread you said, in no particular order: male online trolls are not as big a problem as people and the media make out (tell that to the women who suffer harassment!), the target men they have taken aim at in the show are too broad (sorry, but this feels a bit #notallmen) and that they should have focused more on certain areas where women experience sexism rather than the ones they did focus on (I'm sure they are sorry). You've been down on the show from the start, and it's odd.

 

The way I see it: if the woman who writes the show wants to talk about certain problematic issues she and other women experience all the time, but at the same time wants to depict a female lead character who navigates that difficult world in a confident and funny way that doesn't agonise over things that are somewhat beyond her control and get in the way of telling the female lead character's personal story, we should support that.

[Benny]

4 hours ago, schmojo said:

Rather than acknowledge that this is a female show with a female creative team that tackle issues in a way -and to a degree- they see fit, @Benny seems keen to correct them and tell them how they've done it wrong.

 

I look forward to his reveal as the s2 big bad.

 

You see I really get upset when it devolves into this kind of response when I really want to try to engage with the text of the show and discuss it.

 

You're painting me here as if I'm someone who doesn't care about what the writers are doing or that I'm being sexist for wanting to engage and discuss things the show has literally engaged me with to discuss. It would do a disservice to the show more than anything if it hadn't provoked discussion.

 

And if you really want to suggest that discussing the writing in the show in what I'm hoping is a considered and fair way is bad because the writers are women then I'm not sure what you expect me to do? Never discuss anything?

[schmojo]

You're going to save the writers so much time by writing all this villain dialogue in advance.

[Benny]

5 minutes ago, NickC said:

Well I find your takes here a bit problematic Benny.

 

It's not "problematic" to try to actually explore what is presented by a text. I hate how that word is generally misused. It's problematic for J.K. Rowling to depict goblins the way she does. It's not problematic to engage with something and try to understand it, even if it results in some bad takes along the way, which I know I'm certainly going to end up doing whether intentionally or not.

 

5 minutes ago, NickC said:

 

Throughout this thread you said, in no particular order: male online trolls are not as big a problem as people and the media make out (tell that to the women who suffer harassment!)

 

I don't think I have ever said that. If you genuinely think I'm trying to diminish the experience of women with online harassment then I'm pulling out of this discussion entirely, because I can't engage at all with it if anyone seriously would think that was my intent, when I try to, hopefully, clarify that almost repeatedly exactly because the discourse around this often just becomes people accusing each other of having some sort of agenda, exactly because those trolls do exist, ruining discussion!

 

5 minutes ago, NickC said:

 

, the target men they have taken aim at in the show are too broad (sorry, but this feels a bit #notallmen) and that they should have focused more on certain areas where women experience sexism rather than the ones they did focus on (I'm sure they are sorry). You've been down on the show from the start, and it's odd.

 

I'm never daring to suggest what writers should or shouldn't have done. You'll find most of the time I'm just engaging with a show on what it presents to me on the face of it. I can only, and should only, engage with the art that is made the way it is, so from that I can either be engaged or disappointed with how it handles different themes etc. I don't think specifically engaging with something on the basis of who made it is particularly productive, unless it's art made by a total asshole, but then that's a separate discussion.

 

5 minutes ago, NickC said:

 

The way I see it: if the woman who writes the show wants to talk about certain problematic issues she and other women experience all the time, but at the same time wants to depict a female lead character who navigates that difficult world in a confident and funny way that doesn't agonise over things that are somewhat beyond her control and get in the way of telling the female lead character's personal story, we should support that.

 

I don't disagree with that at all. It's why I find it odd here that the take is that I'm being "unsupportive" of something just because of what it's trying to do. I like the show, and to me the best way you can "support" art is to deconstruct and discuss it, to discuss what works and what doesn't, and celebrate the discussion around that if it provokes it. I'm really not interested in *just* going: thing good, we all like thing. I want to celebrate something that's trying something different specifically by engaging with it, and that doesn't always means it will praise everything, if there are places where it warrants criticism.

 

I don't think that form of criticism should be limited to specific audience either, otherwise the discussions don't even happen.

[Phantoon]

29 minutes ago, Benny said:

And if you really want to suggest that discussing the writing in the show in what I'm hoping is a considered and fair way is bad because the writers are women then I'm not sure what you expect me to do? Never discuss anything?

Yeah, I don't get this either. You're perfectly free to not enjoy something written by a woman writer; if people decide everything from a woman has to be treated as perfect that's horrendously condescending to women. Unfortunately internet dialogue on every subject seems to have boiled down to being pro or anti.

[Benny]

28 minutes ago, Phantoon said:

Yeah, I don't get this either. You're perfectly free to not enjoy something written by a woman writer; if people decide everything from a woman has to be treated as perfect that's horrendously condescending to women. Unfortunately internet dialogue on every subject seems to have boiled down to being pro or anti.

 

And that's why I find this so frustrating. It gets to the point where I wonder what the point is of engaging, as if criticism is only going to be misinterpreted as not being an "ally" or being "problematic" for maybe stumbling sometimes and not having a great take. That's exactly what the trolls and disruptors want these discussions to devolve into, anything but discussing the issues raised in a show or how successfully a show achieves them. Because when you discuss those things: a) it highlights work by women, and b) if it makes for better and better shows, as like anything else heavily discussed, those works get increasingly recognised, improved upon, and praised.

 

And that's what those internet trolls would rather prevent from happening. Cause the discussion to eat itself and you never have to worry about those annoying shows with women in them as people with no ill intent are busy trying to police their own thoughts on it more than just thrashing it out and coming to a consensus.

 

It seems there's somehow become this unbalanced idea that I'm really down on it because of the criticisms I have made, but I love that there are finally shows in the Marvel TV roster with women in lead roles that also haven't been shit or half-assed. But I don't want to reduce those shows down into only engaging with them on the fact that the lead roles are women, but also on what each of those shows does well that is different to the others in each of their own merits, because that's great: it's nice that these shows are getting made so they can broaden the "Marvel" discourse, hopefully away from the trolls.

 

I think it would do those shows and the craft put into them by women a disservice to not allow them exactly as thorough an exploration of their content as anyone would with all the million other geeky shows there are out there.

 

Of course, if you assume the intent to explore their merits that thoroughly is a malicious one, then again, trolls win.

[NickC]

People think you are down on it because of your posts Benny. The majority are critical and poking holes in the show. You say that you should be able to critique what's being presented to you, but people are only doing the same with what you write. You are shining a light on issues you think are important to discuss, it's only reasonable people want to discuss them.

[Benny]

13 minutes ago, NickC said:

People think you are down on it because of your posts Benny. The majority are critical and poking holes in the show. You say that you should be able to critique what's being presented to you, but people are only doing the same with what you write. You are shining a light on issues you think are important to discuss, it's only reasonable people want to discuss them.

 

Great, then lets discuss them rather than whether I have some sort of weird agenda against the show, because that's just assuming ill intent and it's pointless.

 

I'm actually going to bow out of any more discussion on this anyway, because I'm very conscious that there are most likely only one or two women who contribute in this thread (partly due to the forum demographic), and all this is just noise drowning any other voices out and I don't feel I'm adding anything now.